Does a photo lie or its caption?

[BobShaw]

Of course the majority of foreign news outlets captioned the picture in a negative way towards Trump. 

All news is negative. it would not matter if it was Trump or not.
It does not help if you keep prodding the media though.

When was the last time you saw a good news story?

There is a well known saying in media " Good news is NO news".

[Two23]

I remember a number of years ago my local paper ran a story about the last television episode being aired about a comedy series starring a lesbian.  The writer (I hate to call her a reporter)  was trying to make the point that there are many lesbians out there as they are common.  That was part of the reason of the success of the then cancelled TV show.  For the story she attended a social group that was watching the last show together, and she used a photo of them to illustrate her story.  There were about a dozen people in the photo--all men!    The next day I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out they had published a story that purported lesbians were common and "all around us," and offered as proof a photo of a dozen men.  I asked how I was to interpret that?   My letter was not published, and I never received a response!   The photo itself did not lie--it was just a photo of a bunch of guys watching a TV.  However, the local newspaper seemed to be trying to convince me of something but only offered a glaring non sequitur as proof.


Kent in SD

[Rob C]

Writing as a 'non-complicated' guy, I believe that most guys I know are quite interested in the concept of Sappho; however, the sexual opposite, male homosexuality is a decided turn-off.

Perhaps it's because of photography and the associated familiarity with the fair sex that makes me feel quite comfortable with the lesbian idea - I could be entirely mistaken, I'd need confirmation from one (which I would never presume to solicit) that the influence of makeup and the massive obsession with looks is partly what creates the urge within some women to appreciate one another a bit more than usual, but on the other hand, some published examples would prove looks to be not a driver, but perhaps a case of last resort. Who really knows, one way or the other?

However, even there, there are limits to where I'd like film or stills to venture.

An interesting situation.

I forget: how did we get here?

Rob

[Telecaster]

Writing as a 'non-complicated' guy, I believe that most guys I know are quite interested in the concept of Sappho; however, the sexual opposite, male homosexuality is a decided turn-off.

Seems to me this works the other way 'round too, though not identically. My "straight" female friends have all had a default affinity for our gay male friends and acquaintances. I think this is due to two interrelated things: 1) they're both attracted to the same gender and so are in some degree of sync straight off; and 2) their friendships aren't complicated by the possibility/danger of romance.

-Dave-

[Rob C]

Seems to me this works the other way 'round too, though not identically. My "straight" female friends have all had a default affinity for our gay male friends and acquaintances. I think this is due to two interrelated things: 1) they're both attracted to the same gender and so are in some degree of sync straight off; and 2) their friendships aren't complicated by the possibility/danger of romance.

-Dave-

Regarding the second point, doesn't such a sterile relationship, DOA, mean that any such relationship holds no subliminal thrill at all, not even as hypothetical question? Is such a cold relationship worth the bother?

I mean, when one meets somebody attractive, married or otherwise, can one deny that the thought of being somewhat more intimate, and how that might feel, doesn't pass briefly through the mind? On the other hand, when the meeting is a decided turn-off, then doesn't a sense of relief flood throught one too, that no further action need even be contemplated, however academically that might be the case?

I think that sexual attraction is everwhere, as is its opposite. One can even detect it on the telephone in the voice of a stranger one has never, and will never meet. It's what sells music.

Rob

[KLaban]

Regarding the second point, doesn't such a sterile relationship, DOA, mean that any such relationship holds no subliminal thrill at all, not even as hypothetical question? Is such a cold relationship worth the bother?

I mean, when one meets somebody attractive, married or otherwise, can one deny that the thought of being somewhat more intimate, and how that might feel, doesn't pass briefly through the mind? On the other hand, when the meeting is a decided turn-off, then doesn't a sense of relief flood throught one too, that no further action need even be contemplated, however academically that might be the case?

I think that sexual attraction is everwhere, as is its opposite. One can even detect it on the telephone in the voice of a stranger one has never, and will never meet. It's what sells music.

Rob

I've many friends that I wouldn't want to shag.

;-)

[Rob C]

I've many friends that I wouldn't want to shag.

;-)

I don't know anybody anymore with whom I would feel inclined to play games. That I inspire similar thoughts is a given.

I was about to say there's a relief in that, but then where would that leave the rest of the argument?

:-)

Rob


P.S.

Thinking deeper thoughts on this, I could write a list of ladies in their 40s/50s that I do not know at all, but from their publicity shots, would love to know very well. Not a young model makes that list, not because of numbers, but because lack of interest in the vacuous.

[KLaban]

Thinking deeper thoughts on this, I could write a list of ladies in their 40s/50s that I do not know at all, but from their publicity shots, would love to know very well. Not a young model makes that list, not because of numbers, but because lack of interest in the vacuous.

I've never been in the position that I've had to or even wanted to think of women in terms of models or publicity shots or had lists of either, so perhaps I've had a different starting point. I've admired women who are 'conventionally' beautiful and others who aren't. I've certainly been attracted to both in equal measure. I also know young women who are anything but vacuous, they're not models but I would doubt all young models are.

[Rob C]

I've never been in the position that I've had to or even wanted to think of women in terms of models or publicity shots or had lists of either, so perhaps I've had a different starting point. I've admired women who are 'conventionally' beautiful and others who aren't. I've certainly been attracted to both in equal measure. I also know young women who are anything but vacuous, they're not models but I would doubt all young models are.

I'm sure they are not, but then again many have been. Guess it's who you get to know, but the bright ones have been, in my experience, few and far between. Maybe that's why the exceptions are memorable... it's not an occupation that usually pulls in the brighter minds - I think the overall occupational boredom must preclude that. It does help if they read, though, because they get a lot of time for doing that on a trip.

[Telecaster]

Regarding the second point, doesn't such a sterile relationship, DOA, mean that any such relationship holds no subliminal thrill at all, not even as hypothetical question? Is such a cold relationship worth the bother?

A very strange question IMO.    I presume you have or have had male friends IRL, and that those friendships haven't had an attraction/desire component but yet haven't been sterile or cold either. Male/female friendships can work the same way and still be rich and warm. My pal Patty's husband has been fine with her spending time with me throughout their marriage (35 years now), even fine with the two of us gallivanting across the country for extended periods, because he's always understood I'm like one of her brothers rather than a potential competitor.

-Dave-

[Rob C]

A very strange question IMO.    I presume you have or have had male friends IRL, and that those friendships haven't had an attraction/desire component but yet haven't been sterile or cold either. Male/female friendships can work the same way and still be rich and warm. My pal Patty's husband has been fine with her spending time with me throughout their marriage (35 years now), even fine with the two of us gallivanting across the country for extended periods, because he's always understood I'm like one of her brothers rather than a potential competitor.

-Dave-

I have known a lot of guys, but I wouldn't confuse an acquaintance with a friend, a very much more rare animal. I think male friendship (in the loose interpretation) is mainly about common advantage in the sense of each being of some value to the other. I find that the whole concept of friendship changes dramatically with the age in which one finds oneself. In schoool, it's about a sort of ganging up for mutual protection and affirmation; as you get into work it's about forwarding career, and as you reach the end of that period it's about shared interests in what you can still do in your spare time. As you lose partners to death you realise that you, as individual, were never the friend, but simply part of the double-act that formed the friend entity. You have no idea how common that is out here, where couples lose partners and, with that, their social circle shrinks to vanishing point: a spare rib doesn't sit well at a formal dinner, and it's even worse for the lone female.

Fortunately for me, most of the friends we had died off or moved back to Britain and died there whilst my own wife was still alive. That meant that our own shrinking circle - never that huge anyway - was something that we had both grown to accept and survive with ease. When she died, I was left running on empty, which is how it's been for almost ten years. I  believe that only my years in boarding school (which I hated) gave me the character and will to survive the loss. Sure, photography helped a lot, as did a place such as LuLa, but I can't change my own personality and so there was little comfort to be found spending time with the rest of the lone males in the expat community. I can't drink anymore because of heart issues, and there is little more boring than inebriated conversation when you are stone cold sober. Frankly, I'm better off with the Internet or playing with some snaps of window reflections. At least the accompanying music is to my taste and free!

I am sometimes asked if I am lonely. No, I am not; I am alone. If I desired the crowd it is there, to drift into and out of as does the rest of the population that forms it.

;-)

[Two23]

I am sometimes asked if I am lonely. No, I am not; I am alone. If I desired the crowd it is there, to drift into and out of as does the rest of the population that forms it.

;-)

You need a cat!  The friendly kind.  I guess they're all friendly if you feed them.   As for crowds, ironically the times I feel most lonely is when I'm in one.


Kent in SD

[Alan Klein]

All news is negative. it would not matter if it was Trump or not.
It does not help if you keep prodding the media though.

When was the last time you saw a good news story?

There is a well known saying in media " Good news is NO news".

Certainly, "bad" news captures more attention often.  But a newspaper like the NY Times should be reporting good news as well.  International conferences where things are settled do command headlines.  Wouldn't a peace treaty ending the 65 year old Korean War be good news AND  command page 1 headlines?  I think so even if you don't.  However, if the newspaper opposes the leader politically, the headlines could be written in a way that would diminish the important news so the leader doesn't gain political advantage.  There's a lot of that going on today.  Blaming the leader for "prodding" the media is a copout.  The media, if they claim to be honest and non-biased, should leave the news section as a news section and use their op-ed editorial section to make present their preferences.  How you write headlines or how to caption a photo, could distort the truth of the underlying news or photo.

[Ivo_B]

Writing as a 'non-complicated' guy, I believe that most guys I know are quite interested in the concept of Sappho; however, the sexual opposite, male homosexuality is a decided turn-off.

Perhaps it's because of photography and the associated familiarity with the fair sex that makes me feel quite comfortable with the lesbian idea - I could be entirely mistaken, I'd need confirmation from one (which I would never presume to solicit) that the influence of makeup and the massive obsession with looks is partly what creates the urge within some women to appreciate one another a bit more than usual, but on the other hand, some published examples would prove looks to be not a driver, but perhaps a case of last resort. Who really knows, one way or the other?

However, even there, there are limits to where I'd like film or stills to venture.

An interesting situation.

I forget: how did we get here?

Rob

Well, I had a good friend who was Lesbian. Very nice girl, really. And to be honest, It could have been working, me and here, I would not object to a second woman in bed. :-)
But then, at a certain evening, we effectively ended up with 3 in bed. And damned, I didn't have a thing to bring in . I was literally a quantité négligeable. :-)

We spent lot's of evenings in a local Lesbian bar, and one evening i took here for a dance. Next thing I remember was I was laying on the floor with a gap in my head. Some jealous woman hit me with a Marlboro ashtray.

Apart from this short story, I can testify the elegant Lesbian's on tv or in films are seldom found on the Lesbian scene. And the last woman I want to be found dead with, is one that pretends to have a dick. :-)

[Rob C]

Well, I had a good friend who was Lesbian. Very nice girl, really. And to be honest, It could have been working, me and here, I would not object to a second woman in bed. :-)
But then, at a certain evening, we effectively ended up with 3 in bed. And damned, I didn't have a thing to bring in . I was literally a quantité négligeable. :-)

We spent lot's of evenings in a local Lesbian bar, and one evening i took here for a dance. Next thing I remember was I was laying on the floor with a gap in my head. Some jealous woman hit me with a Marlboro ashtray.

Apart from this short story, I can testify the elegant Lesbian's on tv or in films are seldom found on the Lesbian scene. And the last woman I want to be found dead with, is one that pretends to have a dick. :-)

I always knew cigarettes were bad for people, even when I used to smoke.

:-)

[Rob C]

You need a cat!  The friendly kind.  I guess they're all friendly if you feed them.   As for crowds, ironically the times I feel most lonely is when I'm in one.


Kent in SD

Cats! At one stage we were feeding about 23 or 25 of them, all from two females abandoned by their mother one day: she stopped at the foot of our terrace, studied our alsabrador for a moment, realised she was just a huge pussycat, and never came back for the kittens. She did well. Then, some years later as we came home from a trip, we discovered a self-styled animal lover had poisoned them after lifting two males and hiding them in her apartment as she fed the rest death. She sold, eventually, and the two males reverted to us, where they lived to a ripe old age.

What I would love is an Alsatian, but it would be very unfair to any animal to become my friend; it would most certainly outlive me, and there is no rosy future for large, potentially dangerous animals in new homes. That would be selfishness run amok!

Rob

[Alan Klein]

Could we get back to my topic?  I really don't care about cats or who you sleep with.  Start your own threads.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Could we get back to my topic?  I really don't care about cats or who you sleep with.  Start your own threads.

You are right. However, getting back to your topic would mean a political discussion. You'd be better off just locking the thread yourself. Otherwise, we might even get some pictures of cats. Or lesbians.

[amolitor]

Does a photograph lie? Does the caption?

It is more complicated than that. A photograph, an unmanipulated photograph let us stipulate, represents a literal point of view. As far as that goes, it is "true":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_claim_(photography)

A caption has more scope for lying, it can be simply factually wrong, it can be willfully wrong, such is the nature of language. There is no equivalent of the Truth Claim for words.

But to get at the thing you need to have some notion of what you even mean by truth. Not to scramble down a philosophical rathole here, but, in my favorite example, "what was the cause of the First World War" jumps to mind. There is no glib singular "truth" here, and there may not even be a lengthy book-sized truth to be had here. The one thing we can be sure of is that the assassination of Ferdinand was not in any meaningful way the cause.

Once you have your arms around something like the "truth" of a situation, assuming that yours is one of those where it is possible to get your arms around it, what then does it mean to for a photograph, or a caption, or a combination of them, to be true?

Must it align factually with the little details of the truth, even if the overall impression it yields is the opposite of the big picture?

Or may it skim over and play games with the little details, if the overall impression aligns with the "truth"?

Must it do both? Must it, that is, align at every possible level of detail?

These are complicated questions, once you start digging. A reasonable, albeit flawed, starting point is Believing Is Seeing: Observations on the Mysteries of Photography by Errol Morris. I find his analysis flawed, but the raw material he digs up is mostly excellent, except the bits about the clock on the mantelpiece as shot by Walker Evans.

[Rob C]

You are right. However, getting back to your topic would mean a political discussion. You'd be better off just locking the thread yourself. Otherwise, we might even get some pictures of cats. Or lesbians.

Three cats under a hot tin roof, just for an anxious Slobodan: