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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 324163 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2520 on: December 27, 2019, 09:20:23 am »


BTW, since when do liberals think this is a legal process?  I have been told for months now on this forum it is not; it is a political process. 
 

I thought that's what Alan has been saying. Are you calling Alan a liberal?  :)
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Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2521 on: December 27, 2019, 09:51:02 am »

Not wanting to offend anyone at all, but so far, the "arguments" in this thread have turned out to be far more creatively inventive than 99% of the photography on the site.

And to think that art was supposed to be the realm of fantasy!

;-)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2522 on: December 27, 2019, 10:21:51 am »

I thought that's what Alan has been saying. Are you calling Alan a liberal?  :)

Classical liberal? 

In all seriousness, many on here have been insisting it is a political process, which the House has completely shown it to be the case.  Well, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  So if the House insisted on making it political, let the Senate follow suit. 
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2523 on: December 27, 2019, 10:33:39 am »

It's weird that some of you think Pelosi waiting until people like McConnell and Graham agree to a fair trial (after already publicly stating that the "jury" intends to collaborate with the "defendant") makes her look bad.  But whatever... Trumpers gonna Trump.
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RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2524 on: December 27, 2019, 10:48:37 am »

And to think that art was supposed to be the realm of fantasy!

;-)

Most of what you're reading here, Rob, is in the realm of fantasy. Too bad it can't be directed toward photography.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2525 on: December 27, 2019, 11:20:07 am »

It's weird that some of you think Pelosi waiting until people like McConnell and Graham agree to a fair trial (after already publicly stating that the "jury" intends to collaborate with the "defendant") makes her look bad.  But whatever... Trumpers gonna Trump.

Totally opinion on my part but my belief that Pelosi and company know that have a loser and this tactic is just to give them political cover after lose the trial.  "Those Republican refused to fairly try the President so the results simply can't be trusted."  The other thing that might be in play is that there will be a court hearing on Jan 3 for Don McGann being forced to show up for a hearing for the House that is investigating obstruction. They might be waiting to add another article if they can. Its my understanding of this case is that its for him to be required to appear. He can still claim attorney - client  and executuive privilege and refuse to answer questions.
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2526 on: December 27, 2019, 11:49:19 am »

Totally opinion on my part but my belief that Pelosi and company know that have a loser and this tactic is just to give them political cover after lose the trial.

Taking Trump/McConnell/Pelosi out of it, and what would you do if you wanted to hand down an indictment and the jury said they were going to coordinate with the defendant?   That'd make you want some assurances, would it not?

If McGann does show and testify, though, yes, that would be a reason to delay as well, though in that case they should have just said they were waiting for additional testimony, unless McGann just stonewalls, as he certainly could.

Again, taking D/R out of it, the main problem here is that the people that have the best information are refusing to testify/not being allowed to testify.  I'm not sure how that reflects poorly on anyone other than Trump, but that's my opinion of course, and others clearly disagree.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 11:55:30 am by James Clark »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2527 on: December 27, 2019, 11:50:03 am »

. . . there will be a court hearing on Jan 3 for Don McGann being forced to show up for a hearing for the House that is investigating obstruction. . . .  Its my understanding of this case is that its for him to be required to appear. He can still claim attorney - client  and executuive privilege. . . .

A claim of executive privilege may only be asserted by the president, not by a subordinate or former subordinate.

Don McGahn served as White House Counsel, a government staff position, not as President Trump's personal lawyer; the attorney-client privilege would not apply to their conversations.

Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2528 on: December 27, 2019, 11:52:13 am »

A claim of executive privilege may only be asserted by the president, not by a subordinate or former subordinate.

Don McGahn served as White House Counsel, a government staff position, not as President Trump's personal lawyer; the attorney-client privilege would not apply to their conversations.

Thanks, I didnt know that.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2529 on: December 27, 2019, 12:09:31 pm »

Taking Trump/McConnell/Pelosi out of it, and what would you do if you wanted to hand down an indictment and the jury said they were going to coordinate with the defendant?   That'd make you want some assurances, would it not?

If McGann does show and testify, though, yes, that would be a reason as well, though in that case they should have just said they were waiting for additional testimony, unless McGann just stonewalls, as he certainly could.

Again, taking D/R out of it, the main problem here is that the people that have the best information are refusing to testify/not being allowed to testify.  I'm not sure how that reflects poorly on anyone other than Trump, but that's my opinion of course, and others clearly disagree.

Since this is a political process and the Senate gets to make the rules, just like the House got to make their rules, the House really has no say. 

McConnell says he wants to play by the Clintion Impeachment Rules.  This is a fairly decent account of what played out.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-26/trump-senate-impeachment-trial-finds-scant-precedent-in-history



I guess my take is that Pelosi knew how things would play out.  She was willing to go there. 

The House surely could have tried to force the testimony of those player. They chose not to do so.  I agree its would have been far better for them to testify.  But I do understand that saving them for a trial where you have more favorable odds might benefit Trump.  He claims he wants to call witnesses and defend himself in the Senate.  However I'm confident his Attorneys are telling him to take a quiet and easy win and move on if possible.  It will be interesting to see what happens.  I've stocked up on popcorn.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 12:59:34 pm by Craig Lamson »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2530 on: December 27, 2019, 01:11:47 pm »

It's weird that some of you think Pelosi waiting until people like McConnell and Graham agree to a fair trial (after already publicly stating that the "jury" intends to collaborate with the "defendant") makes her look bad.  But whatever... Trumpers gonna Trump.

Okay, so are you also for Warren, Bernie, Booker and Klobuchar recusing themselves?  All of them have been saying Trump is guilty and in need of being removed from office long before Ukraine was even an issue, and they have only doubled down on this of late. 

To use your jury analogy from above, would you want members of a jury who openly stated they felt the defendant was guilty before seeing any evidence? 

I would be all for a fair trial following a fair inquiry, but we did not get the latter by any stretch. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 01:15:49 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2531 on: December 27, 2019, 01:37:36 pm »

Okay, so are you also for Warren, Bernie, Booker and Klobuchar recusing themselves?  All of them have been saying Trump is guilty and in need of being removed from office long before Ukraine was even an issue, and they have only doubled down on this of late. 

To use your jury analogy from above, would you want members of a jury who openly stated they felt the defendant was guilty before seeing any evidence? 

I would be all for a fair trial following a fair inquiry, but we did not get the latter by any stretch. 
Not only has the house jury decided on the outcome, but the chief prosecutor Nancy Pelosi has recently said that she's been working on impeaching the president for 2 and 1/2 years. 

The whole thing reeks of politics. That's why the founders of the Constitution required a two-thirds majority to convict the president because they knew that politics would be used too often to get rid of a president.   They wanted the four-year election process to be used. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2532 on: December 27, 2019, 06:00:40 pm »

Not only has the house jury decided on the outcome, but the chief prosecutor Nancy Pelosi has recently said that she's been working on impeaching the president for 2 and 1/2 years.

Really? 

Quote
The whole thing reeks of politics. That's why the founders of the Constitution required a two-thirds majority to convict the president because they knew that politics would be used too often to get rid of a president.   They wanted the four-year election process to be used.

The founders clearly did not want to wait for the next election in the cycle, otherwise they wouldn't have added an impeachment process. Besides, with a president trying to manipulate the election process, that's the last thing one should want to use to call someone who behaves like an old style king or dictator to order.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2533 on: December 27, 2019, 07:12:22 pm »


The founders clearly did not want to wait for the next election in the cycle, otherwise they wouldn't have added an impeachment process. Besides, with a president trying to manipulate the election process, that's the last thing one should want to use to call someone who behaves like an old style king or dictator to order.

 ??? ??? ???

Please tell me how Trump is manipulating the election process. 
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2534 on: December 27, 2019, 07:28:51 pm »

The founders clearly did not want to wait for the next election in the cycle, otherwise they wouldn't have added an impeachment process. Besides, with a president trying to manipulate the election process, that's the last thing one should want to use to call someone who behaves like an old style king or dictator to order.

Correct.  The July 20, 1787, comments by Virginia delegate James Madison―later the fourth president of the United States―concisely summarize the rationale that resulted in the impeachment clauses which ultimately were adopted by the U.S. constitutional convention:

Quote
[Madison, quoting himself in his notes on the convention, argued that it was] indispensable that some provision should be made for defending the Community agst. the incapacity, negligence or perfidy of the chief Magistrate. The limitation of the period of his service, was not a sufficient security. He might lose his capacity after his appointment. He might pervert his administration into a scheme of peculation or oppression. He might betray his trust to foreign powers. The case of the Executive Magistracy was very distinguishable, from that of the Legislature or of any other public body, holding offices of limited duration. It could not be presumed that all or even a majority of the members of an Assembly would either lose their capacity for discharging, or be bribed to betray, their trust. Besides the restraints of their personal integrity & honor, the difficulty of acting in concert for purposes of corruption was a security to the public. And if one or a few members only should be seduced, the soundness of the remaining members, would maintain the integrity and fidelity of the body. In the case of the Executive Magistracy which was to be administered by a single man, loss of capacity or corruption was more within the compass of probable events, and either of them might be fatal to the Republic.

There are other aspects of the impeachment provisions in the constitution that are arguable, but the determination by the convention delegates to create a short-circuit mechanism between elections to remove an executive who abused his power really is not open to reasonable dispute.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2535 on: December 27, 2019, 07:51:24 pm »

Correct.  The July 20, 1787, comments by Virginia delegate James Madison―later the fourth president of the United States―concisely summarize the rationale that resulted in the impeachment clauses which ultimately were adopted by the U.S. constitutional convention:

There are other aspects of the impeachment provisions in the constitution that are arguable, but the determination by the convention delegates to create a short-circuit mechanism between elections to remove an executive who abused his power really is not open to reasonable dispute.

Much of what you quoted that falls around actions that are not illegal acts are disputable, which is why a 2/3s majority vote is needed.  This brings it to beyond dispute. 

Anyway, perhaps with your much more esteemed experience in USA law then Bart can tell us exactly how Trump is manipulating the election, since, you know, you quoted that portion of his statement. 

As an aside, I was watching a recap of Brexit and the Trump election that pretty much stated the intense dislike in each case was the direct result of elitists loosing for the first time.  Elitists had the first election in a very long time where the outcome was not something they foresaw nor could handle.  So they made a simplistic excuse for why it happened, focusing on racism and other misguided thoughts, and then tried to undo the election.  This then lead to the recent landslide victory in Britain for the conservative party, and will more then likely lead to the re-election of Trump.  Cant say I disagree. 

Personally I welcome a complete landslide for both Trump and the republicans.  It is beyond obvious the Dems in this country still wont listen to the average person (just look at their out of touch proposals like medicare for all), and feel an abject defeat is the only way to get the Dems to start listening again.  Maybe after that we will have a healthy system of two parties pay attention to the center of the country, instead of only one with the other listening to the far left.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 08:03:52 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2536 on: December 27, 2019, 08:38:18 pm »

Much of what you quoted that falls around actions that are not illegal acts are disputable, which is why a 2/3s majority vote is needed.  This brings it to beyond dispute. 

Anyway, perhaps with your much more esteemed experience in USA law then Bart can tell us exactly how Trump is manipulating the election, since, you know, you quoted that portion of his statement.

How about, asking a leader of a foreign country to announce an investigation into a political opponent of his own? And to investigate an already debunked theory (about an non-existing server in Ukraine), a fiction that was created by Russia, as a diversion. And later asking 'China' to also engage into an investigation.

I am not sure whether withholding a support package approved by Congress, in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into a political opponent (Biden was mentioned, corruption wasn't), amounts to bribery (according to local law). The fact that (most of?) the aid was later released (after the whistleblower's revelations), is immaterial to it being used as a Quid pro Quo.

Besides the esteemed opinion of others, how do YOU feel about that?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2537 on: December 27, 2019, 08:52:37 pm »

...Besides the esteemed opinion of others, how do YOU feel about that?

I feel perfectly fine with that.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2538 on: December 27, 2019, 08:55:32 pm »

I feel perfectly fine with that.

Not surprised (if a fan of Trump's 'style' of governing), but good to know you are okay with corruption of government.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2539 on: December 27, 2019, 09:07:22 pm »

Really? 

...
Yes Pelosi stated that they;ve been working on impeachment for 2 1/2 years, long before Ukraine.  The whole thing has been political.  They just couldn't accept the fact that Trump won and Clinton lost.
https://www.independentsentinel.com/pelosi-gleefully-announces-shes-been-at-impeachment-for-2-1-2-years/

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