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Author Topic: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing  (Read 13562 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2018, 02:59:20 pm »

I didn't say I don't understand the differences.
One simply has to search for ? and your name, there's plenty of questions from you that suggest you do not know the differences. So yeah, I did read the questions!

Maybe I'm missing something or looking at the wrong rings.
Agreed.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 03:05:17 pm by digitaldog »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2018, 03:01:32 pm »

May I recommend that this discussion stick with technicalities?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2018, 03:05:07 pm »

The image in the pdf looks to be a scan from text for the college class. However, the visual effect is real. I copied the ring onto the two right hand circles so the circle colors, as ratty as they are, shows the same apparent color shift.
The effect is in many colorful images but is not noticed because we don't normally compare the way a color looks in a scene with one isolated from its context. Put another way, the context a specific RGB triplet exists in determines its color appearance. The same triplet in a different context can appear to have a different color. The rings are just a simple way to demonstrate the effect.

I thought on this a bit as to when and where this would be an issue in real world applications and I was reminded of my graphic art classes on color design where a furniture designer for an interior designer decided not to use a neutral gray pinstripe trim with a baby blue covered sofa where the gray may appear orange instead of true gray and instead went with a greenish gray.

Now I don't know if visually that kind of color trick on the eyes would really happen because that was a hypothetical, but it's the only situation where this would be an issue.
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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2018, 03:06:45 pm »

Now I don't know if visually that kind of color trick on the eyes would really happen because that was a hypothetical, but it's the only situation where this would be an issue.
I agree with you.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2018, 03:08:33 pm »

I agree with you.

I really don't respect you, Andrew, with answers like that. Why don't you just ignore me. You aren't any help.

And if you're a teacher of some school I'ld hate to see kids see you act like this. You're not helping!
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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2018, 03:10:44 pm »

Some people will never learn anything well, because they understand everything too soon.-Source Unknown
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2018, 03:12:50 pm »

Guys - can we move on? This kind of dialog impairs the reputation of our forum. I'm no moderator, but in our shared interest I am suggesting yet again that participants keep it civil and technical.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2018, 03:12:53 pm »

Some people will never learn anything well, because they understand everything too soon.-Source Unknown

Blame the teacher. They're the ones with the most resources.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 03:14:51 pm »

Guys - can we move on? This kind of dialog impairs the reputation of our forum. I'm no moderator, but in our shared interest I am suggesting yet again that participants keep it civil and technical.

I don't think Andrew is capable of moving on. He's the only person I've seen behave like this.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2018, 03:21:01 pm »

Let us not prejudge what human beings are capable of. :-) I shall leave it at that.
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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2018, 03:22:01 pm »

May I recommend that this discussion stick with technicalities?
I don't know how Doug could make this any easier for everyone to understand but apparently at least one person here doesn't understand it:
Put another way, the context a specific RGB triplet exists in determines its color appearance. The same triplet in a different context can appear to have a different color. The rings are just a simple way to demonstrate the effect.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2018, 03:22:49 pm »

Let us not prejudge what human beings are capable of. :-) I shall leave it at that.

I'll let law enforcement authorities do the prejudging.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2018, 03:25:43 pm »

I don't know how Doug could make this any easier for everyone to understand but apparently at least one person here doesn't understand it:

Show how this knowledge of color will be used to help a photographer make better photographs. What are the technicalities of when and where this will occur?
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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2018, 03:29:37 pm »

Show how this knowledge of color will be used to help a photographer make better photographs. What are the technicalities of when and where this will occur?
Some are not actual photographers capable of making better photographs no matter how much or little knowledge of color they don't have.
Good luck Doug.....
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Doug Gray

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2018, 03:32:05 pm »

I thought on this a bit as to when and where this would be an issue in real world applications and I was reminded of my graphic art classes on color design where a furniture designer for an interior designer decided not to use a neutral gray pinstripe trim with a baby blue covered sofa where the gray may appear orange instead of true gray and instead went with a greenish gray.

Now I don't know if visually that kind of color trick on the eyes would really happen because that was a hypothetical, but it's the only situation where this would be an issue.

This is a good example of the instructor understanding how color appearance shifts in context.  Designers that combine colors in fabrics experiment to determine what looks best. Trying to make things like pinstripes look neutral when surrounded by saturated, similarly hued colors, is where the art of the designer comes in.

Another analogy might be comparing photography and printing with pottery and firing in a kiln. A kiln is a tool, subject to precise engineering, but the potter's creations are art. Getting the expected result from a kiln has improved over the ages as temp measurement has become much more precise but the primary art is the potter's. She does benefit from being able to get reproducible results from a kiln or a new one when goes somewhere else. And, like paper varies, firing in a kiln where different things are volatilized into it's atmosphere at different stages can enhance the art, and that process can be made reproducible by precision techniques.

This is a printer subforum. Most, but not all, of the art is in the photograph and paper.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2018, 03:39:00 pm »

This is a good example of the instructor understanding how color appearance shifts in context.  Designers that combine colors in fabrics experiment to determine what looks best. Trying to make things like pinstripes look neutral when surrounded by saturated, similarly hued colors, is where the art of the designer comes in.

Another analogy might be comparing photography and printing with pottery and firing in a kiln. A kiln is a tool, subject to precise engineering, but the potter's creations are art. Getting the expected result from a kiln has improved over the ages as temp measurement has become much more precise but the primary art is the potter's. She does benefit from being able to get reproducible results from a kiln or a new one when goes somewhere else. And, like paper varies, firing in a kiln where different things are volatilized into it's atmosphere at different stages can enhance the art, and that process can be made reproducible by precision techniques.

This is a printer subforum. Most, but not all, of the art is in the photograph and paper.

But where is this trick on eyes with regard to color perception occurring in the kiln and pottery? Was that just an analogy or metaphor for art in general or was that a scientific explanation of how color perception is skewed in the form of an optical effect?

Sorry, Doug, but I was hoping for something more clear.

Quote from Andrew...
Quote
"Some are not actual photographers..."

Yes, like you. So how does that help explain what I'm asking about?

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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2018, 03:41:35 pm »

Yes, like you.
You've shot how many national ad campaigns, annual reports, magazine covers? Ask me.
Quote
So how does that help explain what I'm asking about?
It's all been explained already!
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2018, 03:45:40 pm »

You've shot how many national ad campaigns, annual reports, magazine covers?

So I'm assuming you shot those national ad campaigns and no longer do so. With that said, when did you encounter this color appearance effect in your former days as a photographer? Can you give a real world example?
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digitaldog

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2018, 03:48:28 pm »

So I'm assuming you shot those national ad campaigns and no longer do so.
Yes. I'm assuming you've never ever done so.
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With that said, when did you encounter this color appearance effect in your former days as a photographer? Can you give a real world example?
Yes! Shooting an Annual report for GTE. Had to shoot multiple color papers curled 4x5 on film and one was a mile off from what we saw and the others. Metameric failure. Clever fix too!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 03:53:10 pm by digitaldog »
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Doug Gray

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Re: Stupidest question ever : ( Hard proofing
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2018, 03:55:24 pm »

But where is this trick on eyes with regard to color perception occurring in the kiln and pottery? Was that just an analogy or metaphor for art in general or was that a scientific explanation of how color perception is skewed in the form of an optical effect?

Sorry, Doug, but I was hoping for something more clear.

It's just an analogy. A printer is a tool. An image that is in gamut of two printers profiled with the same equipment ideally should produce prints indistinguishable from each other. But this is not true except under certain conditions with glossy type papers (and here questions of art and esthetics are involved) however, with good, fine textured Matte papers that have no OBAs, prints I make on a 9500 look identical to those printed on the 9800 and should with other printers as well. They are also very close to how they appear soft proofing.

Now for images that are out of gamut the printers can produce different results. Especially with different profile makers. And some may prefer one profile vendor and Intent over another. However, a properly made profile that one likes the print (or softproof) for can be used to create an image that will match when printed on the same or another printer with a different profile via Photoshop conversion techniques. At least when the second printer has a gamut that is a superset of the first printer's gamut.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 05:03:49 pm by Doug Gray »
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