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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495110 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4000 on: May 08, 2020, 09:44:16 am »

Nursing homes protection has been neglected - almost in any country. In the netherlands 40% of the nursing homes had some infected resident.

This is the biggest tragedy in all of this, and something that was actually foreseeable and, at the very least, able to be mitigated. 

Insofar as the spread of the disease, this is the one aspect I hold politicians responsible for. 
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4001 on: May 08, 2020, 10:03:07 am »

It's what all the data says!

Yes, you and Ferguson are in agreement here. His model uses an Infection Fatality Rate of 0.9%.

99.1% of those infected will survive.

His 2.2 million predicted US deaths comes from taking that 0.9% fatality rate and applying it to 80% (herd immunity) of the population (325 million). It's not rocket science.

The complexity comes in the modelling of the various interventions. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but so far his predictions for the UK are in the ballpark.

(I've no idea why he made predictions for the US, and I don't understand why you guys listened to him. Don't you have your own modellers?)
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4002 on: May 08, 2020, 10:08:23 am »

(I've no idea why he made predictions for the US, and I don't understand why you guys listened to him. Don't you have your own modellers?)
I believe the model used by the CDC and bandied about at the televised press briefings was the one done by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 10:34:37 am by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4003 on: May 08, 2020, 10:39:41 am »

Yes, you and Ferguson are in agreement here. His model uses an Infection Fatality Rate of 0.9%.

99.1% of those infected will survive.

His 2.2 million predicted US deaths comes from taking that 0.9% fatality rate and applying it to 80% (herd immunity) of the population (325 million). It's not rocket science.

The complexity comes in the modelling of the various interventions. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but so far his predictions for the UK are in the ballpark.

(I've no idea why he made predictions for the US, and I don't understand why you guys listened to him. Don't you have your own modellers?)

First, I did not use an infection fatality rate of 0.9%.  We actually dont know the infection fatality rate yet, but it is much less then our current case fatality rate.  I posted a graph showing that, depending on age, the case fatality rate was 0% to 20%.  Meaning that if you are below 50, you will survive with extremely few exceptions (much like driving in a car, you will survive).  So, protect the old and let everyone else out to continuing working and keeping the economy going is what I am advocating for. 

Second, assuming 80% of the population will get this is not scientific and not supported by past events.  Only 28% caught the Spanish Flu before it died out.  The infection rate is even lower for other past events.  To assume 80% will catch this is a gross mistake. 

I have yet to see any data showing his original model is accurate in the UK.  FYI, even in the UK, most concentrated on his do nothing model, which at the time most countries were no longer in a do nothing mode.  However, as I said before, the best case against his models is Sweden.  Using his model for Sweden has shown how off it is. 

Last, yes, we have our own modelers.  However, the "if it bleeds it leads" mantra of the press over here hyped up the worse case scenario (which his was) more then likely just for more clicks and ratings. 

I think Newt Gingrich put it best when he wrote this lock down is the result of our modern hysteria brought on by social media and online activity.  In a less connected world, I feel our response would have been like in past events with, perhaps, only slightly more loss of life albeit with much less economic damage.  There is a price for having access to too much information as well. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 10:46:58 am by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4004 on: May 08, 2020, 11:19:35 am »

Second, assuming 80% of the population will get this is not scientific and not supported by past events.  Only 28% caught the Spanish Flu before it died out.  The infection rate is even lower for other past events.  To assume 80% will catch this is a gross mistake.
I am pretty sure that they didn't have a very sophisticated testing program that would allow them to arrive at 28% figure with any accuracy.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4005 on: May 08, 2020, 11:23:19 am »

I am pretty sure that they didn't have a very sophisticated testing program that would allow them to arrive at 28% figure with any accuracy.

So you're saying we should not trust the experts when it comes to the Spanish Flu but need to follow the experts on this? 

FYI, if you right, then the infection fatality rate of the Spanish Flu is significantly lower, just like here. 
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4006 on: May 08, 2020, 11:29:51 am »

So you're saying we should not trust the experts when it comes to the Spanish Flu but need to follow the experts on this? 
I am not telling you which, if any, experts you should follow. That is entirely up to you. I am sure you are qualified to select them on your own.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 12:12:05 pm by faberryman »
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4007 on: May 08, 2020, 11:34:53 am »

First, I did not use an infection fatality rate of 0.9%.

When you say 'if you catch C-19, your survival rate is 99+%', you are talking about the infection fatality rate (IFR). I admittedly failed to note your '+' sign. What do you think the IFR is?

Quote
Second, assuming 80% of the population will get this is not scientific and not supported by past events.

You're the one who's been saying that everyone is going to get it.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4008 on: May 08, 2020, 11:47:18 am »

This is the biggest tragedy in all of this, and something that was actually foreseeable and, at the very least, able to be mitigated. 

Insofar as the spread of the disease, this is the one aspect I hold politicians responsible for.

The infection came from younger people who were spreading the virus. You know, those with a 99% survival chance ...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4009 on: May 08, 2020, 11:57:28 am »

So, how is that "the virus originated from a Chinese lab" hoax coming along?

Has anything been proven yet, or are folks in government still looking for a scapegoat, to divert attention away from their own alleged incompetence?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4010 on: May 08, 2020, 11:59:18 am »

So, how is that "the virus originated from a Chinese lab" hoax coming along?

Has anything been proven yet, or are folks in government still looking for a scapegoat, to divert attention away from their own alleged incompetence?

Odds are nothing will ever be proven one way or the other.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4011 on: May 08, 2020, 12:07:24 pm »

The infection came from younger people who were spreading the virus. You know, those with a 99% survival chance ...

We have no idea if this the case.  Plus, in NY, it was and still is the case that if a resident tests positive he/she must be admitted back regardless if the location has the capacity to isolate.  Many could have been infected by other residents forced to go back into the community. 

Come on Bart, you’re better then that. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4012 on: May 08, 2020, 12:09:42 pm »

When you say 'if you catch C-19, your survival rate is 99+%', you are talking about the infection fatality rate (IFR). I admittedly failed to note your '+' sign. What do you think the IFR is?

You're the one who's been saying that everyone is going to get it.

Touché on your last point. 

Insofar as IFR for someone in my age group and overall health, 7/100 of 1% is what I’ve read from reliable sources. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4013 on: May 08, 2020, 12:16:22 pm »

We have no idea if this the case.

They didn't infect themselves.

The superspreaders were people who visited, or were visited by, people from the city of Wuhan in China.
People in Nursing homes tend to not travel that much.
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4014 on: May 08, 2020, 12:28:35 pm »

I believe the model used by the CDC and bandied about at the televised press briefings was the one done by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington.

If Ferguson is guilty of overestimating, these guys (IHME) should be called out for massively underestimating. They recently nearly doubled their death projection from 74,000 to 134,000 (by 4th Aug - no word on what's expected after that).
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4015 on: May 08, 2020, 12:34:53 pm »

If Ferguson is guilty of overestimating, these guys (IHME) should be called out for massively underestimating. They recently nearly doubled their death projection from 74,000 to 134,000 (by 4th Aug - no word on what's expected after that).
As I understand it, they are frequently updating their model with current data, so I would expect their projections to change from time to time. The jump from 74,000 to 134,000 may reflect the ending of the various state shut downs. I have no idea how good the model itself is, other than I believe it is the one CDC used for the daily press briefings.
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4016 on: May 08, 2020, 12:43:33 pm »

As I understand it, they are frequently updating their model with current data, so I would expect their projections to change from time to time. The jump from 74,000 to 134,000 may reflect the ending of the various state shut downs. I have no idea how good the model itself is, other than I believe it is the one CDC used for the daily press briefings.

Yes, they've said the revision is because mobile phone data shows that Americans have recently started moving around more and therefore infections will multiply.
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4017 on: May 08, 2020, 12:44:15 pm »

'Coronavirus survivors banned from joining the military'

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/06/coronavirus-survivors-banned-from-joining-the-military/

What do they know that we don't?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4018 on: May 08, 2020, 12:57:54 pm »

They didn't infect themselves.

The superspreaders were people who visited, or were visited by, people from the city of Wuhan in China.
People in Nursing homes tend to not travel that much.

Well in that case let’s drop off a few pallets of food and medicine and let the seniors fend for themselves.  Problem solved. 

No one infects themselves Bart, but to ignore the policy I noted above as a main source of spread in those communities is disingenuous. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4019 on: May 08, 2020, 01:00:10 pm »

If Ferguson is guilty of overestimating, these guys (IHME) should be called out for massively underestimating. They recently nearly doubled their death projection from 74,000 to 134,000 (by 4th Aug - no word on what's expected after that).

All predictions went until June.  They extended it too, which would increase the number.  Still, being off by 2 is better then 10+.
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