long live NRA - next convention in Mandalay Bay !

[Robert Roaldi]

I wonder if anyone has read this article: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/

The suggestion is that in its worship of the gun the United States is practising human sacrifice on a scale undreamed of by the pre-modern sacrificial cults we though we had moved beyond. Only we haven't. Horrifying, but very persuasive. I suppose stricter controls and tighter laws would be the sensible outcome but no betting on that happening, alas.

There is a book by A.J. Somerset called Arms: Culture and Credo of the Gun that is largely about the fetishization of gun and gun culture. The author is an ex gun guy and hunter, maybe ex-military (can't remember), so he's not the usual "left-wing liberal" Canadian, who might therefore have no credibility.

Canada has strict laws about handguns and concealed weapons, and has mandatory procedures that need to be followed if you want a rifle to go hunting or if a farmer needs a varmint gun. There are lots of guns in Canada, anyone who wants to go hunting can, and farmers can shoot pests. Which is my way of saying that "gun control" does not destroy civilization nor take away anyone's "freedom".

[RSL]

On average at much lower rates vs. gun killings in the US. So your comparison isn't really supporting your case, to the contrary I'd say.

But if you feel safer carrying a gun around that's fine, to each his own.

Okay, Pieter, give me a percentage figure based on population. From what I've been reading it sounds as if both France and Germany are having murder rates relative to their populations roughly equivalent to what we're experiencing. Of course, I'd like to leave out Chicago and Baltimore, two completely left-wing jurisdictions where gun control is being attempted.

The problem with the whole gun control idea is that it controls guns in the hands of people who aren't criminals but does nothing to control guns in the hands of criminals.

But I can see that this is thread is going to degenerate into Trump II type mental retardation, so I'm outta here.

[digitaldog]

The problem with the whole gun control idea is that it controls guns in the hands of people who aren't criminals but does nothing to control guns in the hands of criminals.

Do you have any data that proves it does nothing to control guns in the hands of criminals or those who are mentally ill? Was the Vegas shooter a criminal before this event? Seems not the case. Yet no problem gathering up many assault rifles which the NRA will tell us we must be able to own. Why not a machine gun? Or a grenade launcher?

[Alan Goldhammer]

According to the Washington Post the death toll is now at 58.  The gunman was on the 32nd floor of the hotel and unless there was someone on that floor with a gun there is not much that could have been done to stop this kind of carnage.  In my mind any mass shooting or bombing (as with the Oklahoma City federal building bombing some years ago) is a case of domestic terrorism whether carried out by one, two or a group of people.  The reckless slaughter of innocent human beings is terrorism plain and simple.  The NRA cannot explain this one away.

[digitaldog]

The NRA cannot explain this one away.

They can and will but it will be mostly a load of rubbish. The actual fake news some in office think is real news. So very sad.

[Robert Roaldi]

Okay, Pieter, give me a percentage figure based on population. From what I've been reading it sounds as if both France and Germany are having murder rates relative to their populations roughly equivalent to what we're experiencing. Of course, I'd like to leave out Chicago and Baltimore, two completely left-wing jurisdictions where gun control is being attempted.

The problem with the whole gun control idea is that it controls guns in the hands of people who aren't criminals but does nothing to control guns in the hands of criminals.

But I can see that this is thread is going to degenerate into Trump II type mental retardation, so I'm outta here.

Like I said in my previous entry, no need to change one's thinking when things are going so well.

[Jim Pascoe]

So what the hell difference does it make, Jim? A killer is a killer is a killer. With a gun I at least can defend myself. If the truck is hurtling toward me I at least have a chance to shoot the driver. You're right, real terrorists will always get through. So will nuts like this guy and like Oswald when he shot John Kennedy and like Sirhan Sirhan when he shot Robert Kennedy, both of whom were being guarded by our best? security. You're implying that "real terrorists" don't carry out mass killings, but I'm pretty sure the survivors of 9/11 would disagree. And anybody can make a bomb. It's a piece of cake. If you don't know how to do it you can google it.

Russ - I respect your views, but do not agree with them.  My post was in your response to yours, claiming that in other places they use bombs or trucks to mow down victims.  My point was yes, terrorists do use those means, but not usually unhinged individuals.  No matter how repugnant we find terrorist acts - the reason we need to distinguish between terrorists and random mass - murderers is that terrorists usually have a political aim.  That aim may be flawed and it may be nonsensical to us - but they do have a motivation.  Most of the mass shootings in the US seem to be carried out by disgruntled individuals. 

The reason we need to distinguish between the motivations is in order to find ways to prevent the attack.  Gun control may not prevent terrorist attacks, but it just might prevent random acts such as the latest event.  Threat of punishment in either case is no deterrent because they mostly seem suicidal.

The problem with allowing every sane person to have a gun is that a certain percentage of those sane people will have a bad day, and possibly shoot their neighbour, partner or a load of random folk.  If a man with a gun walks up your road when you are out front gardening and shoots you - your gun hanging up in the house will not save you.  Unless you all do spend your whole life carrying a gun wherever.  Even then a smart killer will not be giving notice of their intent.


But like you - I cannot see much future in this thread because there are too many minds already made up.

Jim

[rodney.dugmore]

Okay, Pieter, give me a percentage figure based on population.

But I can see that this is thread is going to degenerate into Trump II type mental retardation, so I'm outta here.

Hardly empirical being wiki but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Still looks like Iraq has a better record . The evidence suggests that the brain dead are American NRA and trump supporters .  Yeah see how having the right to bear arms helped all those folks in Nevada. Oh by the same logic there is this dude in Korea who wants the right to bear H bombs just to defend himself I hear some folks in America are upset about this.

[Jim Pascoe]

Okay, Pieter, give me a percentage figure based on population. From what I've been reading it sounds as if both France and Germany are having murder rates relative to their populations roughly equivalent to what we're experiencing. Of course, I'd like to leave out Chicago and Baltimore, two completely left-wing jurisdictions where gun control is being attempted.

The problem with the whole gun control idea is that it controls guns in the hands of people who aren't criminals but does nothing to control guns in the hands of criminals.

But I can see that this is thread is going to degenerate into Trump II type mental retardation, so I'm outta here.

I did do a quick look online at murder rates relative to population.  A few picked at random - figures per 100,000 population


Germany 0.85

United Kingdom 0.92

France 1.58

USA 4.88

So not too bad overall for the US - only five times the rate of Germany and the UK and only three times that of France.  But safe compared to Russia on 11.31.  Still, possibly room for improvement.  And you cannot cherry pick cities otherwise we could leave out London and Manchester and in the UK we would be as safe as on the Moon.

Jim

[RSL]

Jim, I can't resist getting back in for one more shot: Look at it this way. All this shooting is practice for when we have to go overseas to Europe or Asia and bail their asses out of the hole they're in because they never learned to shoot straight.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Relevant again, sadly.

Jeremy

[Rob C]

Well, I can agree that terrorists are not to be confused with "ordinary" nutters who have a gun and use it on other people. Terrorist have to have a philosophy, a belief system to which they subscribe; in other words, a common agenda with others of similar mind, that could be one of religion, of politics. These people are not to be confused with common criminals who simply want to rob you, or with folks who are high on drugs. Terrorists think they are in a war situation. That war has even been declared out loud.

I can't see how anyone not involved in terrorism would do this kind of thing and be of sound mind. That they do, that they find so many weapons and so much ammunition available is quite unbelievable; surely, the least one should have to do before buying more ammo is account for the use of ammunition: why are you shooting anywhere outwith a target range, anyway, where use can be verified before you buy more shots?

Not much, but it might prevent some of the stocking of arsenals.

Of course, it's not gonna happen.

Rob

[Manoli]

The Economist: America's deadliest mass shooting

At least 58 people are killed and 515 injured in a shooting in Las Vegas
A gunman opened fire from a high-rise hotel on a crowd that had gathered for a country-music festival

[..]

American politicians routinely warn against “politicising” mass shootings. Although they take to the airwaves to discuss airline safety in the wake of a plane crash or security measures after a terrorist attack, discussing gun laws after a lunatic shoots scores of people to death—asking whether, perhaps, the ease of obtaining weapons in America might have something to do with the frequency with which mass murderers kill people with firearms—is understood to somehow be in bad taste. So let’s not mention the massacres at Port Arthur and Dunblane, which prompted Australia and Britain to pass more restrictive gun laws that dramatically reduced the risk of dying by gunshot in both countries.

This week the House of Representatives could pass the “Hearing Protection Act”, which rolls back restrictions on gun silencers. It was supposed to be taken up in June, but was postponed after a gunman opened fire on a congressional softball game. Separate legislation in the House would allow holders of concealed-carry permits to carry their weapons in other states with more restrictive licensing—effectively gutting state-level concealment restrictions. As Barack Obama said after a married couple slaughtered 14 people in San Bernardino, California with legally bought guns, “We’ve become numb to this…This is a political choice we make to allow this to happen every few months in America.”

[tom b]

1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days: America's gun crisis – in one chart.

The attack at a country music festival in Las Vegas that left at least 58 people dead is the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history – but there were six other mass shootings in America this past week alone.

No other developed nation comes close to the rate of gun violence in America. Americans own an estimated 265m guns, more than one gun for every adult.

Mass shootings

What the…

[James Clark]

1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days: America's gun crisis – in one chart.

The attack at a country music festival in Las Vegas that left at least 58 people dead is the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history – but there were six other mass shootings in America this past week alone.

No other developed nation comes close to the rate of gun violence in America. Americans own an estimated 265m guns, more than one gun for every adult.

Mass shootings

What the…

Additional pertinent data

[Jim Pascoe]

Jim, I can't resist getting back in for one more shot: Look at it this way. All this shooting is practice for when we have to go overseas to Europe or Asia and bail their asses out of the hole they're in because they never learned to shoot straight.

Well I suppose a bit of black humour never goes amiss.......

Ultimately there are no easy answers and I don't for one minute suggest there are.  I can say that me and my family are sickened and saddened by what has happened, and our thoughts are with all those caught up in this madness.  And without pitching one nationality against another, and irrespective of race, colour or religion - we are all in this together.

Jim

[Raul_82]

They can and will but it will be mostly a load of rubbish. The actual fake news some in office think is real news. So very sad.

"This could have been prevented if everyone in the audience had some basic weapons training, a sniper rifle, and the ability to locate an enemy sniper"

If you think I'm joking, look at what the NRA has said about school shootings.

[bassman51]

Just waiting for the "Now isn't the time for this conversation." announcement in response to changing any laws.
I agree it's late but not too late to act at all.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/02/white-house-trump-las-vegas-gun-debate-243371

[MattBurt]

Good thing I don't like waiting. I guess.

[Robert Roaldi]

Why is it useful for people to own gun silencers: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/02/congress-gun-silencer-bill-las-vegas-243366?lo=ap_a1?