Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: LKaven on September 28, 2014, 11:51:02 am
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This is an interview with Samsung on the technical innovations in the NX1. We thought this was an amazing camera, but the more you read about it, the more amazing it is. It might be the most advanced camera being sold today in every respect.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/09/27/photokina-interview-samsung-nx1-redefine-pro-performance-quantum-leap-tech
* 240 fps image tracking and recognition right off the sensor, every pixel. Between the sensor and the DSP, it /could/ do 240 fps at 28MP, and has done that on a test bench.
* "Our fill efficiency is much higher than most of the industry, thanks in large part to moving to 65nm design rules for our latest sensor"
* "when we switch to copper [replacing polysilicon for the wiring on the chip], we've moved to a much more conductive material, which helps us in heat dissipation, it helps us in reducing resistance"
* "even though we're BSI, we're cutting the pixel depth even more that way, which gives us more sensitivity and efficiency. So you'll find when you actually get these to test that the high ISO noise on these is much lower than it should be, if you follow the curve down in terms of pixel pitch, because of BSI, because of copper, because of the more efficient microlenses we've put on. The microlenses on these appear to cover almost 100%."
* "it's my understanding that we have the tightest design rules of any sensor manufacturing process used for cameras by a factor of two, and by general average probably close to a factor of four or five."
* "The biggest change is the structure of the Image Signal Processor. The DRIMe V ISP is very different. Most ISPs have key parts of the processing hardwired to get the needed speed. What's really new with the DRIMe V is that the "hardwiring" can be reconfigured."
* Tracking: "speed can be anywhere from around 80km/h to around 160km/h [50 mph to 100 mph]." It's able to use the entire sensor frame for tracking at 240 fps.
* "The DRIMe V actually has a lot of IPs [small hardware circuit blocks] dedicated to noise reduction. It's pretty cool; there are a lot of them, and each one does a different type of noise reduction processing, all at the same time. " The executive can decide a posteriori how much of this processing to utilize.
* "five general purpose cores"
* "the display refreshes at about 54 fps, but the key thing is that the EVF and the sensor are sychronized. The two are genlocked, so there's always just a 5 ms lag between what's hitting the sensor and what's being displayed on the EVF's current scan line. I think we're the only ones who can do this."
* "It's 4:2:2 out the HDMI 1.4 port; it's 4:2:0 as it goes to the SD. And it's H.265 to the card for both HD and 4K, so whatever video mode you're saving to SD card, it's using H.265, so you're going to get much more efficient and better-quality HD out of it."
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* "the display refreshes at about 54 fps, but the key thing is that the EVF and the sensor are sychronized. The two are genlocked, so there's always just a 5 ms lag between what's hitting the sensor and what's being displayed on the EVF's current scan line. I think we're the only ones who can do this."
From that, the biggest weakness of EVFs will soon disappear; lag will soon be negligible. EVF resolution can already match and exceed that of the secondary image of the frosted glass/plastic focusing screen of an SLR, zoomed preview makes that advantage even greater, DOF preview is more accurate, etc., so the main issue I see remaining is how best to display scenes of high subject brightness range on an EVF. This I think is mostly an issue of improving software and processing speed; dynamic adjustment of display contrast and brightness to fit scene SBR into the display's gamut.
Maybe the biggest and most profitable "camera makers", Samsung and Apple, will soon give the best quality image preview while composing!
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Thanks for the link! Interesting!
Best regards
Erik
This is an interview with Samsung on the technical innovations in the NX1. We thought this was an amazing camera, but the more you read about it, the more amazing it is. It might be the most advanced camera being sold today in every respect.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/09/27/photokina-interview-samsung-nx1-redefine-pro-performance-quantum-leap-tech
* 240 fps image tracking and recognition right off the sensor, every pixel. Between the sensor and the DSP, it /could/ do 240 fps at 28MP, and has done that on a test bench.
* "Our fill efficiency is much higher than most of the industry, thanks in large part to moving to 65nm design rules for our latest sensor"
* "when we switch to copper [replacing polysilicon for the wiring on the chip], we've moved to a much more conductive material, which helps us in heat dissipation, it helps us in reducing resistance"
* "even though we're BSI, we're cutting the pixel depth even more that way, which gives us more sensitivity and efficiency. So you'll find when you actually get these to test that the high ISO noise on these is much lower than it should be, if you follow the curve down in terms of pixel pitch, because of BSI, because of copper, because of the more efficient microlenses we've put on. The microlenses on these appear to cover almost 100%."
* "it's my understanding that we have the tightest design rules of any sensor manufacturing process used for cameras by a factor of two, and by general average probably close to a factor of four or five."
* "The biggest change is the structure of the Image Signal Processor. The DRIMe V ISP is very different. Most ISPs have key parts of the processing hardwired to get the needed speed. What's really new with the DRIMe V is that the "hardwiring" can be reconfigured."
* Tracking: "speed can be anywhere from around 80km/h to around 160km/h [50 mph to 100 mph]." It's able to use the entire sensor frame for tracking at 240 fps.
* "The DRIMe V actually has a lot of IPs [small hardware circuit blocks] dedicated to noise reduction. It's pretty cool; there are a lot of them, and each one does a different type of noise reduction processing, all at the same time. " The executive can decide a posteriori how much of this processing to utilize.
* "five general purpose cores"
* "the display refreshes at about 54 fps, but the key thing is that the EVF and the sensor are sychronized. The two are genlocked, so there's always just a 5 ms lag between what's hitting the sensor and what's being displayed on the EVF's current scan line. I think we're the only ones who can do this."
* "It's 4:2:2 out the HDMI 1.4 port; it's 4:2:0 as it goes to the SD. And it's H.265 to the card for both HD and 4K, so whatever video mode you're saving to SD card, it's using H.265, so you're going to get much more efficient and better-quality HD out of it."
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Wow. Very interesting thanks for the info.
I think people have underestimated Samsung and what is possible with modern fabrication tech.
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No one would underestimate the EE prowess of any of those big Asian Houses. They are all quite capable. Heck, go to the Engineering Department of any US or European company and you will see that the Engineers there are the same. Asia owns hi-tech production. I'm not at all surprised that the processing side of this camera is crazy good.
But a camera system is much more than a sensor and processor. Plus there is a need to build a reputation. That is a long way off. Spec sheet drooling aside...
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An acquaintance of mine owns one of the Samsung NX cameras with 16, 30 & 60mm lenses. Image quality, judging by the electronic & print examples I've seen, looks very good. As good as any APS-C or 35mm system I'm familiar with. The NX1 will surely be no worse and could well be better. General handling and menu layout are what I'm interested in. Do the designers truly get Auto ISO? (Sony, for one, doesn't.) If Samsung can deliver a camera that works like it was made with photographers rather than engineers in mind, I'll give it a close look. The specs are mighty impressive for sure.
-Dave-
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What's pretty clear is that Samsung is progressing a lot faster than Canon and Nikon.
Actual usage will tell us whether the NX1 is at the right level from a usability standpoint and as a system relative to realistic usage needs, but it already seems ahead in core technologies... by a big margin.
The general market, especially in fast developing countries, has less photographers with a strong emotional relationship with established brands and the NX1 will, IMHO, make significant inroads.
That will be more than enough to generate a healthy profit and ensure that Samsung can continue to invest big time on the NX1 II.
By that time it will probably be too late unless Canon and Nikon move quickly.
The only thing that would IMHO really make sense would be for Canon and Nikon to adopt the Sony E mount for APS mirrorless bodies. Or at least to come up with a new common lens mount. That would pretty much kill Samsung.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Fascinating.
The biggest issues are going to be 1) durability, 2) flexibility, and 3) lens compatibility while retaining full functionality.
It is one thing to develop a sensor, which shouldn't be too hard for a major electrical company to do.
It is quite another to develop an entire system of lenses to place overtop of that sensor, which is an area they have zero real experience in: lens production.
It is also one thing to develop "standard" lenses, and quite another to develop highly-specialized lenses.
Nobody really serious seems to like to use adapters for highly-specialized lenses; while some do, most photoprahers go with the system that actually has their needed lenses (so they don't have to fiddle with an adapter and lose lens functionality by doing so).
It might be a wiser choice for Samsung to sell their electronics breakthru to the highest bidding camera company ... who already has lenses.
Jack
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I also don't think it is a matter of either Canon or Nikon "sitting on their asses."
I think it is a matter of TALENT and ODDS.
No one company can hire all the talent. The world is full of talented people, and the odds are the biggest companies are going to hire the best talent.
Giant companies, like Sony and Samsung, specialize in electronics and are going to have some supremely talented people ... who make their own electronic innovations. The law of large numbers is going to show its head here. As phones become more and more "photography-capable," the electronics engineers are going to be developing similar technologies along side "established" camera engineers, and in so doing come out with their own breakthroughs.
But, here again, coming out with an awesome electronics engineering breakthrough still doesn't complete the system. They may have pioneered a breakthrough, but there is still a lot more to be done before they have anything close to a complete arsenal of camera solutions for folks. It's a reason to be excited, for sure, but no reason to switch at this point.
Another reason to be excited is that these breakthroughs might be just what is needed to steer the existing companies in the right direction to jumpstart their own innovations.
I view this as good for everyone, bad for no one.
Jack
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[...] It might be a wiser choice for Samsung to sell their electronics breakthru to the highest bidding camera company ... who already has lenses.
Samsung is surely big enough to license all of the manufacturing they want from a major optical house. If Sony can go to Zeiss, Samsung can go to Schneider, or who knows, maybe even Samyang.
But in the meantime, remember that they introduced two pro-spec zooms along with this camera. The 16-50 f/2-2.8 (yes, f/2 to f/2.8) and a 50-150 constant f/2.8, both extensively weather-sealed. It will be interesting to see how these perform.
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It might be a wiser choice for Samsung to sell their electronics breakthru to the highest bidding camera company ... who already has lenses.
Jack
Or just to buy or team up with one. Sigma anybody?
Edmund
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Interesting both, but Sigma especially.
I think one of the things that hurt Sony camera sales, actually, was teaming up an uber-expensive, high-priced, exclusive lens manufacturer in Zeiss. Sony's advantage of competing at a good price was hindered, not helped, by the Zeiss union IMO. The union created a bitter-sweet fact of lower-price-for-body / high-price-for-lens scenario.
Samsung would essentially be doing the same thing by teaming up with Schneider, plus the fact its entire advantage of rapid-fire AF capabilities would be rendered nil by teaming with a lens company specializing in manual focus optics.
However, by teaming up with Sigma, Samsung would create a far more appealing general lens availability scenario for itself, lenses replete with autofocus capability (which Zeiss lacks), and would be in a far better position for mass-marketability to consumers, at a low price, and therefore greater overall consumer appeal.
Very interesting idea indeed.
Jack
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Or just to buy or team up with one. Sigma anybody?
Hum... how many recent examples do we have of Korean and Japanese companies working together?
Cheers,
Bernard
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They wouldn't do badly with Sigma at all. I also think that Samyang is one small step from being at that level, a step that they could take easily if they partnered with Samsung.
Actually, I wonder who /is/ making their existing lenses, especially these two new ones.
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Don't forget that Samsung was mashed up with Pentax for awhile. Maybe some lens know-how (and designer talent too) migrated from the latter to the former. Even if not, Samsung is a huge company that can afford to hire top quality people and equip 'em with the best tools of the trade.
I don't see 'em hooking up with another established player, except maybe for marketing reasons. I think they'll mostly cut their own trail.
-Dave-
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No one knows of Sigma, let's face it, except us nerds. Sony made a smart move teaming with the well-known Germans. Sony and Samsung need cache, and YimYang Optics or Mongolian Lens or Gulag Glass isn't going to do it.
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YimYang Optics or Mongolian Lens or Gulag Glass isn't going to do it.
Where did these names come from? I'm sure they could make top-quality lenses in Korea. This is only the fastest growing high-tech economy in the world. Then they could call them whatever they want. But it's worth remembering that Samyang sells lenses by the shipload to enthusiastic buyers, and mostly lenses released in the last 2-3 years.
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... But in the meantime, remember that they introduced two pro-spec zooms along with this camera. The 16-50 f/2-2.8 (yes, f/2 to f/2.8) and a 50-150 constant f/2.8, both extensively weather-sealed. It will be interesting to see how these perform.
Has anyone else noticed (or cares) how beautifully designed those lenses are? And I mean on the outside, not optical design. Simplicity and elegance approached only by the Sigma's Art series. I know it is highly personal, but still.
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Has anyone else noticed (or cares) how beautifully designed those lenses are? And I mean on the outside, not optical design. Simplicity and elegance approached only by the Sigma's Art series. I know it is highly personal, but still.
Agreed, they look great!
Overall I find that many recent lenses to look good in fact, with the notable exception of my Zeiss Otus 55mm that I frankly find pretty ugly! ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Has anyone else noticed (or cares) how beautifully designed those lenses are? And I mean on the outside, not optical design. Simplicity and elegance approached only by the Sigma's Art series. I know it is highly personal, but still.
They do look nice (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/samsung-nx1/images/camera-with-s-lenses.jpg), wow.
Wonder who makes them? They are big enough I suppose to make their own.
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Samsung is surely big enough to license all of the manufacturing they want from a major optical house. If Sony can go to Zeiss, Samsung can go to Schneider, or who knows, maybe even Samyang.
But in the meantime, remember that they introduced two pro-spec zooms along with this camera. The 16-50 f/2-2.8 (yes, f/2 to f/2.8) and a 50-150 constant f/2.8, both extensively weather-sealed. It will be interesting to see how these perform.
Samsung must have owned or had the license from Schneider at some point. The lens on my crappy film Samsung P&S was badged Schneider, and so were the rebadged Pentax SLR lenses from a few years ago and that's been several decades of Schneider connection.
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Hi,
I would say that was a very bad case of rebadging, guess that Schneider lost some credibility, not that Pentax lenses are bad.
Best regards
Erik
Samsung must have owned or had the license from Schneider at some point. The lens on my crappy film Samsung P&S was badged Schneider, and so were the rebadged Pentax SLR lenses from a few years ago and that's been several decades of Schneider connection.
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Fascinating.
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It is quite another to develop an entire system of lenses to place overtop of that sensor, which is an area they have zero real experience in: lens production.
...
Jack
A few years ago I owned a Samsung NX20-based system for a year or so, having tired of my 'heavy', largish Canon 5D-based system that included all-L-series lenses. I was VERY satisfied with the three Samsung lenses I bought, including a telezoom, a 60mm macro lens, and a short-to-mid-zoom I remember little about...except that I was very pleased with the results thru ALL THREE lenses. The camera turned out to be too small for my mediumish hands, and I replaced it with a Canon 6D-based system and some of the same lenses I had sold maybe 1-1/2 years earlier. I'm pleased to see that the new NX1 is somewhat larger than the NX20 (and somewhat smaller and lighter than my current Sony a99).
My a99-based system includes two excellent Sony/Zeiss zooms, the 16-35 and 24-70 (both 2.8s), and a Sony telezoom. I'm quite satisfied with all of this, but if Sony doesn't introduce a hirez replacement for the a99 in the 1st half of next year, I'll be very tempted to evaluate an NX1 system, and I expect I'll be just as happy with the optical results of the new Samsung lenses and body as I was with the NX20 system.
Time will tell, but one thing I know now--at US$1500 RR for the body, it's NOT expensive. :)
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The Samsung 16-50 2/2.8 has been out for a number of months. I've been using it on an NX30 for quite awhile and I'm happy with its performance. The Samsung 30 f/2 pancake, 60 Macro, and 85 1.4 are also excellent performers. The NX30 body produces excellent images at lower ISOs but it isn't great at anything above 800 or so. I'm looking forward to trying these lenses on the NX1 which should considerably better high ISO performance. I hope it lives up to the hype and the specs.
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I was VERY satisfied with the three Samsung lenses I bought ...
AFAIK, the Samsung DSLR lenses were rebadged Pentax lenses, or Tamron lenses rebadged by both Pentax and Sony.
So perhaps the real point is that Samsung can outsource some quite good lenses, at least for the lens types that sell in large enough numbers that third party makers like Sigma and Tamron offer them. The distinction of a high-end professional system might be more about how good an array of specialized, expensive high end lenses it can offer.
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So perhaps the real point is that Samsung can outsource some quite good lenses, at least for the lens types that sell in large enough numbers that third party makers like Sigma and Tamron offer them. The distinction of a high-end professional system might be more about how good an array of specialized, expensive high end lenses it can offer.
If I were Samsung I wouldn't waste my time & energy now on tilt/shifts, big telephotos & the like. They're not gonna attract the pros & dentists, if ever, until they establish a solid, high-quality lineup that appeals to such folks as a secondary system. Over-deliver on that front and get your foot in the door.
-Dave-
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I see those huge collections of lenses (e.g., Canon, Nikon) as somewhat similar to cable TV offerings: they tend to outdo the competition with "we have 200 channels," "yes, but we have 400 channels." etc. In reality, I spend one or two hours in the evening watching cable, and that means only a few channels at most. And 80-90% of time it is the same few channels.
The same goes with lenses. Yes, it if fantastic to have such a vast choice of lenses, but ultimately, in reality, you only have or need a few. Those two or three high-quality lenses Samsung is offering now cover 24-230 range, where 80% of our photography happens. Unless you are in the niche market for super macro or super telephoto, of course.
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I see those huge collections of lenses (e.g., Canon, Nikon) as somewhat similar to cable TV offerings: they tend to outdo the competition with "we have 200 channels," "yes, but we have 400 channels." etc. In reality, I spend one or two hours in the evening watching cable, and that means only a few channels at most. And 80-90% of time it is the same few channels.
The same goes with lenses. Yes, it if fantastic to have such a vast choice of lenses, but ultimately, in reality, you only have or need a few. Those two or three high-quality lenses Samsung is offering now cover 24-230 range, where 80% of our photography happens. Unless you are in the niche market for super macro or super telephoto, of course.
Not me, I'm an Artist…
I only leave home with 15mm and 300mm lenses. Guess the Samsung won't cut it with me and my Dentist friends
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Not me, I'm an Artist…
I only leave home with 15mm and 300mm lenses. Guess the Samsung won't cut it with me and my Dentist friends
Then you are in luck... even your dentist friends will be mightily impressed: ;)
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Then you are in luck... even you dentist friends will be mightily impressed: ;)
Well, if that 10 is 15 then the 300 is also 450 so no 300 for the dentists
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I see those huge collections of lenses (e.g., Canon, Nikon) as somewhat similar to cable TV offerings: they tend to outdo the competition with "we have 200 channels," "yes, but we have 400 channels." etc. In reality, I spend one or two hours in the evening watching cable, and that means only a few channels at most. And 80-90% of time it is the same few channels.
The same goes with lenses. Yes, it if fantastic to have such a vast choice of lenses, but ultimately, in reality, you only have or need a few. Those two or three high-quality lenses Samsung is offering now cover 24-230 range, where 80% of our photography happens. Unless you are in the niche market for super macro or super telephoto, of course.
That's true (and isn't there always a but ;D) :
While I mainly use three lenses out of the five I have, they are quite likely a different three or four that you use; and the next guy may well use a different three or four.
It's possible, but I'd be surprised if Canon/Nikon just came up with different f/stops, FLs, etc just to expand their range of lenses for bragging rights. I would have thought that the selection was based on probable demand.
My comment on a single zoom covering a range that wide: I've always read that a zoom lens that covers a range ratio of more than four or five is not usually a great lens (24-230 is a ratio of 9.6:1 - a bit of a stretch).
Cheers,
Glenn
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... My comment on a single zoom covering a range that wide: I've always read that a zoom lens that covers a range ratio of more than four or five is not usually a great lens (24-230 is a ratio of 9.6:1 - a bit of a stretch)...
Correct. However, I said "two or three lenses" cover that range. The two are: 16-50/2-2.8 and 50-150/2.8, and he third is a inside that range (85/1.4).
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Then you are in luck... even you dentist friends will be mightily impressed: ;)
Great…!!!
The logo on my refrigerator will now match my camera…
Those fools at Canon don't know how to make a good refrigerator …
How… liberating…. Now the 300 becomes a 450 but no problem… I'll just take a couple steps back…
Dr. Panji will want to borrow my camera… not a chance… Oh, Happy Day…
Slobo… you're just a miracle man….
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Correct. However, I said "two or three lenses" cover that range. The two are: 16-50/2-2.8 and 50-150/2.8, and he third is a inside that range (85/1.4).
Quite correct, I misread your intention. Sorry about that.
Now remove my last paragraph; and comment about the number of lenses offered by Canon/Nikon.
Cheers,
G
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It's possible, but I'd be surprised if Canon/Nikon just came up with different f/stops, FLs, etc just to expand their range of lenses for bragging rights. I would have thought that the selection was based on probable demand.
Nikon certainly leapt out of the gate with an extensive lens lineup for the original F camera. But most of the high-speed stuff came later, no doubt due to user requests. OTOH they did make some exotics like the massive ~1000mm reflexes and crazy wide fisheyes…I have to think some of those were results of "look what we can do!" rather than responses to user needs or wants. There was some one-upping going on with Canon too, which went back to the 1950s and the "Who can make the fastest 50mm lens?" contest. (Michael owns, or at least has recently used, a copy of the winner: Canon's 50/0.95 for their rangefinder system.)
More recently it seems to me Olympus made the mistake of producing a line of big, fast, lovely lenses for their Four-Thirds SLRs that not many owners of those cameras were interested in. I hope Samsung made note of this.
-Dave-
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The spec list is seriously impressive and if it lives up to it might just be the shakeup the dslr manufs need.
My main worry is that my samsung phone has three screens of crapware I cannot install without rooting it and my TV has a ridiculous UI where noises each time I press a button cannot be turned off so my main fear is this camera may be a technical marvel but unusable.
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A few years ago when m-4/3s systems hit the market, one of the criticisms against them was the poor choice of lenses. You don't hear that any longer.
If Samsung is serious about their camera line, and so far they seem to be, they'll end up building the lenses that people want to buy.
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Nikon certainly leapt out of the gate with an extensive lens lineup for the original F camera.
Nikon started as an optical company and made it's international reputation beginning with a line of LTM lenses that were praised by photojournalists shooting with Leicas at the time. They had a proud engineering culture, and you can see that from their "thousand and one nights" feature page.
This also made them a little quirky. They were into discovering things. The 75-150/3.5E is an amazing lens with a beautiful look that exploited an inherent sweet spot in the optical design space. They loved this kind of stuff.
And the F was a lovingly conceived marvel of both design and engineering. To this day, it's still the camera that my fingers want most.
It's hard to get that kind of mojo in the era of computer-aided design.