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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 324017 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1200 on: November 06, 2019, 10:14:14 pm »

As written millions of times already, whatever Biden may have done or not done is completely irrelevant to the on-going discussion about Trump’s impreachment.

Trump is under impeachment for wanting to know more what happened in Ukraine with the Bidens. How is then what happened in Ukraine irrelevant!? It is the very nexus of the impeachment.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1201 on: November 06, 2019, 10:19:55 pm »

Trump is under impeachment for wanting to know more what happened in Ukraine with the Bidens. How is then what happened in Ukraine irrelevant!? It is the very nexus of the impeachment.

I don't see how. Regardless of whether Biden is Al Capone or Mother Theresa, it is irrelevant to the current discussion. What's under discussion are the methods that Trump tried to use to bury a political opponent.

If Biden is Al Capone, that's a separate issue. Feel free to go after him.

You're just trying to obscure things.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1202 on: November 06, 2019, 10:26:19 pm »

Because he's connected.  Do you think that's unusual or illegal?  And are you under the impression that a 600K contract is unusual for serious lobbying efforts?

He is connected? A guy with serious alcohol problems, screwing his dead brother’s wife, with no other accomplishments in life, no experience or connections in Ukraine or oil industry. What connections? Who is he going to seriously lobby? Except his daddy, of course.

No, it is not unusual or illegal, but everybody understands why it is done. Nobody is blaming the son in this saga. He is just a garden variety douche. The real culprit is Biden for not recusing himself.

And 600K is an unusually high amount for such a role. However, for Burisma, it was the best investment they ever made.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1203 on: November 06, 2019, 10:37:55 pm »

Because he's connected.  Do you think that's unusual or illegal?  And are you under the impression that a 600K contract is unusual for serious lobbying efforts?
He wasn't paid as a lobbyist but as a member of the board of directors.  It was his nexus to his father VP Biden that got him the job.  What promises were made.  Biden's son also got a deal from a CHinese guy who was later arrested by the Chinese government for corruption. Biden's son was given a 2.8 carat diamond as payment.  He said he gave it away.  VP Joe Biden was present and mer with officials from the Ukraine and CHinese corporation along with his son,   Who promised what?  Certainly worthy of an investigation.  After all, you accused Trump of collusion for two years without any proof.  Certainly Democrats should get the same treatment.  That would only be fair.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1204 on: November 06, 2019, 10:39:38 pm »

... the methods that Trump tried to use to bury a political opponent....

There is a difference between a fishing expedition of trying to find unknown dirt on a political opponent and trying to investigate an existing and public event. The former is what DNC and Hillary did by hiring a foreign agent to dig unknown dirt on Trump.

To give you an example: if Trump asked Ukraine to send their secret agents to investigate his potential political opponent Mary Buttplug for potential dirt, a guy I presume never had anything to do with Ukraine, that would be one thing. Wanting to know what already happened and why it ended up the way it did, is quite another thing.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1205 on: November 06, 2019, 10:49:04 pm »

Trump is under impeachment for wanting to know more what happened in Ukraine with the Bidens. How is then what happened in Ukraine irrelevant!? It is the very nexus of the impeachment.
Which is why the impeachment will bury Biden's candidacy.  Once the discussion in the House impeachment focuses on what Trump did in trying to investigate Biden, Republicans are going to raise the issue how Biden and his son were involved with a corrupt corporation and deserved to be investigated.  "Sometin' phoney's goin' on here."  will declare southern Senator  Lindsey Graham.  He will declare that Biden is not above the law.  The Democrats are executing their own guy who's able to beat Trump in the general election.  After the Senate declares Trump innocent, he'll have to face Pocahontas, a weaker candidate,  defending herself why she made a mistake all her life calling herself an American Indian and advancing her career because of it.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1206 on: November 06, 2019, 10:50:43 pm »

Game.  Set.  Match.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1207 on: November 06, 2019, 10:54:02 pm »

Thanks for the link, James. It is somewhat satisfactory. It is after the fact, what I wanted to see are requests before he was fired by the US.

Here's an AlJazeera story detailing the frustrations with the Ukranian government and Shoken prior to Shokin's removal. Biden/the US isn't even mentioned.

Here is what bothers me. The prosecutor claimed he was sacked for investigating Burisma. The Biden team says it  is nonsense, as Burisma wasn’t under investigation at the time and that the prosecutor is fired precisely because he wasn’t active enough in investigating major players, among which is surely Burisma. In other words, Biden wanted Burisma investigated, in spite of the fact it would hurt his son’s cushy position. Quite commendable. If true, of course. So, here is what bothers me: if the Biden’s version is true, why was the investigation into Burisma dropped and never reopened under the new prosecutor? Isn’t that what all is supposed to be about? More active, not less active, investigation into corruption?

According to Bloomberg (Cant find the original, but here is Reuters' summary) the Burisma investigation was already tabled by the time Shokin was fired, and my further understanding is that it was Burisma's founder that was the primary original target anyway, not the company itself.  Perhaps the investigation was simply could by then? (This is with the caveat that I have no idea how ingrained the company itself was with any sort of larger governmental or institutional corruption - maybe there IS no such thing as a wholly innocent corporation in Ukraine - I have no idea)

My interpretation is that no sane new prosecutor would dare to go against a company where a US Vice President’s son is sitting on the board. Especially not after witnessing the power the father just demonstrated in getting rid of the previous prosecutor.

OK - assume that's true.  But if the last guy was canned for being corrupt himself as evidenced by NOT prosecuting problematic activity, at that firing came not ONLY at the behest of the Obama administration (via Biden), but also via the greater EU community, that puts the new prosecutor into a rough position.   If you don't start prosecuting suspicion activity, the EU guys get all over you again, but if you do, you theoretically annoy Joe Biden.  It's an interesting study in diplomacy and power, but so far as I know, no one is alleging that Biden leaned on the guy AFTER Shokin to go easy on Hunter's employer - all of the allegations seem to be that (Joe) Biden wanted Shokin fired because he was going after Hunter, but there just doesn't seem to be much, if any, support for that.

Biden had two options before firing the prosecutor: 1) ask his son to step down 2) recuse himself. He did neither.

So what was the ultimate results of the whole Biden’s anti-corruption crusade? Prosecutor fired, but the main actor in the corruption game, Burisma, walked out scot-free. Much a do about nothing. Were there any other dramatic anti-corruption consequences after the firing? Or it was business as usual in the good old Ukraine?

See above - I don't think Burisma (the company) was ever THE high-value player in the general anti-corruption concerns about Shokin.  As per the AlJezeera article, there were apparently a metric ton of bad goings-on that Shokin was allegedly ignoring, hence the concern from the EU community in the first place.  In other words, the focus on Burisma and Hunter Biden seems to be blown out of proportion today, because as far as I can tell from contemporary reporting, it was just one of many issues with Shokin and Ukrainian corruption.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 11:14:14 pm by James Clark »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1208 on: November 06, 2019, 10:57:41 pm »

Which is why the impeachment will bury Biden's candidacy...

It shows.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1209 on: November 06, 2019, 11:06:57 pm »

After the Senate declares Trump innocent, he'll have to face Pocahontas, a weaker candidate,  defending herself why she made a mistake all her life calling herself an American Indian and advancing her career because of it.

Let's assume this is true.  Help me understand why Elizabeth Warren exaggerating her family heritage is problematic, while Donald Trump's background, which changes for expediency whenever he's complaining about the UN, is just ducky?   I mean, seriously Alan, I should never, ever, have to hear a single complaint from a Republican about how any Democratic candidate is lying about something.  It's absurd.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1210 on: November 06, 2019, 11:08:27 pm »

It shows.
Of course. It appears Biden's corrupt.  The average person can't follow the Barisma story, the different prosecutors, the whole sordid mess.  It's all very confusing.  And sordid.  But it's not confusing when you learn Biden's son got paid $50K a month, why, because he was Biden's son.  Who here makes $50K a month because of their father?  Well, Trump's kids do too.  And you know how corrupt they are.  Seems like Hunter Biden is from the same mold.  And that raises the issue about Trump.  How can you impeach a president for going after a corrupt politician.  Didn't Trump say he was going to clean up the swamp?  Well, it appears that Biden was one of the swamp creatures.

Maybe this is why Trump didn't hide the phone call.  Maybe he planned the whole thing.  To get rid of Biden.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1211 on: November 06, 2019, 11:19:48 pm »

It shows.

I suspect I'm more in tune with Dem voters than you are, and it's my feeling that Biden was waning before any of this due to ongoing lackluster debate performances, par-for-the-course Biden gaffes, and the fact that the primary/nomination system caters to the more, er.. "invested" (read: extremist) wings of the parties - the ones who are passionate & the ideologues (which is why the fringe candidates look great to the early voters, but the moderates show better in wider polls).
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1212 on: November 06, 2019, 11:20:29 pm »

Let's assume this is true.  Help me understand why Elizabeth Warren exaggerating her family heritage is problematic, while Donald Trump's background, which changes for expediency whenever he's complaining about the UN, is just ducky?   I mean, seriously Alan, I should never, ever, have to hear a single complaint from a Republican about how any Democratic candidate is lying about something.  It's absurd.
Because everyone knows who Trump is.  A loud-mouth, NYC real-estate tycoon who sold  himself, yes lied about, and worked his butt off to make good.  A  bull in a China shop.  But, he didn't change his race to get ahead. Rather he employed minorities. He wasn't a politician until becoming president.  She's the one who claims she only does good.  She's the one looking for minority votes.  Yet, she used minority status that she didn't have to advance her career.  Oh sure, Obama will come out and support her like he did the Canadian PM' faux pas regarding black face.  But how many minorities will see through the facade and stay home rather than vote for her?    How many people will see her too far to the left and get nervous about where she wants to take the country.  No, Biden was a better match against TRump.  A Mr. Nice Guy, centrist liberal, who union and other workers can identify with.  These men and women, these deplorables,  can't ID with Pocahontas flailing her arms around lecturing everyone like a college professor from Harvard.  Oh wait, she is a college professor from Harvard. 

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1213 on: November 06, 2019, 11:22:01 pm »

Of course. It appears Biden's corrupt.  The average person can't follow the Barisma story, the different prosecutors, the whole sordid mess.  It's all very confusing.  And sordid. 

The fact that the "average" low information voter can't be bothered to learn the subtleties of what they're voting on doesn't mean that their simplistic view of what happened is correct.
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1214 on: November 06, 2019, 11:27:01 pm »

...can't ID with Pocahontas flailing her arms around lecturing everyone like a college professor from Harvard.  Oh wait, she is a college professor from Harvard.

Right.  Because it makes perfect sense to have a guy who BK'd six companies run the nation "like a business," because you can't sit down and have a beer" with a college professor.

Jeebus, we're boned.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1215 on: November 06, 2019, 11:37:57 pm »

The fact that the "average" low information voter can't be bothered to learn the subtleties of what they're voting on doesn't mean that their simplistic view of what happened is correct.
James, Frankly, the Barisma story isn't clear to me.  I'm pretty confused about what happened and I'm a pretty astute fellow.  Of course, it's being spun differently depending on which party is telling the story.  But no one has to explain to low information voters that Biden's son got paid $50K a month working for a corrupt corporation and that Joe Biden got the prosecutor fired who was investigating that corporation.  Why wasn't Biden investigated they will ask?  Well, Trump tried to get that done although he made a rather weak attempt at it.    They might ask why he didn't try harder?

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1216 on: November 06, 2019, 11:41:32 pm »

Right.  Because it makes perfect sense to have a guy who BK'd six companies run the nation "like a business," because you can't sit down and have a beer" with a college professor.

Jeebus, we're boned.


All I'm saying is that Biden is a more likeable fellow, a guy regular people can identify with.  He makes gaffes like Trump does.  He's got an eye for the ladies.  He's charming.  A liberal centrist, you can see him working things out with Republicans to get legislation passed and not wanting to bring down the whole American experience on our heads like Warren.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1217 on: November 06, 2019, 11:56:14 pm »

James, Frankly, the Barisma story isn't clear to me.  I'm pretty confused about what happened and I'm a pretty astute fellow.  Of course, it's being spun differently depending on which party is telling the story.  But no one has to explain to low information voters that Biden's son got paid $50K a month working for a corrupt corporation and that Joe Biden got the prosecutor fired who was investigating that corporation. Why wasn't Biden investigated they will ask?  Well, Trump tried to get that done although he made a rather weak attempt at it.    They might ask why he didn't try harder?

But Alan - this is my point... despite being plugged into politics, and caring about these kind of things, the part you wrote that I bolded simply isn't factually correct.  If you go back and look at the articles I posted for Slobodan that were written at the time, by journalists that had nothing to do with Biden or the US, it's crystal clear that getting rid of Shokin wasn't driven by Burisma or Hunter Biden, and everyone not affiliated with Trump acknowledges that.   Yet you keep insisting that it just HAS to be true because Hunter Biden got a sweetheart deal.   
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 12:01:08 am by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1218 on: November 07, 2019, 12:05:22 am »

But Alan - this is my point... despite being plugged into politics, and caring about these kind of things, the part you wrote that I bolded simply isn't factually correct.  If you go back and look at the articles I posted for Slobodan that were written at the time, by journalists that had nothing to do with Biden or the US, it's crystal clear that getting rid of Shokin wasn't driven by Burisma or Hunter Biden, and everyone not affiliated with Trump acknowledges that.   Yet you keep insisting that it just HAS to be true because Hunter Biden got a sweetheart deal.   

Well, it appeared that Trump colluded with the Russians.  Yet, it took a two year investigation to prove he didn't.  Why should we believe that Biden didn't do something corrupt as well?  After all, who gets paid $50K a month for nothing?  It seems that Democrats know how to dish it out but don't know how to take it. 

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1219 on: November 07, 2019, 12:20:47 am »

Why should we believe that Biden didn't do something corrupt as well?  After all, who gets paid $50K a month for nothing?  It seems that Democrats know how to dish it out but don't know how to take it.

Ay, chihuahua.  I feel like we've been over this before.
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