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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495115 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3560 on: May 03, 2020, 09:38:06 pm »

Bernard believes in the collective, not the individual.  He simply does not understand America. America is about the individual. Individuals who make the best for themselves and individual states who forge their way.  Its called the American way for a reason.  Its not for everyone.  Not everyone will get equal outcomes.  Again welcome to reality.

I wouldn’t mind admitting this if this were my opinion, but it absolutely isn’t.

As I wrote several dozens of time, I am a firm believer in the power of the individual. I don’t think everyone should get equal wages. But you know this very well. I happen to be very very heavily taxed where I reside and I don’t mind. Or I mind not enough of this money being allocated to people who need it instead of funding Olympic games and other projects benefiting mostly the construction business in Japan.

But I live in reality. Reality is that human beings are social creatures who got where they are thanks to the power of the language. Which is nothing but a connection between people. Humankind is about the group.

The law, the state, the roads, electricity, the army are all social constructs that define most of your life. Large private corporations that build smart phones, planes and cars manage to achieve these amazing things thanks extremely constraining rules about what individuals can and cannot do. And I believe I am much more knowledgeable than you about this.

The lone cowboy hasn’t contributed much to the greatness of America. This is reality.

Yet we all agree that there is freedom amidst these constructs, including the freedom to pay contributors in a way proportional to the value they deliver.

And this freedom is absolutely not contradictory to the ability to embed empathy and care for the weak in the system. It’s a myth that you cannot be generous and individual at the same time.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 10:37:56 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3561 on: May 03, 2020, 09:46:08 pm »

I don't think you should be allowed to drive to the park to take pictures.  What a selfish act.  You risk life and limb to take some dumb photos.  Don't you care about anyone? Who are you trying to impress.  Probably just some other guy.  Look how big my lens is?  Look how big my photo is.  Look how many pixels my camera has?  Give me a break.

I am personally very careful about social distancing. Going to the park will only put others in danger if you are closer than 2 meters to strangers. But I do agree obviously that I would be selfish if I did something that endangers the lives of others. I assume that your accusation mean you confim my view that weapons advocates indeed are selfish?

Certainly, weapons aren’t the only example of toys that support ego.

But I am sure you would agree that cameras are tools for artistic creation that don’t kill anyone, right?

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 10:34:48 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3562 on: May 03, 2020, 09:49:17 pm »

I don't think you should be allowed to drive to the park to take pictures.  What a selfish act.  You risk life and limb to take some dumb photos.  Don't you care about anyone? Who are you trying to impress.  Probably just some other guy.  Look how big my lens is?  Look how big my photo is.  Look how many pixels my camera has?  Give me a break.

They don't have to worry about me shooting pictures in the park. It's hard enough to get up on Tuesday morning for the senior hour in the supermarket. And show everybody how big my mask is.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3563 on: May 03, 2020, 10:28:12 pm »

You're the one talking about left vs. right here Bernard with the comment I replied to.  It's your binary universe that stemmed my response.

But like I said, left is for large govt and right is for small, in the USA.  All conservatives want smaller govt, which is one of the reason we are still behind Trump through this, he has not sought to expand government.  So long as that is the case, he will have my vote.  Biden on the other hand wants everything handled by government, including interns and aids.   ;)

I used the word lefty answering to your friend Alan with whom you appear to share a great deal of views... except perhaps about this topic about Trump being a conservative.  ;D

I would have to agree with him on this. Traditional republicans have always been about avoiding to increase the debt... and Trump is doing exactly the opposite. Obama reduced the debt and increased healthcare... Trump is increasing the debt while reducing healthcare... Who benefits? Hint... not you. Answer: the 1% making millions per year.

So Obama was trying to get the best of both world, introducing more empathy while reducing the biggest liability of gov (the debt) while Trump is doing the worst of both world. And this is without speaking about the death sentence to the economy that his downplaying of the corona has pronounced.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3564 on: May 03, 2020, 10:59:50 pm »

Now, Trump has announced that up to 100,000 people may die in USA due to the C19 virus. He has a real problem to interpret the facts and trends.
The 100,000 count will be reached before the end of May. By end of year, we might see 300,000 fatalities.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3565 on: May 03, 2020, 11:03:25 pm »

Now, Trump has announced that up to 100,000 people may die in USA due to the C19 virus. He has a real problem to interpret the facts and trends.
The 100,000 count will be reached before the end of May. By end of year, we might see 300,000 fatalities.

Indeed. Most analysis indicate that the actual number of casualties is around twice the official number in developed countries. So there probably already around 130,000 fatalities in the US as we speak.

The only country I am aware of that is really trying to publish a realistic number is Belgium, and sure enough the rate is twice that of its neighbors.

If you add to that all the indirect consequences of the late lockdown that have been explained by Joe and co (the suicides, the untreated chronic diseases,...), the total number may be much higher.

Had Trump taken timely measures both direct and indirect fatalities would have been much lower.

Regards,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 11:06:41 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3566 on: May 03, 2020, 11:45:25 pm »

Does not matter.  More deaths wth hammers than long guns.  Period.  Tell that to the poeple whower killed with hammers. Welcome to the wonderful world of numbers. You do know, dont you' that when you remove one source, folks who want to do mass harm will just find another.  Who ever though pressure cookers, fertilizer or jet airliners would be weapons.  But when there is a will there will always be a way.  Blaming the object is a fools errand.

There were not more murders by hammers than long guns -- there were more murders by hammers and clubs and other blunt objects than with long guns. This is a silly discussion, because hammers are made for a special useful purpose, driving nails; a few of them may have been used to kill people but I would bet a large amount of money (to refute your silly point) that the other weapons in the category (clubs and other blunt objects) were used more than hammers. So it's not "hammers killed more people, period." Allll kinds of things can be used for murdering people, including hammers, sticks, ropes, kitchen knives, fists, gasoline, etc. But only one of the things we're talking about are specifically designed, built and intended to be used to kill people, and those are semi-automatic weapons -- rifles and handguns. They are absolutely unnecessary for any recreational purpose that couldn't be done with much slower-acting guns, single-shots, double-barreled shotguns, bolt-action rifles and revolvers, and as I said somewhere else, the fantasy that these slobs could use their weapons to prevent a government tyranny is a fantasy. Scores of people are murdered every year because of this stupid, silly fantasy. The weapons are used for murder and to intimidate neighbors and fellow citizens. We had a guy show up at a meeting here with an open carry semi-auto pistol worn on his belt, which is legal, but it was known in advance that there would be some hot tempers at this meeting, though nobody expected any kind of physical violence, and his presence scared everybody including the cops and the people who were technically on his side in the discussion. And that was the intent. Whose idea of democracy is that?

Rifles and handguns together were responsible for more than 14,000 murders in 2018. These weapons make it possible for a single person to kill masses of people, because that's what they're well-designed to do. Very, very few other things accessible to crazy people will do that -- bombs are one, as Tim McVeigh proved on Oklahoma City, and I would point out that he was encouraged in his work by the very same kind of people who are marching around with the AR-15 style rifles, the right-wing anti-government crazies.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3567 on: May 04, 2020, 12:42:30 am »

I am personally very careful about social distancing. Going to the park will only put others in danger if you are closer than 2 meters to strangers. But I do agree obviously that I would be selfish if I did something that endangers the lives of others. I assume that your accusation mean you confim my view that weapons advocates indeed are selfish?

Certainly, weapons aren’t the only example of toys that support ego.

But I am sure you would agree that cameras are tools for artistic creation that don’t kill anyone, right?

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard, I was referring to car accidents that you may cause driving to take pictures just to satisfy your desire for artistic creation.  Isn't that selfish?

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3568 on: May 04, 2020, 12:48:52 am »

There were not more murders by hammers than long guns -- there were more murders by hammers and clubs and other blunt objects than with long guns. This is a silly discussion, because hammers are made for a special useful purpose, driving nails; a few of them may have been used to kill people but I would bet a large amount of money (to refute your silly point) that the other weapons in the category (clubs and other blunt objects) were used more than hammers. So it's not "hammers killed more people, period." Allll kinds of things can be used for murdering people, including hammers, sticks, ropes, kitchen knives, fists, gasoline, etc. But only one of the things we're talking about are specifically designed, built and intended to be used to kill people, and those are semi-automatic weapons -- rifles and handguns. They are absolutely unnecessary for any recreational purpose that couldn't be done with much slower-acting guns, single-shots, double-barreled shotguns, bolt-action rifles and revolvers, and as I said somewhere else, the fantasy that these slobs could use their weapons to prevent a government tyranny is a fantasy. Scores of people are murdered every year because of this stupid, silly fantasy. The weapons are used for murder and to intimidate neighbors and fellow citizens. We had a guy show up at a meeting here with an open carry semi-auto pistol worn on his belt, which is legal, but it was known in advance that there would be some hot tempers at this meeting, though nobody expected any kind of physical violence, and his presence scared everybody including the cops and the people who were technically on his side in the discussion. And that was the intent. Whose idea of democracy is that?

Rifles and handguns together were responsible for more than 14,000 murders in 2018. These weapons make it possible for a single person to kill masses of people, because that's what they're well-designed to do. Very, very few other things accessible to crazy people will do that -- bombs are one, as Tim McVeigh proved on Oklahoma City, and I would point out that he was encouraged in his work by the very same kind of people who are marching around with the AR-15 style rifles, the right-wing anti-government crazies.
These arguments are killing me.  :)

Anyway, the governments in Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, limit guns severely.  Why do you think that is? 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3569 on: May 04, 2020, 12:55:15 am »

Bernard, I was referring to car accidents that you may cause driving to take pictures just to satisfy your desire for artistic creation.  Isn't that selfish?

It’s a matter of probabilities...

In this case it’s zero because I never drive to the park.

I know it’s a stupid answer but not any worse than your objection.

I only drive 6,000 km per year, 95% of which on highways. But I may still cause accidents. However there really isn’t much of a choice and driving serves a purpose.

Guns don’t.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3570 on: May 04, 2020, 01:03:22 am »

These arguments are killing me.  :)

Anyway, the governments in Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, limit guns severely.  Why do you think that is?

Like all the govs in Europe, China, Japan, India,...

Similarly they forbid hard drugs, murder, jay walking, tax evasion,...

Are those forbidden because they could enable a revolution or because they are bad for society and therefore citizens?

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3571 on: May 04, 2020, 01:15:16 am »

It’s a matter of probabilities...

In this case it’s zero because I never drive to the park.

I know it’s a stupid answer but not any worse than your objection.

I only drive 6,000 km per year, 95% of which on highways. But I may still cause accidents. However there really isn’t much of a choice and driving serves a purpose.

Guns don’t.

Cheers,
Bernard

But driving to shoot pictures to satisfy your ego and possible kill and injure them is selfish as well.  What would you tell the mother whose child you just ran over because you drove through a stop sign? "Well, maam, I was doing something important.  I had to test my new Nikon and I was hurrying to get there.  You should have taught your kid to look both ways before crossing." The point is that we all do stuff that puts others in danger because we put our own interests first.  You're no angel.  Yet. ;) In any case, it's very presumptuous to think that your interests are not selfish while other people's interests are.  Get over it. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3572 on: May 04, 2020, 01:18:54 am »

Like all the govs in Europe, China, Japan, India,...

Similarly they forbid hard drugs, murder, jay walking, tax evasion,...

Are those forbidden because they could enable a revolution or because they are bad for society and therefore citizens?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, in the case of dictators, I think it's more of the former - they're afraid of getting shot by the people they rule.  The first thing they do when they take over is get rid of all the guns.  Except theirs.

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3573 on: May 04, 2020, 01:47:04 am »

But driving to shoot pictures to satisfy your ego and possible kill and injure them is selfish as well.  What would you tell the mother whose child you just ran over because you drove through a stop sign? "Well, maam, I was doing something important.  I had to test my new Nikon and I was hurrying to get there.  You should have taught your kid to look both ways before crossing." The point is that we all do stuff that puts others in danger because we put our own interests first.  You're no angel.  Yet. ;) In any case, it's very presumptuous to think that your interests are not selfish while other people's interests are.  Get over it.

I don't drive to kill. In last 50 years I must have driven over a million miles without an accident (but I locked my keys in the car once), so using a car for killing is an overrated argument.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3574 on: May 04, 2020, 04:17:38 am »

No, leftists believe that the quality of a country is determined by the wealth of its poorest citizens.

But you, as a billionaire, are predictably not interested.  ;D

Most Americans are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3575 on: May 04, 2020, 04:18:06 am »

But driving to shoot pictures to satisfy your ego and possible kill and injure them is selfish as well.  What would you tell the mother whose child you just ran over because you drove through a stop sign? "Well, maam, I was doing something important.  I had to test my new Nikon and I was hurrying to get there.  You should have taught your kid to look both ways before crossing." The point is that we all do stuff that puts others in danger because we put our own interests first.  You're no angel.  Yet. ;) In any case, it's very presumptuous to think that your interests are not selfish while other people's interests are.  Get over it.

Well, again, driving is very low risk (and is strongly affected by how one drives), has a different intent and is universally accepted.

As far as I am concerned I never drive to go shoot. I sometimes drive my family to places where a car is the only convenient means of transportation and use the opportunity to shoot some images.

But I assume you meant driving in general. Do most of the people who drive have other options? The answer is no. Do most gun owners have the option not to buy guns? Yes they do.

In honesty I am not convinced that your example is any relevant, certainly not as an example of activity where a very unclear personal advantage is selfishly prioritized over a very clear collective disadvantage.

To the extent that I am wondering whether you understood what I am talking about?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 04:51:34 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3576 on: May 04, 2020, 04:19:10 am »

No, leftists believe that the quality of a country is determined by the wealth of its poorest citizens.

Then America is the richest country in the world.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3577 on: May 04, 2020, 04:36:01 am »

You were the first one here who said, let it ride. 

As was Trump, according to rumors. Then he caved in to “experts” predicting 2.2 million fatalities. Big mistake on Trump’s part.

Come November, we will see what voters will blame him for more: 300,000 babushkas dead (if Les is correct) or 30,000,000 unemployed.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3578 on: May 04, 2020, 04:46:22 am »

As was Trump, according to rumors. Then he caved in to “experts” predicting 2.2 million fatalities. Big mistake on Trump’s part.

Come November, we will see what voters will blame him for more: 300,000 babushkas dead (if Les is correct) or 30,000,000 unemployed.

Both are equally his responsibility so most probably for both.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #3579 on: May 04, 2020, 05:23:48 am »

Covid-19 curves / trends - as of May 3, 2020

Worldwide - the infection rates staying surprisingly steady, the deaths curve bending very slightly downward
USA - still rising, peak not reached yet. In the last week, slightly reduced rise in infections and pretty much constant rise for deaths
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