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Author Topic: Bernie defends Castro  (Read 19185 times)

Manoli

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2020, 04:54:30 pm »

Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...

Quote

Moderate Democrats worry that nominating Mr Sanders would cost them the election. We worry that forcing Americans to decide between him and Mr Trump would have no good outcome. It will surprise nobody that we disagree with a self-described democratic socialist over economics, but that is just the start. Mr Sanders is so convinced he is morally right that he has a dangerous tendency to put ends before means. And, in a country where Mr Trump has whipped up politics into a frenzy of loathing, Mr Sanders’s election would feed the hatred. A corrupt, right-wing populist, who scorns the rule of law and the constitution, and a sanctimonious, left-wing populist, who blames a cabal of billionaires and businesses for everything that is wrong with the world: it is hard to think of a worse choice.



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petermfiore

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #121 on: February 27, 2020, 05:02:58 pm »

Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...




Well, so far it's half right...

Peter

Craig Lamson

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2020, 05:08:00 pm »

Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...




A corrupt, right-wing populist, who scorns the rule of law and the constitution,

This line puts the article where it belongs, at the bottom of the bird cage...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #123 on: February 27, 2020, 08:46:41 pm »


Only as close as it needs to be to make the point, a point already made several times over, and why I eventually gave up trying to cope: conversations with a rubber wall do not conversations make. To tell you the truth, they undermine entire threads.
I'm disappointed you close your eyes and cover your ears to positions you disagree with.  I thought you were better than that.  Of course you won't read this because you pressed the "ignore" button on me.  That's a cop out. What are you afraid of?

Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2020, 09:42:11 pm »

The other side, the one to which you probably refer to as the dark one, is equally worthless if for different reasons. In essence, there is no party left in Britain for which I could force myself to vote. I realise that this is perhaps what has caused so much indifference in the young voters: more quickly than did I they realised that all the options suck, none having a saving grace.

We enter third-world status very rapidly.

Rob,
Sounds as though Britain needs compulsory voting like the Australian system. If you want to completely opt out of voting, you have the choice, but you pay a fine, unless you have an acceptable reason for not voting, such as being out of the country during the voting period.

The fine is not much, only A$20 for the first offense. However, if you continue refusing to vote in subsequent elections, whether State or Federal elections, the fine rises to A$50. If you refuse to pay the fine, then the matter goes to the court and your expenses will be much greater than the initial fine.

Regarding referendums involving major changes to the system, like the Brexit referendum, a double majority is required in Australia, that is, a majority of votes in a majority of States, plus an over all majority throughout the country. In the UK you have the equivalent of 4 states, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Only two of them voted in support of Brexit.

The UK political system is inadequate to handle major referendums, such as Brexit. You need to change your system. Consider Australia as a good model.  ;)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2020, 09:44:25 pm »

Rob,
Sounds as though Britain needs compulsory voting like the Australian system. If you want to completely opt out of voting, you have the choice, but you pay a fine, unless you have an acceptable reason for not voting, such as being out of the country during the voting period.

The fine is not much, only A$20 for the first offense. However, if you continue refusing to vote in subsequent elections, whether State or Federal elections, the fine rises to A$50. If you refuse to pay the fine, then the matter goes to the court and your expenses will be much greater than the initial fine.

Regarding referendums involving major changes to the system, like the Brexit referendum, a double majority is required in Australia, that is, a majority of votes in a majority of States, plus an over all majority throughout the country. In the UK you have the equivalent of 4 states, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Only two of them voted in support of Brexit.

The UK political system is inadequate to handle major referendums, such as Brexit. You need to change your system. Consider Australia as a good model.  ;)
Do they have a lever labelled: None of The Above?

Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2020, 10:22:02 pm »

Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...




Quote
Mr Sanders is so convinced he is morally right that he has a dangerous tendency to put ends before means.

Very strange that the richest and most developed country in the world does not have the means to provide basic medical assistance for everyone, basic education for everyone and an adequate salary for everyone who is unemployed.

Whilst I agree that Communism, as it has been practiced in the past, has had serious flaws which have led to its collapse, it's not reasonable to declare that every aspect of the Communist system was flawed. Progress requires identifying the flaws and removing them, but also identifying the good aspects and expanding them.
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Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2020, 10:27:36 pm »

Do they have a lever labelled: None of The Above?

Try to be more clear and precise, Alan. Don't know what you are trying to say.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2020, 10:48:12 pm »


Quote
Try to be more clear and precise, Alan. Don't know what you are trying to say.
Check to vote for one of the following:

1. Donald Trump  Republican Party _____

2. Pete Buttigieg  Democrat Party ______

3. Bernie Sanders Social Democratic Party _____

4. Elizabeth Warren  American Indian Party _____

5.  None of the Above  ________

LesPalenik

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2020, 11:29:00 pm »

Where is Bloomberg?
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Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2020, 11:56:48 pm »

Check to vote for one of the following:

1. Donald Trump  Republican Party _____

2. Pete Buttigieg  Democrat Party ______

3. Bernie Sanders Social Democratic Party _____

4. Elizabeth Warren  American Indian Party _____

5.  None of the Above  ________

Don't be silly, Alan. Voting for no-one is the same as not voting at all. It would be ridiculous to have an option on the ballot paper to 'vote for no-one' or 'none of the above'.

However, a person can invalidate his vote by not ticking any of the boxes, if he is really stupid.  ;)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2020, 05:16:38 am »

...salary for everyone who is unemployed...

Huh!?  :o

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2020, 05:21:10 am »

... However, a person can invalidate his vote by not ticking any of the boxes, if he is really stupid.  ;)

Which is the same as having “none of the above” option. But why is that stupid? There are many people who would rather cut their finger off than using it to press the button, if the only options are Trump and Bernie.

Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #133 on: February 28, 2020, 09:30:54 am »

Which is the same as having “none of the above” option. But why is that stupid? There are many people who would rather cut their finger off than using it to press the button, if the only options are Trump and Bernie.

Why is it stupid?

(1) No two candidates can be either equally bad or equally good. Only stupid, or at least uninformed people, are unable to form an opinion as to which candidate might be at least slightly better or slightly worse, in accordance with their own standards.

Didn't Trump get elected because many voters considered him to be not quite as bad as Hilary Clinton?

(2) Informal or invalid votes can also be unintentional or accidental because the voter hasn't read or understood the instruction on the ballot paper. That's also a degree of stupidity.

I should also mention that the Australian voters do not choose their Prime Minister (equivalent to the American President). The members of a particular party choose their leader. The citizens vote for each member of the House of Representatives and the Senate, whichever party those members belong to.

The actual percentages of informal (or invalid) votes during Federal elections, whether deliberate or accidental, tend to be fairly small, ranging from around 1.35% to 6.4%. Refer attached graph from the following site:
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/research/files/informal-voting-2016.pdf

"At every federal election, some of the votes cast are not filled out in accordance with the requirements of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 (the Electoral Act). These votes are deemed informal and cannot be included in the count of votes leading to the election result. Together with the enrolment rate and voter turnout, the informality rate is a key measure of democratic health in Australia as it provides an indication of elector understanding of, and engagement with, the electoral process."


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Ray

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2020, 09:44:31 am »

Huh!?  :o

Quote
Quote from: Ray on February 27, 2020, 10:22:02 pm
...salary for everyone who is unemployed...

Okay! You're having trouble understanding that concept. I should have been more precise. I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work, and a social security network for all those who are unable to work because of medical issues or old age'.

Understand now?  ;)
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2020, 09:55:28 am »

Okay! You're having trouble understanding that concept. I should have been more precise. I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work, and a social security network for all those who are unable to work because of medical issues or old age'.

Understand now?  ;)

Oh you meant like welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, WIC, medicare-medicade and unemployment compensation....oh and social security?  Check.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2020, 10:24:22 am »

... I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work...

Indefinitely!?

Alan Klein

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2020, 11:52:52 am »

Why is it stupid?

(1) No two candidates can be either equally bad or equally good. Only stupid, or at least uninformed people, are unable to form an opinion as to which candidate might be at least slightly better or slightly worse, in accordance with their own standards.

Didn't Trump get elected because many voters considered him to be not quite as bad as Hilary Clinton?

(2) Informal or invalid votes can also be unintentional or accidental because the voter hasn't read or understood the instruction on the ballot paper. That's also a degree of stupidity.

I should also mention that the Australian voters do not choose their Prime Minister (equivalent to the American President). The members of a particular party choose their leader. The citizens vote for each member of the House of Representatives and the Senate, whichever party those members belong to.

The actual percentages of informal (or invalid) votes during Federal elections, whether deliberate or accidental, tend to be fairly small, ranging from around 1.35% to 6.4%. Refer attached graph from the following site:
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/research/files/informal-voting-2016.pdf

"At every federal election, some of the votes cast are not filled out in accordance with the requirements of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 (the Electoral Act). These votes are deemed informal and cannot be included in the count of votes leading to the election result. Together with the enrolment rate and voter turnout, the informality rate is a key measure of democratic health in Australia as it provides an indication of elector understanding of, and engagement with, the electoral process."



Our Constitution protects free speech.  Free speech isn't free if the government can force you to speak.  Dictatorships force people to vote even if they;re the only candidate running.  They do this just to legitimize their power and position. 

Why should someone be forced to legitimize one or the other of two people if neither is capable in your mind?  Not voting tells the parties they should do better in picking qualified people if they want your vote.  Twisting the voter's arm and forcing them to vote is taking away their freedom to express their opinion.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2020, 11:56:03 am »

If billionaire Bloomberg winds up running against billionaire Trump, should Bernie's supporters who hate billionaires be forced to vote for one or the other billionaire?  How is that just?  How is that free speech?

kers

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Re: Bernie defends Castro
« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2020, 11:56:46 am »

Our Constitution protects free speech.  Free speech isn't free if the government can force you to speak.  Dictatorships force people to vote even if they;re the only candidate running.  They do this just to legitimize their power and position. 

Why should someone be forced to legitimize one or the other of two people if neither is capable in your mind?  Not voting tells the parties they should do better in picking qualified people if they want your vote.  Twisting the voter's arm and forcing them to vote is taking away their freedom to express their opinion.

In Belgium people are obliged to vote, not in the Netherlands .
If you vote blanco you express that you can/want not make a choice but you find it important to be able to vote. Your vote is counted.
I believe in the US only 25% of the people vote...
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