Hasselblad 3FR vs FFF

[BobShaw]

Hi,
Can anyone give me a technical explanation of what happens in Phocus when you convert a 3FR file out of camera into an FFF file using Phocus Import, please?

Things i have observed:
The file changes from about 110MB to about 70MB.
Adjustments are recorded in the FFF file and you can revert back to previous adjustment states. Very useful.
Custom calibrations are carried in the file and you can use them on a different computer. Again very useful if shooting tethered on a laptop.
The FFF appears to be standard on every Hasselblad. It certainly works in Apple Aperture where new cameras usually don't.

Thanks in anticipation.
bob

[TechTalk]

Hi,
Can anyone give me a technical explanation of what happens in Phocus when you convert a 3FR file out of camera into an FFF file using Phocus Import, please?

Things i have observed:
The file changes from about 110MB to about 70MB.
Adjustments are recorded in the FFF file and you can revert back to previous adjustment states. Very useful.
Custom calibrations are carried in the file and you can use them on a different computer. Again very useful if shooting tethered on a laptop.
The FFF appears to be standard on every Hasselblad. It certainly works in Apple Aperture where new cameras usually don't.

Thanks in anticipation.
bob

A .3FR file is a lossless compressed raw file. It is what is written and saved when shooting to a memory card in camera.

.FFF is the full uncompressed file that is written and saved when shooting tethered. It is also what the file type is when you import a compressed 3FR into Phocus. Phocus simply creates a decompressed copy of the original 3FR.

The .FFF file contains the full history of every saved or exported version of the image. As the history is saved inside the image file itself and not in a separate file, the history always follows the file or any copies. The history file shows the exact settings for each of the adjustments made for every saved/exported version of the file and is editable. Very useful indeed!

[BobShaw]

A .3FR file is a lossless compressed raw file. It is what is written and saved when shooting to a memory card in camera.

.FFF is the full uncompressed file that is written and saved when shooting tethered. It is also what the file type is when you import a compressed 3FR into Phocus. Phocus simply creates a decompressed copy of the original 3FR.

The .FFF file contains the full history of every saved or exported version of the image. As the history is saved inside the image file itself and not in a separate file, the history always follows the file or any copies. The history file shows the exact settings for each of the adjustments made for every saved/exported version of the file and is editable. Very useful indeed!

Yes, but why is the compressed 3FR file 110MB and the uncompressed FFF file 70MB.

[hubell]

A .3FR file is a lossless compressed raw file. It is what is written and saved when shooting to a memory card in camera.

.FFF is the full uncompressed file that is written and saved when shooting tethered. It is also what the file type is when you import a compressed 3FR into Phocus. Phocus simply creates a decompressed copy of the original 3FR.

The .FFF file contains the full history of every saved or exported version of the image. As the history is saved inside the image file itself and not in a separate file, the history always follows the file or any copies. The history file shows the exact settings for each of the adjustments made for every saved/exported version of the file and is editable. Very useful indeed!

So, if I send someone a .fff file that I have edited in LR that I think is just a "pure" and unedited raw file, when they open it in LR or ACR, it will show the file with the edits previously made?
Thanks.

[pschefz]

So, if I send someone a .fff file that I have edited in LR that I think is just a "pure" and unedited raw file, when they open it in LR or ACR, it will show the file with the edits previously made?
Thanks.

I think this only applies to files edited in Phocus, not LR...
This is probably the biggest issue i have with Phocus mobile for the ipad, great app, awesome tethering, but no way to export .fff files, no way to “attach” settings made to the raw file....only options are jpeg or 3FR...makes no sense at all...

[BobShaw]

I think this only applies to files edited in Phocus, not LR...
This is probably the biggest issue i have with Phocus mobile for the ipad, great app, awesome tethering, but no way to export .fff files, no way to “attach” settings made to the raw file....only options are jpeg or 3FR...makes no sense at all...

Phocus mobile is only intended for previewing and rating. You need real grunt to process these files.

[pschefz]

Phocus mobile is only intended for previewing and rating. You need real grunt to process these files.

Phocus mobile on the ipad is faster, tethering is crazy fast, the ipad is plenty fast enough to process raw files....LR mobile is plenty fast enough....i even edit 4K video on it....

[BobShaw]

Back to the question,
Why is the compressed 3FR file 110MB and the uncompressed FFF file 70MB.

[pflower]

Back to the question,
Why is the compressed 3FR file 110MB and the uncompressed FFF file 70MB.

A long time ago, when the H6 was first introduced, I noticed the discrepancy with that camera.  The Hasselblad rep told me that the reason for the disparity between the size of the files was that the compression on the 3FR files had not been implemented but would come at a later date.  Well at least 2 years later it still hasn't been implemented on the X1D (I never bought the H6 so don't know about that).  I have no idea why the (non)-compressed 3FR files are bigger than the theoretically uncompressed 3fffs or what is being thrown away when they are converted to 3fff.  On my H3D the 3fff files are about 20% to 25% bigger than the 3FR files. Just one of life's mysteries to marvel at, I suppose.

[KLaban]

I've never understood this or had a satisfactory explanation.

[TechTalk]

So, here's a case of getting my foot in my mouth by posting a reply too quickly, based on memory, and not checking to see if anything had changed. Sorry about that. I frankly have never really paid much attention to raw file sizes as it's not something for which there is any option or control. Not an excuse for posting misinformation, however. So, I apologize for that.

Historically, previous generation Hasselblad products did produce compressed 3FR files. Current generation products do not compress 3FR files. As for why that is the case with current products, you would need to contact Hasselblad for an explanation.

Phocus on the other hand, does automatically apply lossless compression to .FFF files when shooting tethered or when importing 3FR files to be converted to FFF files. The overwhelming majority of my own shooting is tethered in a studio with a fair amount of multi-shot use. Until Phocus version 2.7, multi-shot files were not compressed. Since that version, all the FFF files are compressed including multi-shot. On the rare occasion that I have shot untethered to a card, I have deleted the 3FR files after backing up the FFF converted files and checking to make sure that no errors occurred in importing.

[TechTalk]

So, if I send someone a .fff file that I have edited in LR that I think is just a "pure" and unedited raw file, when they open it in LR or ACR, it will show the file with the edits previously made?
Thanks.

I should have been more specific in stating that I was referring to how Hasselblad handles adjustment history of Hasselblad image files in their own Phocus software. I've never used anything except Phocus, or the previous FlexColor software which has a similar history function, for processing Hasselblad raw files. So, how third party software, like Adobe, handles any adjustment history, would be up to the maker of the software and I couldn't offer you an answer to that.

As for Phocus, the answer would be yes. If you send a .fff file to someone to open in Phocus, the image file will open by default with either the last edit version saved or the set of image adjustments, if any, that you have selected from the history saved in the Phocus Adjustments Browser to be the default adjustment settings applied when an image is opened. By selecting your preferred default setting in the Phocus Adjustment Browser, you control how your image looks when opened by someone else using Phocus on their computer.

The Adjustments Browser, in addition to showing the full history of saved adjustments to an image, offers several options and functions among them: importing, exporting, transferring, and saving custom sets of user adjustments; choosing the default set of image adjustments applied when an image file is opened whether an edit, as shot, or a factory default; adding or deleting adjustment settings which are embedded in an image file; display of a list of before and after adjustment changes for each adjustment made in a saved edit or export; and more. If an image file is copied, all of those things are copied along with the image in the duplicate. It's a feature of Phocus that I have found quite useful.

A fuller explanation can be found on pages 71 thru 77 of the Phocus user manual here. This is the most recent version for which I could find a direct link, but a newer version of the manual can be downloaded from the Hasselblad support section of their website.  http://cdn.hasselblad.com/phocus/Phocus_UserManual_EN.pdf

[BobShaw]

Historically, previous generation Hasselblad products did produce compressed 3FR files. Current generation products do not compress 3FR files. As for why that is the case with current products, you would need to contact Hasselblad for an explanation.

Thanks. That solves the mystery.
I just checked my H3DII-39 files from years ago and the 3FR was 42.1MB and the FFF was 59.2MB, so compression was in play.
(I need to go back and delete the 3FR, no point keeping both)

The other great thing about the Hasselblad raw files is that if you do a custom calibration in Reproduction mode then that calibration is carried to another computer that it wasn't calibrated on.

I guess I will raise it with Mr Hasselblad now about why no compression. Possibly processor load?

[TechTalk]

This is probably the biggest issue i have with Phocus mobile for the ipad, great app, awesome tethering, but no way to export .fff files, no way to “attach” settings made to the raw file....only options are jpeg or 3FR...makes no sense at all...

Phocus Mobile 2 was updated today to version 1.1 which now adds embedding in 3FR files of image adjustments made in Phocus Mobile 2 that can be used by Phocus Mac/Windows (requires V 3.5.2 or later).

Also, live view has been added.

Version 1.1 - Aug 12, 2020

- adds new capture session interface with camera controls and live view
- the white balance tool now has presets and a picker
- the possibility of copying adjustments between images has been added
- shared 3FR files have embedded adjustment info that can be used by Phocus Mac/Windows (requires V 3.5.2 or later)

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/phocus-mobile-2/

[BobShaw]

Phocus Mobile 2 was updated today to version 1.1 which now adds embedding in 3FR files of image adjustments made in Phocus Mobile 2 that can be used by Phocus Mac/Windows (requires V 3.5.2 or later).

All good improvements but we now have three Phocus Mobile apps supporting two different devices on two different cameras.
Wouldn't it be great to just have one Mobile app supporting everything?
We have just one Phocus app running dozens of cameras.
Honestly though if you are going to use the image adjustments made on your iPad and then transfer them to Phocus on the Mac then why just just tether straight to the Mac and save a lot of time?
Also you don't have to worry about space wasting 3FR files at all.
A MacBook is so much more versatile to me and you can still remote it to an iPad for viewing and rating by the customer.

[TechTalk]

All good improvements but we now have three Phocus Mobile apps support two different devices on two different cameras.
Wouldn't it be great to just have one Mobile app supporting everything?
Honestly though if you are going to use the image adjustments made on your iPad and then transfer them to Phocus on the Mac then why just just tether straight to the Mac and save a lot of time?
Also you don't have to worry about space wasting 3FR files at all.
A MacBook is so much more versatile to me and you can still remote it to an iPad for viewing and rating by the customer.

I wasn't aware until I looked at your comment that Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone was released yesterday (with a bug fix version 1.0.1 update today). So yes, now there are three versions of Phocus Mobile. Hasselblad's website page for Phocus Mobile 2 still says "Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone is planned for a future release" and even today's press release for the 907X 50C Chrome says that "a brand new Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone to be released soon". Looks like the mobile app developers are one step ahead of the website and press release folks! Thank you for bringing me up-to-date Bob!

I have no idea what the issues are in connecting an external device like a Hasselblad to various generations of Apple mobile products and iOS that have caused the developers to create three different mobile apps.

There is Phocus Mobile for iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch that works with Wi-Fi equipped Hasselblad models introduced prior to 2019 (no X1D II or 907X/CFV II 50C compatibility). Phocus Mobile offers camera control, image preview/rating, and live video.

Then there is Phocus Mobile 2 for iPad Pro (2nd Generation or later with minimum of 3GB RAM) and iPad Air (2019 Air models) and the X1D II 50C and CFV II 50C connected via either USB or Wi-Fi. It was updated today with new features that I mentioned earlier. This is currently the only mobile version with image editing capability.

And now a new Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone, iPad (except models above), and iPod Touch models running iOS 12.0 or later and the X1D II 50C and CFV II 50C.

Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone offers:

- Wired and wireless connectivity with X1D II 50C and CFV II 50C Special Edition
- Remote camera control and Live view.
- Image browsing of files on SD Card with metadata and detail view
- Import and share of RAW and full-quality JPEG files
- Rating and color flag labeling with filter and sort views
- Firmware updates to cameras and XCD lenses via app

* 100% magnification requires min. 3GB RAM (iPhone 7 Plus,iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X models or later)

* Hasselblad website is now updated to include Phocus Mobile 2 for iPhone. A press release was also added today.

https://www.hasselblad.com/press/press-releases/phocus-mobile-2-expands-workflow-portability-with-iphone-connectivity/