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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 117883 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #280 on: April 03, 2017, 03:43:49 pm »

where's the money coming from to pay for all these new techniques?

Electricity producers that replace their old power generating facilities (coal, natural gas) as they reach their economic end-of-life, venture capitalists, private investors, smaller collectives (giving out bonds or shares), and home owners. They all take a piece of the action. A company like Google just started building another Datacenter here in the Netherlands and they will also build a large windfarm with renewable energy to power it (https://blog.google/topics/google-europe/dutch-datacenter-google-100-renewable-energy/).

Energy producers are building windfarms and Solar PV farms, and collectives of several thousand people are putting PCs on top of schools and other large area storage spaces and private persons can purchase bonds or shares and can get a reduction on their energy bill.

Not all private homes have an optimal orientation or roof space, but those who do can put PV panels on them and reduce their energy consumption they would otherwise have to buy from large energy producers or even sell their overcapacity back to those large producers.

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It would seem that existing grids would continue to use existing power generator stations that use coal or at the most switch over to gas.

Yes, but in a transition towards the end-of-life of their large production facilities and the ultimate replacement will unlikely be coal based.

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Also,  as Alan G posted apartment buildings and many homes don't lens themselves to solar panels on rooves.  Congrats areas like the DC NYC  Boston corridor are to crowded.   Also, areas in the north don't get enough sun as do areas on winter.

That depends, my country is roughly at the same latitude as the USA/Canadian border, and there is an increasing amount of PV energy produced by private homes and collective solar parks, but also windfarms produce increasing amounts of energy

Here is the production result of one solar PV park (2900 panels) good for some 225 households, and they also have 3 additional windfarms with 16 turbines. Together, they produced enough energy last February to supply the required energy for some 29081 households.

So it is not a question of either/or, but it is both supplementing each other. The renewable part is growing as more units are installed and technology improves the conversion efficiency.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:28:37 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Farmer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #281 on: April 03, 2017, 03:45:40 pm »

Here is a solution from Tesla's Elon Musk for Australia http://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-elon-musk-australia-power-island

And it's being looked at (batteries, be they Tesla or otherwise).
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #282 on: April 03, 2017, 03:59:52 pm »

Solar panels are ugly, to boot. How do you repair and replace the roof when you have too?  Do people consider those costs when they buy solar?  What's the real ROI on solar? 
The installation companies do a roof assessment before the panels are installed and I believe also provide a warranty on the roof.  The ROI is positive.  Our neighbors who have them have pretty much a zero electric bill as they sell excess electricity generated during the day back to the gird.  We haven't done this as we probably will not be in our house for the necessary time to make it pay off.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #283 on: April 03, 2017, 04:00:29 pm »

In defence of 'real' scientists, I will admit that the certainty expressed about the effects of CO2 and the so-called 97% consensus is merely a political tactic to get people motivated.

Why would they want to "motivate" people?  And for that matter, motivate them to do what?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #284 on: April 03, 2017, 04:02:03 pm »

Solar panels are ugly, to boot. How do you repair and replace the roof when you have too?  Do people consider those costs when they buy solar?  What's the real ROI on solar?

Breakeven after some 10 years, profit from then on. A lot depends on local energy prices, solar PV location/orientation, and local climate (cloudy/sunny).

Here's some more background:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/solar-power-is-it-for-you/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/for-a-brighter-future-science-looks-to-re-energize-the-common-solar-cell/

And large corporations also reduce their Utility power requirements by building their own solar PV energy suppplies:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/03/amazon-to-cover-millions-in-warehouse-rooftop-square-footage-with-solar-panels/

Cheers,
Bart
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #285 on: April 03, 2017, 04:21:18 pm »

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Solar panels are ugly, to boot. How do you repair and replace the roof when you have too?  Do people consider those costs when they buy solar?  What's the real ROI on solar? 

Not as ugly as some of those silly gable roofs. Which are also more expensive to repair and replace.
Do those fly-by-night architects who fancy themselves as a modern Michelangelo consider the maintenance of such abominations?
 
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #286 on: April 03, 2017, 04:30:06 pm »

The installation companies do a roof assessment before the panels are installed and I believe also provide a warranty on the roof.  The ROI is positive.  Our neighbors who have them have pretty much a zero electric bill as they sell excess electricity generated during the day back to the gird.  We haven't done this as we probably will not be in our house for the necessary time to make it pay off.
ROI (Return on Investment)  is time based.  I assume it's positive.  How long to pay back the original costs?  When I dealt with real estate owners and managements companies, they weren't interested in energy reduction systems unless the ROI was 3 years, maybe up to 5 years.  What's it with residential solar ?

I assume the solar company provides a warranty for any damage they do to the roof during installation.  I was referring to regular roof replacement due to age.  You have to deal then with the costs to temporarily remove and reinstall the solar system.  How much is that?  What about warranties by the company doing the solar work?  How do you get electricity into your home during the roofing replacement?  What if you're off the grid entirely because of batteries during the work?

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #287 on: April 03, 2017, 04:43:52 pm »

Breakeven after some 10 years, profit from then on. A lot depends on local energy prices, solar PV location/orientation, and local climate (cloudy/sunny).

Here's some more background:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/solar-power-is-it-for-you/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/for-a-brighter-future-science-looks-to-re-energize-the-common-solar-cell/

And large corporations also reduce their Utility power requirements by building their own solar PV energy suppplies:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/03/amazon-to-cover-millions-in-warehouse-rooftop-square-footage-with-solar-panels/

Cheers,
Bart
In the example you provided, there was an approximate 7% return in value for a residential solar system.  However, the savings did not include depreciation-the panels and equipment will eventually have to be replaced like hot water heaters, washing machines and other equipment.  They also did not cover maintenance and repairs.  Things do break, panels get dirty and have to be cleaned, etc.   What happens when the roof has to be repaired, etc?  What's the costs to temporarily remove and replace it?    The report also indicates that some of the installation was offset by a rebate, not figured in the costs and savings calculations. 

If I presented a proposal to one of my real estate clients for an energy management system that left these kind of things out of the analysis of savings and costs, he'd throw me out of his office.  So the real payback might not be ten years but 15 years, maybe more.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #288 on: April 03, 2017, 04:46:11 pm »

Depreciation and life cycle.

Chairman Bill

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #289 on: April 03, 2017, 04:52:11 pm »

I think that all anyone really needs to know, is that the claimed 'Anthropogenic Climate Change' is due to lizard alien overlords, and their attempt to impose a New World Order in conjunction with the Free Masons, the Vatican and the Bilderberg Group. It's all about creating an atmosphere more readily amenable to the lizard aliens, who need atmospheric carbon reduced, in order to fully materialise, without having to hide in holographic projections that make them appear human. Donald Trump is the world's only hope.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #290 on: April 03, 2017, 05:00:52 pm »

Depreciation and life cycle.

Versus rising energy bills from utility companies?

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #291 on: April 03, 2017, 05:32:29 pm »

Versus rising energy bills from utility companies?

Cheers,
Bart
I'm only interested in the true costs and savings of solar panels on the roof for my home.  There are others in my neighborhood that have them.  But I'm not convinced.   Is the payback really there?  Are the headaches worth it?    My luck, two weeks after I install them, some goose will fall out of the sky and break it. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #292 on: April 03, 2017, 05:34:00 pm »

Or worse, the goose will crap on it and on the way up to clean it off I'll fall off the ladder and break my neck.

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #293 on: April 03, 2017, 05:51:23 pm »

Hans, the new houses whose prices start at $1.5 million tend to have these gabled roof designs that are not amendable to standard solar panels.  Each roof section is too small in area.  Dow Chemical had developed solar shingles that could have been used in such designs but the shingles were not cost competitive and have been withdrawn from the market.

Yes, I have seen several comments being sceptical about this approach. Nevertheless Tesla has announced such tiles which will begin delivery this year http://nordic.businessinsider.com/tesla-solar-roof-solar-city-features-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #294 on: April 03, 2017, 06:20:53 pm »

I think that all anyone really needs to know, is that the claimed 'Anthropogenic Climate Change' is due to lizard alien overlords, and their attempt to impose a New World Order in conjunction with the Free Masons, the Vatican and the Bilderberg Group. It's all about creating an atmosphere more readily amenable to the lizard aliens, who need atmospheric carbon reduced, in order to fully materialise, without having to hide in holographic projections that make them appear human. Donald Trump is the world's only hope.

Damn. The freemasons again.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #295 on: April 03, 2017, 07:26:32 pm »

I think that all anyone really needs to know, is that the claimed 'Anthropogenic Climate Change' is due to lizard alien overlords,... Donald Trump is the world's only hope.

FINALLY!  The truth is out!
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #296 on: April 03, 2017, 10:17:19 pm »

Yes, and we have now way of discerning whether you represent any type of consensus among those who post on LuLa in the absence of a lie detctor.

Well, I'm glad you have now woken up from your long YAWN, Alan.  :D

The only way anyone can discern anything is by using their nous. Everything has to be interpreted. The data gathered by researchers has to be interpreted. In the absence of hard evidence, one either follows the leader like a sheep, or one thinks for oneself and determines what is reasonable and likely.

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..you don't even have to do this as they all publish in the open scientific literature and their results are out there for anyone to try to poke a hole into.

Yes. Their interpreted results might be published in the open, but access to the original data for evaluation by other interested parties is usually not available. At least that's my understanding. This was one of the issues raised at the time of the Climategate scandal. The recommendation at the time was that the scientists should be more transparent. However, a couple of years later there was another leaking of emails indicating that things had not changed much.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2011/11/23/climategate-2-0-new-e-mails-rock-the-global-warming-debate/#68b0bc427ba6

"A new batch of 5,000 emails among scientists central to the assertion that humans are causing a global warming crisis were anonymously released to the public yesterday, igniting a new firestorm of controversy nearly two years to the day after similar emails ignited the Climategate scandal.

Three themes are emerging from the newly released emails: (1) prominent scientists central to the global warming debate are taking measures to conceal rather than disseminate underlying data and discussions; (2) these scientists view global warming as a political “cause” rather than a balanced scientific inquiry and (3) many of these scientists frankly admit to each other that much of the science is weak and dependent on deliberate manipulation of facts and data."


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Do you really believe in conspiracy theories?

Only when the evidence is sound. Conspiracies do occur in all areas of human activity, hence the existence of the word.
Definition:  "The act of two or more persons, called conspirators, working secretly to obtain some goal, usually understood with negative connotations."

People often associate the word conspiracy with major events such as the 9/11 attack, the assassination of John Kennedy, and very bizarrely that the Earth is flat, therefore the word conspire might be too extreme. Collude or Connive might be more appropriate in this context.

For example, sometimes an investment advisor employed by the Bank has a special relationship with a particular organisation which pays more to the advisor than another company which is in fact a better investment from the customer's perspective. There have been a few scandals in Australia over this type of collusion.

Doctors are often criticized for 'being in cahoots with' the Pharmacy industry and accepting lavish free meals at meetings to discuss the benefits of some new drug.

Some companies conspire to fix prices in order to avoid competition.

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Perhaps but also don't forget that it might just be you have bias in the other direction. Confirmational biases run in both directions.

Good! I'm glad you've admitted this. So often the AGW alarmists refuse to read any reports or opinions from scientists who have, or who have had in the past, an association with the fossil fuel industry, no matter how qualified such scientists may be, yet such people seem blind to the fact that government funding for climate research is dependent upon the scare about CO2 being maintained.

Some years ago, when Obama made the ridiculous comment that 'the science is settled', I posted on an AGW alarmist forum that I was very pleased with that news. This now means that we can divert most of the funding going to the climate research centres, to more productive areas, such as research into efficient renewables, and perhaps even offer retraining to some of the climate scientists who are made redundant, so they can be more productive doing research on solar panels, and so on.

Guess what? My post was censored.  ;D

As regards my own biases, I am biased towards 'not being biased'.  ;)

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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #297 on: April 03, 2017, 10:34:20 pm »

Speaking of biased researchers reminds me of the original Jurassic Park.  Remember the scene early in the movie when the male and female stars were digging in rock trying to expose a 65 million year old T-Rex.  When the owner of the park helicopters in and asks them to take time off from their work to assist him on a project on a small little island.  Well, the two paleontologist said no they can't as they are honestly devoted and committed to continue doing what they were doing uncovering rocks in the sandy desert.  So the park owner said that he would provide two years of funding for them to continue their research if they would go.  In a blink,  the two stars are on a little island being chased by a real T-Rex.

So much for honest devotion and commitment. 

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #298 on: April 04, 2017, 12:06:37 am »

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In defence of 'real' scientists, I will admit that the certainty expressed about the effects of CO2 and the so-called 97% consensus is merely a political tactic to get people motivated.

Why would they want to "motivate" people?  And for that matter, motivate them to do what?

Motivate them to accept higher electricity prices and taxes to pay for the massive subsidies to the renewable energy industry, of course. This is the job of politicians, to motive people to accept their policies.

Unfortunately, I don't see much motivation from politicians in Australia to spend public money on building dams and dykes to protect the citizens from the reasonable expectation that past flood events will continue, despite any rising or lowering of CO2 levels.

Just recently the north east coast of Australia experienced a severe cyclone (Debbie). They're not uncommon in that part of the country. However, cyclones tend to bring a lot of rain in the aftermath, after the winds have died down.

One city which is south of the cyclone, and which was out of the range of the strong winds so wasn't exposed to any damage, is now preparing itself for a major flooding. The city is Rockhampton, a few hundred kilometres north of Brisbane, and is situated in a basin around the Fitzroy river.

Now, if one looks at the history of flooding in Rockhampton, from reliable sources such as the Bureau of Meteorology, one discovers that these flooding events have occurred regularly since records were kept, since 1859. On average, there has occurred a major flooding every 20 years or so, and a minor flooding every 7 years. This current flood, which is rising as I write, will probably fall into the category of a major flood.

What must be puzzling for many people is why the government doesn't take measures to eliminate, or at least reduce the effects of such floods. Surely the total cost of the damage and disruption to economic activity, which occurs every 20 years or so, must be higher than the cost of fixing the problem.

My explanation for this lack of motivation to fix the problem, is that the concept of AGW alarmism is contradictory to alarmism about natural flood events, from the political perspective.

The alarm about CO2 rises is based on an assertion that extreme weather events will get worse, so that's the focus of attention. If politicians were to shift the public attention to the undeniable fact that natural causes of extreme weather events have been responsible for all the floods since 1860 in Rockhampton, and that these events have been continuing at approximately the same level and frequency for the past 160 years, and that we should therefore spend resources on fixing the problem, this would cause people to wonder which issue was more important; protecting themselves from a more certain repetition of natural events, or accepting the consequences of the natural events without doing anything about it, and focussing instead on the less certain proposition that floods will get worse.

There's no evidence that floods in Australia are getting worse. The worst flood in Rockhampton occurred in the 19th century. The fourth worst flood occurred in 2010/11.



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Chairman Bill

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #299 on: April 04, 2017, 01:16:22 am »

Speaking of biased researchers reminds me of the original Jurassic Park.  Remember the scene early in the movie when the male and female stars were digging in rock trying to expose a 65 million year old T-Rex.  When the owner of the park helicopters in and asks them to take time off from their work to assist him on a project on a small little island.  Well, the two paleontologist said no they can't as they are honestly devoted and committed to continue doing what they were doing uncovering rocks in the sandy desert.  So the park owner said that he would provide two years of funding for them to continue their research if they would go.  In a blink,  the two stars are on a little island being chased by a real T-Rex.

So much for honest devotion and commitment.

You do realise that it was a fictional story, not a documentary? Just thought I'd check.
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