PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

Another 2.9 million people filed for U.S. jobless benefits last week, bringing COVID-19 total to 36 million.  DOW down -360 points.
Before all you foreigners get too gleeful, I have  a question.  Where are you going to ship your exports too now that Americans aren't buying them?    Think of some of the other side issues that will be affected.  Minimum wage.  Those will have to go by the boards as people demand they need jobs and wil be willing to work for less than minimum wage. Well, once the $600 a week government checks run out. 

What other things are going to change now economically like that?

[James Clark]

You guys (Alan & Joe) are making my head hurt.   Which of my four preconditions that I mentioned to Craig do you disagree with?

For reference:

1) Russia did attempt to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. (A conclusion reached by multiple government agencies, the Mueller Report, and the Republican-led Senate investigation)

2) The Trump campaign had numerous contacts with individuals adjacent to high-level Russian officials. (Acknowledged by DJT Jr. and a variety of other sources)

3) Both the president and Senate Majority Leader were aware of alleged Russian interference during the run-up to the 2016 election. (I can dig up sources but don't know them offhand.)

4) You and others others on this site were arguing that, regardless of political advantage, perceived or real, the Trump administration had/has the right to investigate Joe Biden because his son's financial dealings could cause a potential conflict of interest and/or could be revealed as corrupt. (you can search in the search bar above if you don't recall )

[Paulo Bizarro]

Please, show us all where you can find that Trump thinks the virus is a hoax.  Continuing the lie only makes you look silly.

In February, when he stated that the coronavirus was the Democrats "new hoax". That was in the pahse where he was still downplaying the seriousness of the virus. But remember: he is the guy that said that tens of thousands dying from it is  "Fantastic", "tremendous job" he is doing, in his own words.

Wasn't America supposed to be great again in the Easter? Wait - now it is in q4 2020, or 2021, but of course only if he is reelected. It would be a great Monty Piton gig, if it were not for the dead and millions of unemployed. But it's the Chinese fault, of course.

[Craig Lamson]

Once again, correct me if I'm wrong (Admittedly I haven't been following this super-closely yet), but since Biden was asking, Biden clearly didn't know who the subject in question was, correct, so how could he have been targeting Flynn specifically?  If you were transitioning what is, literally, the most important job in the world in a period where you were concerned about what was going on, wouldn't you want to know everything you could to transition it properly.

Another possibly - in an ongoing investigation (which we both agree was legitimate), wouldn't you want to do everything you could up until the day you left to ensure that it was left in good hands?  Yes, this plays into the "deep state is out to get Trump" narrative, but honestly - if there was a valid concern, the investigative agencies have a duty to the country to follow where it leads, do they not?   Regardless of what you believe the Mueller Report, House, and Senate investigation eventually concluded, in January of 2017, there was still a lot of legitimate investigating to do regardless of who was in the Oval Office.

Lets deal wiht Biden first.  From the Hill article:  ( written by J. Turley) 

"For his part, Biden has repeatedly denied knowledge of the investigation. Just the day before the latest disclosure, George Stephanopoulos asked Biden in an interview what he knew of the Flynn investigation. Biden was adamant that “I know nothing about those moves to investigate Michael Flynn” and called it all a “diversion … a game this guy [Trump] plays.” Stephanopoulos then pointed out that recent disclosure of a meeting on the Flynn investigation in January 2017 with Obama and Comey. Biden said he did know about the investigation: “I was aware that there was, that they asked for an investigation, but that’s all I know about.” That also is not true if Biden took the relatively uncommon step for a vice president of demanding the unmasking of Flynn information."

So Was Biden just doing his due dilligence to protect the country?  Or was it nefarious?

[JoeKitchen]

Once again, correct me if I'm wrong (Admittedly I haven't been following this super-closely yet), but since Biden was asking, Biden clearly didn't know who the subject in question was, correct, so how could he have been targeting Flynn specifically?  If you were transitioning what is, literally, the most important job in the world in a period where you were concerned about what was going on, wouldn't you want to know everything you could to transition it properly.

Another possibly - in an ongoing investigation (which we both agree was legitimate), wouldn't you want to do everything you could up until the day you left to ensure that it was left in good hands?  Yes, this plays into the "deep state is out to get Trump" narrative, but honestly - if there was a valid concern, the investigative agencies have a duty to the country to follow where it leads, do they not?   Regardless of what you believe the Mueller Report, House, and Senate investigation eventually concluded, in January of 2017, there was still a lot of legitimate investigating to do regardless of who was in the Oval Office.

I would be inclined to agree with you on this if it were not for all of the other information that has come out to date.  For instance the IG report released last December on the FBI found that several mistakes were made (17 I believe) in the initial Russia investigation all of which went against Trump. 

I believe that both the Obama administration and the those in government disliked Trump so much that they allowed themselves to believe he must be dirty and used confirmation bias to justify to themselves that he was.  This prevented them from making an objective review of any evidence, not to mention ignore and withhold exculpatory evidence, and that is disturbing. 

[LesPalenik]

Another 2.9 million people filed for U.S. jobless benefits last week, bringing COVID-19 total to 36 million.  DOW down -360 points.
Before all you foreigners get too gleeful, I have  a question.  Where are you going to ship your exports too now that Americans aren't buying them?    Think of some of the other side issues that will be affected.  Minimum wage.  Those will have to go by the boards as people demand they need jobs and wil be willing to work for less than minimum wage. Well, once the $600 a week government checks run out. 

What other things are going to change now economically like that?

Lot of exports into the western countries were inferior quality, disposable products. It won't be a big loss to stop bringing that junk here. Also a lot less pollution.

[JoeKitchen]

In February, when he stated that the coronavirus was the Democrats "new hoax". That was in the pahse where he was still downplaying the seriousness of the virus. But remember: he is the guy that said that tens of thousands dying from it is  "Fantastic", "tremendous job" he is doing, in his own words.

Wasn't America supposed to be great again in the Easter? Wait - now it is in q4 2020, or 2021, but of course only if he is reelected. It would be a great Monty Piton gig, if it were not for the dead and millions of unemployed. But it's the Chinese fault, of course.

Only he did not say that!

He said, on Feb. 28, "Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus, you know that right? Coronavirus, they’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, “How’s President Trump doing?” They go, “Oh, not good, not good.” They have no clue. They don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa. They can’t even count. No, they can’t. They can’t count their votes.

One of my people came up to me and said, “Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.” That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax."

All fact check sites list this as pants on fire false.  Democratic Ad Twists Trump’s ‘Hoax’ Comment

[Craig Lamson]

In February, when he stated that the coronavirus was the Democrats "new hoax". That was in the pahse where he was still downplaying the seriousness of the virus. But remember: he is the guy that said that tens of thousands dying from it is  "Fantastic", "tremendous job" he is doing, in his own words.

Wasn't America supposed to be great again in the Easter? Wait - now it is in q4 2020, or 2021, but of course only if he is reelected. It would be a great Monty Piton gig, if it were not for the dead and millions of unemployed. But it's the Chinese fault, of course.

So you admit he never said the virus was a hoax.  Thanks for that.  And if you look he was saying the attempts by  the democrats to go after him over the virus, was the hoax.  You really might want to research what was actually said about all of this instead of reading the fake news about it.  Its just making you look silly.

[Alan Klein]

You guys (Alan & Joe) are making my head hurt.   Which of my four preconditions that I mentioned to Craig do you disagree with?

For reference:

1) Russia did attempt to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. (A conclusion reached by multiple government agencies, the Mueller Report, and the Republican-led Senate investigation)

2) The Trump campaign had numerous contacts with individuals adjacent to high-level Russian officials. (Acknowledged by DJT Jr. and a variety of other sources)

3) Both the president and Senate Majority Leader were aware of alleged Russian interference during the run-up to the 2016 election. (I can dig up sources but don't know them offhand.)

4) You and others others on this site were arguing that, regardless of political advantage, perceived or real, the Trump administration had/has the right to investigate Joe Biden because his son's financial dealings could cause a potential conflict of interest and/or could be revealed as corrupt. (you can search in the search bar above if you don't recall )

So because Trump called for an investigation of Biden for apparent illegal activities in Ukraine four years later, you use that to justify an attempted coup against the president of the United States?  The fact the phony dossier and continued perjury by the FBI to the FISA court are acceptable?   That illegal release of unmasked American names (Flynn) are equal?  These all happened long before Ukraine and are totally independent of anything related to it.  The Obama administration was up to its neck in using the secret services of America to undermine the new president.   

[James Clark]

Lets deal wiht Biden first.  From the Hill article:  ( written by J. Turley) 

"For his part, Biden has repeatedly denied knowledge of the investigation. Just the day before the latest disclosure, George Stephanopoulos asked Biden in an interview what he knew of the Flynn investigation. Biden was adamant that “I know nothing about those moves to investigate Michael Flynn” and called it all a “diversion … a game this guy [Trump] plays.” Stephanopoulos then pointed out that recent disclosure of a meeting on the Flynn investigation in January 2017 with Obama and Comey. Biden said he did know about the investigation: “I was aware that there was, that they asked for an investigation, but that’s all I know about.” That also is not true if Biden took the relatively uncommon step for a vice president of demanding the unmasking of Flynn information."

So Was Biden just doing his due dilligence to protect the country?  Or was it nefarious?

I don't know.  Again, assuming Biden didn't know who the players were before he asked (otherwise, why ask?), it seems reasonable that he wasn't aware of any investigation targeting Flynn (edit - specifically targeting Flynn).  It also seems reasonable to assume that Biden knew the generalities of an investigation into Russian interference.

As for whether his interest was "nefarious," I assume you misspelled "political."     And again, I simply don't know.  I do know that my conservative friends right here on LULA have spent months telling me, quite pointedly, that doing something because it has massive political advantage isn't illegal - it's to be expected an accepted, even in the service of expanding one's own power.

[James Clark]

So because Trump called for an investigation of Biden for apparent illegal activities in Ukraine four years later, you use that to justify an attempted coup against the president of the United States?  The fact the phony dossier and continued perjury by the FBI to the FISA court are acceptable?   That illegal release of unmasked American names (Flynn) are equal?  These all happened long before Ukraine and are totally independent of anything related to it.  The Obama administration was up to its neck in using the secret services of America to undermine the new president.   

Alan, do you disagree with any of my four original statements?

[Alan Klein]

Lot of exports into the western countries were inferior quality, disposable products. It won't be a big loss to stop bringing that junk here. Also a lot less pollution.

I was referring to Western exports to America.  Canada, Europe, etc.  When Americans stop buying, the whole world feels it.  Those who laugh at American difficulties right now, who keep suggesting that Americans stay home and don't work and that our leaders are stupid trying to open our economy, will be right behind us in the unemployment lines when they have no one to sell their products too.  Do they think the Chinese will make up the slack? 

[Craig Lamson]

I don't know.  Again, assuming Biden didn't know who the players were before he asked (otherwise, why ask?), it seems reasonable that he wasn't aware of any investigation targeting Flynn.  It also seems reasonable to assume that Biden knew the generalities of an investigation into Russian interference.

As for whether his interest was "nefarious," I assume you misspelled "political."     And again, I simply don't know.  I do know that my conservative friends right here on LULA have spent months telling me, quite pointedly, that doing something that has massive political advantage isn't illegal - it's to be expected an accepted, even in the service of expanding one's own power.

But he was aware of the Flynn investigation.  He admitted it. 

So lets cut to the chase. We both admit its not unusual for politicians to try and undermine their foes during an election season for political gain.  Its one thing to ask pubically for an investigation based on facts known to the public.  Its quite another to do so in secret and then leak it to the press.  But even then, lets stipulate this is just politics.

What we are talking about here is going after a President - elect  and doing everything in your political power, while still retaining that power, to harm the incoming President.  That my friend is not politics as usual, or at least it should not be.  Does that not bother you?

[Alan Klein]

Alan, do you disagree with any of my four original statements?

I answer your post in #4388:
So because Trump called for an investigation of Biden for apparent illegal activities in Ukraine four years later, you use that to justify an attempted coup against the president of the United States?  The fact the phony dossier and continued perjury by the FBI to the FISA court are acceptable?   That illegal release of unmasked American names (Flynn) are equal?  These all happened long before Ukraine and are totally independent of anything related to it.  The Obama administration was up to its neck in using the secret services of America to undermine the new president.   

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...(otherwise, why ask?)...

Dementia?

[James Clark]

Dementia?

And therefore without malicious intent!  Case closed.

[JoeKitchen]

Dementia?

And therefore without malicious intent!  Case closed.

Which would also prove Biden is unfit to serve. 

[Craig Lamson]

And therefore without malicious intent!  Case closed.

Well I have to give it to you James, thats a good comeback.

[James Clark]

But he was aware of the Flynn investigation.  He admitted it. 

So lets cut to the chase. We both admit its not unusual for politicians to try and undermine their foes during an election season for political gain.  Its one thing to ask pubically for an investigation based on facts known to the public.  Its quite another to do so in secret and then leak it to the press.  But even then, lets stipulate this is just politics.

What we are talking about here is going after a President - elect  and doing everything in your political power, while still retaining that power, to harm the incoming President.  That my friend is not politics as usual, or at least it should not be.  Does that not bother you?

I edited my initial comment to note that Biden wouldn't have known *specifically* of Flynn's part in the investigation, which I think is logical...

Anyway, to answer your question, in a overreaching sense, yes, I find it very troubling - in fact, disqualifying - when an executive uses the unchecked power of the government to conduct purely political persecutions. (It's why I'm so concerned with the current administration replacing legit oversight with political lackeys.)

What I'm not seeing here is why you think this meets that standard.  We agree that the investigation had a reasonable initial foundation (or at least we agree that numerous bipartisan professionals thought so at the time), and we agree that Trump associates were in direct contact with people we again, both agree were trying to monkey with the election.

So what am I supposed to be concerned about in mid-January 2017?   (I'm not trying to be dense or contrarian here - I legitimately can't understand how, even in the worst light, this is more egregious that what Trump tried to do to Biden re: Ukraine, which you were defending.)

[LesPalenik]

I was referring to Western exports to America.  Canada, Europe, etc.  When Americans stop buying, the whole world feels it.  Those who laugh at American difficulties right now, who keep suggesting that Americans stay home and don't work and that our leaders are stupid trying to open our economy, will be right behind us in the unemployment lines when they have no one to sell their products too.  Do they think the Chinese will make up the slack?

Good products will always sell (look at iPhones and iPads). It's the junk that will suffer, good riddance for that.