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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 1380978 times)

Adam L

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3000 on: May 31, 2017, 08:31:15 am »

That's fantastic news Wolf, thanks for sharing.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3001 on: May 31, 2017, 08:31:20 am »

Earlier you said you only posted stories you knew were credible....

The story is her photo shoot with a severed head prop. That's the story. And that's 100 percent credible. My commentary is my opinion, not a story.

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3002 on: May 31, 2017, 08:34:46 am »

Slight dicrepancy how the US press and Whitehouse summed up G7. You'll have to feel sorry for Kevin Spicer, trying to put the lipstick on the pig.

In his G7 summarization, Kevin Spicer used six times "historic", five times "extraordinary" and three times "unique" adjectives.

In contrast, David Frum from Atlantic said that "Trump's Trip Was a Catastrophe for U.S.-Europe Relations" and USA Today reported that Allies distance themselves from U.S. after Trump's first foreign trip. NY Times writes that Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, Europe’s most influential leader, has concluded, after three days of trans-Atlantic meetings, that the United States of President Trump is not the reliable partner her country and the Continent have automatically depended on in the past.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3003 on: May 31, 2017, 08:37:30 am »

So, they are now going to partner with...?

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3004 on: May 31, 2017, 08:40:14 am »

USA will remain as a business partner for most European countries, but far more down on the ladder. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3005 on: May 31, 2017, 08:41:28 am »

So, they are now going to partner with...?

Mostly the 194 other countries in the world who signed the agreement, amongst others China.
American products will be taxed based on Carbon effects, if no alternatives become available.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:23:21 am by BartvanderWolf »
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3006 on: May 31, 2017, 08:55:10 am »

The story is her photo shoot with a severed head prop. That's the story. And that's 100 percent credible. My commentary is my opinion, not a story.
Pretty cheap cop out for an even cheaper comment.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3007 on: May 31, 2017, 09:24:01 am »

Not sure how Trump can pull us out of the Paris Accord

Article 28 paragraph 1 of that accord states that a state can withdraw from the accord after three years have passed since the state has ratified the accord.  The US ratified the accord on 3 Sep 2016.  The earliest we can submit withdraw notification would be 3 Sep 2019 and we would still be bound by the agreement until 3 Sep 2020 at the earliest.

Also, it is unclear whether a president can unilaterally withdraw from a treaty that has been ratified by the Senate. This has happened only once and the SCotUS refused to hear the challenge.  Withdrawing from this treaty may take a senate action.

Now, Trump could just decide to remain a ratified signatory of the accord and just ignore it.   

Which would not be that hard to do as the Paris Accord has very few measurable requirements on the signatories and no enforcement on those signatories that do not follow the accord... which may explain why so many countries were eager to sign this accord. It sounds good, but does not really accomplish much.

The Paris Accord is not a well written accord.

===edit===

Further research showed that this may not be as simple as I first thought

It all depends on the interpretation of "ratified" which, strangely, can be complicated.

The United States considers ratification as being from the legislative branch, specifically the Senate. Our constitution requires the Senate, and only the Senate, to ratify treaties.

The United States can enter into agreements without the mechanism of treaties. 

There are Executive agreements - made by the President
There are Congressional-Executive agreements -- made by the President and a simple majority of both the House and the Senate

The Paris Accord, evidently, falls into an Executive agreement as it has never been put to the Senate for ratification.  So it should be pretty clear whether the US has ratified the Paris Accord, right?

Well, no.

The United Nations, considers a treaty to be ratified if the specific country has a mechanism for ratifying treaties.  Some countries are prevented by their constitution to ratify constitutions so there are different terms used that represent essentially the same thing. 

In the case of the Paris Accord (never referred to as a Paris Treaty), it is an agreement based on another treaty.   The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) is a treaty that the United States signed and was ratified by the Senate.  The Paris Accord keys off of the terms of the UNFCCC.  This is why it is an accord and not a separate treaty.

However, the UN asked for and has received ratification from the nation members that have ratified the UNFCC.  So in some ways, the UN is treating the Paris Accords as a separate treaty-- which it kinds is and kinda ain't.

So now the complicated question is can Trump withdraw from the accord while not withdrawing from the UNFCCC?  That is not an easy question to answer.

But in any case, I wanted to amend my post to more accurately report that the Paris Accord is an Executive agreement and has not, under US law, been ratified by the Senate; but is considered ratified by international bodies.

Most complex and confusing.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 06:52:09 am by Otto Phocus »
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3008 on: May 31, 2017, 09:26:56 am »

Seen in Antwerp:
I don't think we need his help for that  ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3009 on: May 31, 2017, 09:48:37 am »

Not sure how Trump can pull us out of the Paris Accord

Article 28 paragraph 1 of that accord states that a state can withdraw from the accord after three years have passed since the state has ratified the accord.  The US ratified the accord on 3 Sep 2016.  The earliest we can submit withdraw notification would be 3 Sep 2019 and we would still be bound by the agreement until 3 Sep 2020 at the earliest.

From the Reuters article:
"The accord, agreed on by nearly 200 countries in Paris in 2015, aims to limit planetary warming in part by slashing carbon dioxide and other emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. Under the pact, the United States committed to reducing its emissions by 26 to 28 percent from 2005 levels by 2025.

One doesn't need to wait till 2025 to see if a signatory is on track to 26-28% below the 2005 levels or not.



Quote
Also, it is unclear whether a president can unilaterally withdraw from a treaty that has been ratified by the Senate. This has happened only once and the SCotUS refused to hear the challenge.  Withdrawing from this treaty may take a senate action.

"Axios said details of the pullout are being worked out by a team that includes EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt. The choice is between a formal withdrawal that could take three years or leaving the U.N. treaty that the accord is based on, which would be quicker but more extreme, according to Axios."

Nicaragua, Syria, USA. the world's only non-participants in the Paris Climate Agreement.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:37:13 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3010 on: May 31, 2017, 09:59:53 am »

Not sure how Trump can pull us out of the Paris Accord

Article 28 paragraph 1 of that accord states that a state can withdraw from the accord after three years have passed since the state has ratified the accord.  The US ratified the accord on 3 Sep 2016.  The earliest we can submit withdraw notification would be 3 Sep 2019 and we would still be bound by the agreement until 3 Sep 2020 at the earliest.

Also, it is unclear whether a president can unilaterally withdraw from a treaty that has been ratified by the Senate. This has happened only once and the SCotUS refused to hear the challenge.  Withdrawing from this treaty may take a senate action.

Now, Trump could just decide to remain a ratified signatory of the accord and just ignore it.   

Which would not be that hard to do as the Paris Accord has very few measurable requirements on the signatories and no enforcement on those signatories that do not follow the accord... which may explain why so many countries were eager to sign this accord. It sounds good, but does not really accomplish much.

The Paris Accord is not a well written accord.
Most other countries will not follow the accord including European nations.  Why would you expect them to pay climate change taxes when they aren't paying taxes for defense as agreed to in NATO against Russia and other threats? 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3011 on: May 31, 2017, 10:15:19 am »

Most other countries will not follow the accord including European nations.  Why would you expect them to pay climate change taxes when they aren't paying taxes for defense as agreed to in NATO against Russia and other threats?

Citizens do not pay defense tax. Defense is paid for by allocating a part of the country's budget.
Products and services that are imported, can be taxed in several different ways, usually by an import duty.

To reach the Paris climate goals, activities are already being implemented. Fossil fueled power generation is gradually being replaced by renewable and cleaner or clean alternatives. Huge solar and wind farms are being built, and they're just reaching cost levels that do not require subsidies to be economically viable.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3012 on: May 31, 2017, 10:53:05 am »

Citizens do not pay defense tax. Defense is paid for by allocating a part of the country's budget.
Products and services that are imported, can be taxed in several different ways, usually by an import duty.

To reach the Paris climate goals, activities are already being implemented. Fossil fueled power generation is gradually being replaced by renewable and cleaner or clean alternatives. Huge solar and wind farms are being built, and they're just reaching cost levels that do not require subsidies to be economically viable.

Cheers,
Bart
A country's budget is paid for in taxes.  All money is fungible.  So it's the individual citizen of your country that pays for it eventually.  Import duties can go to the people for health care or to buy tanks instead.  Which do you think your countrymen will vote for? 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3013 on: May 31, 2017, 10:57:16 am »

In the era of ISIS beheading, this is what liberals think is ok:

Far more insulting than Griffin's image is Slobodan's suggestion that "liberals" (his term) approve of it.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3014 on: May 31, 2017, 10:59:58 am »

Far more insulting than Griffin's image is Slobodan's suggestion that "liberals" (his term) approve of it.

Yeah, right. Let's change the subject and talk about... me.

Adam L

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3015 on: May 31, 2017, 11:08:04 am »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3016 on: May 31, 2017, 11:08:36 am »

Liberals are apparently very fond of decapitation (in case someone thinks the last example is an exception):



« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:12:14 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3017 on: May 31, 2017, 11:09:18 am »

Yeah, right. Let's change the subject and talk about... me.
Don't kid yourself, nobody is interested talking about you. They only talk about some of the nonsense you post here  :P 
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3018 on: May 31, 2017, 11:15:06 am »

Liberals are apparently very fond of decapitation (in case someone thinks the last example is an exception):
Care to share some pictures of KKK beheadings?  They might be more interesting then comic book pictures  ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3019 on: May 31, 2017, 11:15:09 am »

Don't kid yourself, nobody is interested talking about you. They only talk about some of the nonsense you post here  :P 

I am glad that my little contribution to all the other nonsense in this thread is noticed.
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