Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: julienlanoo on January 30, 2013, 07:53:27 am
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So,
just in search if any one would know some thing is coming..
Because, today, working in studio, and after a Upgrade of the firware of my 645 DM, it has again developed new quarks,
Not turning out a reliable body this 645 from mamiya, after 2 years of using it heavely i've never been realy happy with the body,
i am happy to revert back to my arca if i want reliability ..
Don't get me wrong the shneider lensens for the DM body are great!!!, the phase one back is wonderfull, only the bit inbetween the 645 thing from mamiya is not up to the job, ( not even close to the high standard we're used to from the back and the lenses..)
As the DM+ is not realy a new camera, but something thrown together just to say Hassy wasn't the only with a new body on Photokina..
I wonderd some one might know if phase one Mamiya would come out with some real evolution of the thing within a year or so ? ..
Why ooh why didn't they buy Contax ? instead of reverting to mamiya .. :p:p
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I think we all have to assume something is coming, and that it will work with current Phase backs and lenses, but anything beyond that is a guess. It is the usual deal that anyone who knows can't say and anyone who says doesn't know. My guess is that it will be announced late this year or early 2014 for late 2014/early 2015 delivery and it will coincide with a working USB3 port. The DF+ is a nice improvement over the DF -- moreso than the specs would suggest, but not sure it is worth the price.
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Knowing the huge amount of time and money that Hasselblad spent to create the H system I would be very surprised if Phase One coould justify a completely new body, I suspect a continued evolution of what they have would be the only financially viable option.
All IMO obviously.
Nick-T
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Good point Nick, remember Phase One developed the H system with Hasselblad, I don't mind evolution, look at the VW Golf.....
I like access to older mamiya lenses (50mm shift, 80mm 1.9) Hasselblad's H system means when you buy in relatively cheaply 2nd hand, lenses cost 4 figures, new or 2nd hand. Mamiya gives you access to LS lenses (4figures) as well as lenses costing less than £100 and although stop down, still perform stunningly (if you buy the right ones... :o
I thought my DF was awful....it was reliable but the autofocus sucked, but it was me, I'd set it up wrong, with he'll
From my a dealer and a firmware upgrade it's like night and day.
Having hAd both systems I still say we are blessed to ave two evenly matched medium or at systems that with some tweaking allow us one thing in particular....
To get out there and do our jobs and take amazing, inspiring and technically excellent images.....
Nothing more, nothing less...
I'll make this statement... If you put he same amount of energy wishing, hoping and waiting for a better camera or better software that does this or that, into going out there and using what you have and taking better pictures, refining your style and just getting 'better' who cares about the latest gizmo.....?
S
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Knowing the huge amount of time and money that Hasselblad spent to create the H system I would be very surprised if Phase One coould justify a completely new body, I suspect a continued evolution of what they have would be the only financially viable option.
Nick, your theory runs contrary to the public statements of the CEO of Phase One (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1735801/phase-one-were-brand-camera-design) who has indicated they are actively developing a brand new body (which, as you note, takes considerable time and money). Having recently purchased both Mamiya and Leaf, and having had great sales of the IQ Phase One is clearly in a good financial position to be making such large and long investments.
I think one need only look at the IQ for a demonstration of what Phase One can create given appropriate development time and cost.
Also, if you haven't played with a DF+, while definitely an evolution from the DF (definitely not a new body) it does represent the pinnacle of that evolutionary line. The autofocus is fast and accurate and rarely, if ever, hunts and there were significant reworking and upgrades to the mechanical parts. All that said, the DF with current firmware (and assuming you're using good quality batteries) should not have any quirks and should be reliable; Julien, have you worked with your dealer to narrow down possible causes?
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Hi,
Just a personal reflection: Nice to hear Phase has resources, ambition and knowledge to develop a new system.
I have not seen the IQ180 in person but I'm quite impressed by it's capabilities what I have seen. Being a software engineer (sort of) I realize the amount of work and knowledge such software requires.
Best regards
Erik
Nick, your theory runs contrary to the public statements of the CEO of Phase One who has indicated they are actively developing a brand new body (which, as you note takes considerable time and money). Having recently purchased both Mamiya and Leaf, and having had great sales of the IQ Phase One is clearly in a good financial position to be making such large and long investments.
I think one need only look at the IQ for a demonstration of what Phase One can create given appropriate development time and cost.
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Good point Nick, remember Phase One developed the H system with Hasselblad,
Steve I don't think this is correct. My understanding is that there was some consultation with Phase One around the electronic interface (between body and back) but that Phase one certainly weren't involved in the H system design.
Nick-T
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Steve I don't think this is correct. My understanding is that there was some consultation with Phase One around the electronic interface (between body and back) but that Phase one certainly weren't involved in the H system design.
I'll vouch for that. The participation was in developing, implementing, and testing the electronic communication - a vital component of the system to be sure, but just one component of the overall system. The overall system was not (to my understanding) part of the scope of that participation.
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Nick, your theory runs contrary to the public statements of the CEO of Phase One (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1735801/phase-one-were-brand-camera-design)
Hi Doug
Thanks for that.
From the article linked:
"The news comes as Håkonsson revealed that Phase One was actively working on a new design for its DF camera system"
I hope that means a completely new Camera system (like the much missed and awesome Hy6), but I still suspect that the prohibitive costs of developing something completely new will mean more of an evolution of the existing camera.
I'd love to be proved wrong.
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Hi Doug,
Thanks for the link. I note it was from september 2010. We have seen the IQ180 an impressive back. Any news on the new camera?
Best regards
Erik
Hi Doug
Thanks for that.
From the article linked:
"The news comes as Håkonsson revealed that Phase One was actively working on a new design for its DF camera system"
I hope that means a completely new Camera system (like the much missed and awesome Hy6), but I still suspect that the prohibitive costs of developing something completely new will mean more of an evolution of the existing camera.
I'd love to be proved wrong.
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I wonder, besides just speculations on what the new camera might be, what features would you want to see in a new Phase camera?
Wish list anyone?
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What about a Nikon D800 with an IQ180 bolted to the back of it...
(Sorry)
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I'm sure you meant an IQ180
Sorry Erik, other than what the CEO chooses to say publicly I'm not in a position to speak to future products or timelines thereof.
I don't think I'd be stepping out of bounds to say though that developing the IQ took many years, and developing a brand new camera system is at least as complicated.
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What about a Nikon D800 with an IQ180 bolted to the back of it...
I'm sure you meant an IQ180 with a Fuji 680 shrunk down with the Honey I Shrunk the Kids bolted on the front of it.
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Aah, the Hy6,
what ever happend to that beauty ?..
Since Sinar and Leaf dropped it, ( why did they drop such a beautifull thing? ), i haven't seen one around..
That one was so promissing :) But no dealers i can find in France :( so service could be misery when things have to go fast..
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Aah, the Hy6,
what ever happend to that beauty ?..
Since Sinar and Leaf dropped it, ( why did they drop such a beautifull thing? ), i haven't seen one around..
That one was so promissing :) But no dealers i can find in France :( so service could be misery when things have to go fast..
Ah Julien - have heart! Leaf offers 4 digital backs for the Hy6 platform:
*Credo 80
*Credo 60
*AFi-II 10R (currently on promo for $17,990)
*AFi-II 12R(currently on promo for $23,990)
We've had Leaf digital back sales for the Hy6 platform for 4 consecutive months (since the announcement of the AFi Mod 2).
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Hello,
The Rolleiflex Hy6 is an impressive camera and yes I had the opportunity to try one some years ago.
The major problem I see as a working photographer is compared to the Hasselblad and Mamya is the lack of wide angle lenses under 50mm.
Ciao
Simon
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Hi,
The Hy6 is still around: http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/
There are some posters on the forum who own it and love it!
Best regards
Erik
Hi Doug
Thanks for that.
From the article linked:
"The news comes as Håkonsson revealed that Phase One was actively working on a new design for its DF camera system"
I hope that means a completely new Camera system (like the much missed and awesome Hy6), but I still suspect that the prohibitive costs of developing something completely new will mean more of an evolution of the existing camera.
I'd love to be proved wrong.
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Yeah,
i understand your concern on wide angels,
BUT!!!,
When the H series of hassy came out there were no wide angels to .. !
When the S from Leica came out no wide angels to,
and even the Mamiphase DM, only recently introduced high quality Wide-angles from shneider, ..
( actually i have the 28 from Mamiya, it's my only not "shneiderlens" as it wasn't out yet, and you see the difference :):p , in both build quality and image quality .. -
I think if th Hy6 would have got a chance to realy developpe as the other did, backed up by a DB maker, it would have had realy large angle lenses...
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By the way, has this become a realy hated hijack ..?
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Any way back to mamiphase topic
wanted feautre, ? Well improved focussing!!,
Both manual and automatic,
as i now see with mine, when auto focussing it takes some practice to learn where you have to focus so you're shure the thing you want focus is focus :) :p
That's why i mostely manual focus, but even there i have to trust on the focus assist, and there's still a bit of unpresize wonkyness on that.. Now the technique is: Manual focus, with focus assist and loupe to be shure.
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Hi,
I know this is off topic. But there is a very nice 40mm Schneider lens for the Leaf AFi / Sinar & Rollie Hy6. It is a manual focus lens.
Cheers,
Paul
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Thanks Doug for bailing me out on the Phase / Hasselblad development..... I knew they had talked extensively but like most things, found I don't really know anything about anything. ;D
::)
S
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Hello,
The Rolleiflex Hy6 is an impressive camera and yes I had the opportunity to try one some years ago.
The major problem I see as a working photographer is compared to the Hasselblad and Mamya is the lack of wide angle lenses under 50mm.
Ciao
Simon
I think the lens options made a difference, but without actual information (though I heard a lot of rumors) I believe a higher market penetration of the HY6 was it wasn't adopted by Phase One or Hasselblad.
You never could have succeeded with a film camera if you didn't have Kodak and Fuji's participation and in the world of digital, with only two digital solutions, Leaf and Sinar, the market was really limited.
Also add into the fact that the Rollei didn't have the world's largest established user base, which meant most potential buyers we're looking at a large investment in lenses, body's, finders and backs.
Great camera, great idea, but the cards we're stacked against them.
IMO
BC
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I hope the game ain't over yet ;)
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my wild feeling only_ I don't think they can make an amazing or great camera soon. I don't think there are that much desire or market or creative mind for it. I might be wrong, but for some reasons, I feel that way. Our expectation is so high. We need a Steve Jobs for it, but the social environment is not helping for him to do it. He might want to make something else rather than a relatively big camera. ...like a TV or a phone or ...which can affect everybody's everyday. Don't wait. Choose what you like and try to be happy with it :) hmm...it sounds like a marriage...Let's not expect our wives to change a lot for us soon :)
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my wild feeling only_ I don't think they can make an amazing or great camera soon. I don't think there are that much desire or market or creative mind for it. I might be wrong, but for some reasons, I feel that way. Our expectation is so high. We need a Steve Jobs for it, but the social environment is not helping for him to do it. He might want to make something else rather than a relatively big camera. ...like a TV or a phone or ...which can affect everybody's everyday. Don't wait. Choose what you like and try to be happy with it :) hmm...it sounds like a marriage...Let's not expect our wives to change a lot for us soon :)
DHW-JHartje
Sorry, I used the wrong word and amended my post. I wish your company well.
Studio347
I don't the desire or market is not there for a capable camera of any format, I just think there has been a lot of noise pushed out by a small handful of people about the Nikon, which has permeated this forum.
No camera or format is perfect. I'd love something like the Sony RX1, you know kind of like an autofocus Leica, but it only has one lens. I love a smaller apc type sony or well built camera with a moderate zoom that had a continuous f stop, but that also doesn't exist.
Nothing our there is perfect but I wouldn't sing the end of any system or camera yet.
IMO
BC
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The Rolleiflex Hy6 is an impressive camera and yes I had the opportunity to try one some years ago.
The major problem I see as a working photographer is compared to the Hasselblad and Mamya is the lack of wide angle lenses under 50mm.
As someone who dropped Mamiya 645 system with numerous lenses and now shoot Hy6 with mere two lenses (80/2.8 Xenotar AFD PQS, 50/4 Distagon PQ)... I aint ever stepping back to Mamiya 645 again. Why? The Rolleiflex lenses are much superior and by major margin and the Hy6 is by a very large margin a much superior camera. Among the lenses I owned for Mamiya were two D lenses, the 28mm and 45mm. Do I miss them? No. The 45mm is a good example, tack sharp from corner to corner, but... I found it boring. It lacked character. Each of the current line of Rolleiflex lenses are top notch and with not mere sharpness but a wonderful character. Ok, so Phase/Mamiya have "Schneider" lenses?? Hm... They are not made by Schneider. Only the glass is, and then installed into Mamiya lenses in Japan. Do a search of images shot with the 80/2.8 LS and compare to images shot with Rolleiflex Xenotar 80/2.8. Major difference. Look at the out of focus areas, look at sharpness wide open. Major difference. Why one may ask is Phase One not interested in the best Schneider glass available???
Thus to counter that you ask for wides, I suggest with politeness to ask yourself what you prefer to shoot with (and what is suffice to get the job done); a large variety of focallengths including wide, or lenses that are top notch and with a wonderful character? What will bring you most return on the business? For wider, there is always possibility to add a small tech camera with just one wide lens.
As someone else said there is a 40mm Rolleiflex and with a 645 sized sensor that is pretty wide. From what I understand from DHW they already have a design for a 35mm, however the issue is that it will be very expensive if they fabricate it...
On the camera side, DHW now have the rights to further develop Hy6 on both hardware and firmware side. Those rights are owned by Leaf, a Phase One company. The obvious question one can ask is why does not Phase One invest in the Rolleiflex as a Phase One camera, perhaps an upper line to replace the ancient RZ??? The Hy6 is lightyears ahead in quality, usability and every aspect compared to anything from Mamiya.
Another question is obvious, Phase One have stated they support an open platform system and even demonstrated that in a law suit against Hasselblad on matter the other year. Hmm... one must wonder why they not then offer their own backs for the best medium format camera around, when in fact the legal rights to the system is in the hands of a Phase One company: Leaf.
About Mamiya, I admit I did not like the 645 system, and that I also suffered from several mediocre products/issues. That said, I also had the Mamiya 7 and on the very contrary that indeed was a very splendid and durable system and very well thought out such.
Best regards,
Anders
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Instead of wasting time and R&D money developing a new camera, that's still going to suck compared to a typical DSLR, why doesn't Phase just commission an
actual camera maker to produce the camera for them?
Think about it, a Canon 645 DSLR that can accept backs, and if it were to be built to standards as good as a 1D series, the only limitation for at least a decade to come would be the performance/features of the back itself.
If I could slap an IQ180-like chip on the back of a 1Dx, it would be the last camera I ever buy...
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I just love it when people think buying a better camera will somehow make them a better photographer.....
Was it Ansel Adams who once said
' I'd rather take a good picture with a bad camera than a bad picture with a good camera'...
Current form shows the above to be wildly inaccurate so feel free to correct me.
S
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Hi,
A more versatile camera can make you a more versatile photographer.
I guess that it is not easy for Phase to design the ultimate camera, as different users have different needs. My guess is that Phase went int cameras a bit reluctantly, because the needed a platform to put their lenses on. I'd imagine that Phase would be glad to just sell digital backs. But, after Hasselblad closed the H systems they needed to make sure they had a DSLR.
Many users are perfectly happy with technical cameras. I guess that the new Phase One camera will be a pretty conventional DSLR but greatly improved.
Best regards
Erik
I just love it when people think buying a better camera will somehow make them a better photographer.....
Was it Ansel Adams who once said
' I'd rather take a good picture with a bad camera than a bad picture with a good camera'...
Current form shows the above to be wildly inaccurate so feel free to correct me.
S
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Hi,
A more versatile camera can make you a more versatile photographer.
I guess that it is not easy for Phase to design the ultimate camera, as different users have different needs. My guess is that Phase went int cameras a bit reluctantly, because the needed a platform to put their lenses on. I'd imagine that Phase would be glad to just sell digital backs. But, after Hasselblad closed the H systems they needed to make sure they had a DSLR.
Many users are perfectly happy with technical cameras. I guess that the new Phase One camera will be a pretty conventional DSLR but greatly improved.
Best regards
Erik
In order to get the best performance possible with the latest technology, close cooperation between digital sensor, camera, and lenses is essential. Retaining a healthy environment for company survival and product development then becomes an important factor. From that standpoint - regardless of what Hasselblad did - it was to Phase One's benefit to be on board via a full partnership with a camera company, to work more closely with them, and to buttress their financial position. Going it alone was not an option no matter what path any competitor took.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I agree. Which is why after fighting against my Mamiya's inability to make a sharp portrait at noon on an overcast winter day, and its tendency to focus on the wrong thing on a very sunny day, I finally gave in and moved back to dSLRs and my iPhone. The files are nowhere as good, the pictures and my mood are infinitely better. The Mamiya is a POS. The Mamiya/Phase system is capable of beautiful results, but in my hands it is not so useful. And I used to photograph fashion shows so I certainly know how to use a camera under pressure. As a sidenote, the first Mamiya (not Phase) body was sold to me, with the back, by Le Moyen Format in Paris, and it developed sync problems with the back, leading to a large part of the image at the bottom turning magenta. I had bought the Value Added warranty on the back. Whereupon Le Moyen Format said they could get the body fixed, but it would take 3 months to have it sent back to Japan and to get it back under the standard Mamiya warranty, too bad, as the body didn't fall under the Value Added warranty, just the back. I had to buy another body used to keep working. Medium format dealers are a chapter in an ugly book, and I did find out later that eg. Mamiya Germany could fix the body sync in a day. Prophot, Phase's rep in Paris always stood behind the back warranty itself.
Edmund
Hi,
A more versatile camera can make you a more versatile photographer.
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I just love it when people think buying a better camera will somehow make them a better photographer.....
Was it Ansel Adams who once said
' I'd rather take a good picture with a bad camera than a bad picture with a good camera'...
Current form shows the above to be wildly inaccurate so feel free to correct me.
S
There are some expectations to be met when it comes to an expensive professional peice of equipment, if a camera is designed with autofocus use in mind, it should actually have autofocus that, you know, works...
Also, you are sometimes simply physically limited by what your camera can do, if your lens goes to f/2.8 but the other guy's glass is f/2, that might just be enough for him to get the shot, let alone judge if it's good or not. No one really goes out to shoot birds with a 50mm unless you want a whole flock in the frame either.
Just examples...
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Medium format dealers are a chapter in an ugly book, and I did find out later that eg. Mamiya Germany could fix the body sync in a day.
Could I gently suggest you might phrase this that the dealers you dealt with were a chapter in an ugly book?
Like any kind of business not all dealers are equal.
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Doug,
Many a good word has been said about you. In fact I have often indicated in the answer to queries here that the dealers here are nice guys; and I did state in my posting that the Phase rep was perfectly straight.
To get back to the Mamiya topic, I think the body itself is the weakest link in the Phase proposition, while the lenses are ok, and the backs themselves and the software are first rate. I never liked the look of the Hassy lenses, and the software and color is what it is, but in all my tests the camera really focused well and the images were slightly sharper than with the Mamiya.
Edmund
Could I gently suggest you might phrase this that the dealers you dealt with were a chapter in an ugly book?
Like any kind of business not all dealers are equal.
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Hi,
I have the impression that the camera went trough several iterations with improvements in focus since Phase took over Mamiya.
Focusing depends on sample variations, too.
I have recently looked at an IQ180 image that seems to have very good focus.
Best regards
Erik
Doug,
Many a good word has been said about you. In fact I have often indicated in the answer to queries here that the dealers here are nice guys; and I did state in my posting that the Phase rep was perfectly straight.
To get back to the Mamiya topic, I think the body itself is the weakest link in the Phase proposition, while the lenses are ok, and the backs themselves and the software are first rate. I never liked the look of the Hassy lenses, and the software and color is what it is, but in all my tests the camera really focused well and the images were slightly sharper than with the Mamiya.
Edmund
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I just love it when people think buying a better camera will somehow make them a better photographer.....
Was it Ansel Adams who once said
' I'd rather take a good picture with a bad camera than a bad picture with a good camera'...
Current form shows the above to be wildly inaccurate so feel free to correct me.
S
I never said it would make me a better photographer i said i would make me a less annoyed photographet !!!.
Imagine every time your car changes gear it gives you a hudge bang ...
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I never said it would make me a better photographer i said i would make me a less annoyed photographet !!!.
Imagine every time your car changes gear it gives you a hudge bang ...
and actually, a bad photographer would never earn enough money with his work to buy one !