Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: pco98 on July 06, 2012, 12:19:47 pm
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Hello all
Have a little debate going round in my head about choosing a MacBook Pro vs
MacBook Pro Retina.
At the moment the standard 15" is looking the real performance machine with
appropriate modification 2x SSD SATA III RAID 0 internal setup (maxing out at
1000MBs read and 900 MB s write speeds (see
http://blog.macsales.com/14263-owc-ssds-make-2012-mbp-15-a-speed-champ).
And a little down the line for future proofing there is the possibility that it
could be upgraded to 32GB once 16GB ram pieces come on the market and then
reduce in price a year or so later. The Retina def will not be upgradeable in
that regard.
My usage is predominantly for photography (Aperture) and video (Final Cut Pro X)
so would benefit from the RAID set up, though I am a serious enthusiast rather
than pro in both these categories.
Of course the retina display is gorgeous and having now seen it in store am all
the more sold by it. It is also a big selling point for photographers and video
editors.
Price is not really a factor in my decision.
Am slightly more towards performance over retina display but it is a pull. Even
though I have just looked at the retina display, I am already disappointed with
the look of my current display now!
Also thought of the option of Retina plus Thunderbolt external with SSDs but
from the reviews I've seen they're not hitting the same potential as the above
internal RAID config (could be mistaken on that though)?
Would welcome some debate to help with my decision making process
Many thanks
Ross
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Go for expandability.
I am skipping over the current Retina screened Mac Book pro, yes the screen is sexy but there are problems with the first generation of retina screened MBPs that relate directly to the needs of working photographers. Lloyd Chambers covers them here: http://www.macperformanceguide.com/blog/2012/20120703_2-MacBookPro-Retina-screen-burn-in.html
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Would like to think that Apple will cover those issues under warranty and seems to be so far even if Lloyd has had a bit of a struggle to get there. But yes expandability is a big selling point for the standard MBP. It is a model which will have more longevity than the retina. But oh that screen... ;o)
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I can't understand why any person with a modicum of intelligence would purchase an Apple computer / laptop. It truly befuddles me to think, I can't upgrade ram, battery or anything else in a MBP-R. Go buy the much better HP Envy 17", better screen, better performance, it's upgradeable and use the $1,000 - $2,000.00 you'll save to buy a printer or take a vacation.... I have had so many problems with Apple products.... I'll probably purge everything by year end, trade the IPod for the Galaxy Player, IPhone for the Note 2 and IMacs have already received the sledgehammer treatment. I have a MBP that I use, but my HP laptops have proven to be better performing and more reliable.
Apple is taking the same path they did during their first incarnation and if not for Bill Gates and Co.. they would have been bankrupt, so thank BG for bailing them out once, I doubt he'll do it again. They knight Ive the designer and they are the poorest designed products I have ever seen.
Apple products are perfect for the ignorant, though the IPhone is good enough as a basic phone, but have been surpassed by many others.... I just have to laugh at the Hype "Retina" screen LOL... it's a nice laptop screen, it's just not the next coming. The IPad screen was over-hyped, I went into an Apple store, looked at the 2 and the New side by side.... no difference, bought the cheaper one (for ex wife) since it was the same. I laugh at people waiting in lines to buy last year's technology because they fall for the Apple marketing machine. Apple doesn't make anything.... They are a marketing company....
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Please, everyone, ignore the troll.
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Please, everyone, ignore the troll.
Phil, you are funny! :-) Are you looking in the mirror talking to yourself again? Just try to be a free thinker.... I know it's difficult for a person such as yourself, but just try... And Phil, the stalking is so 80s :-)
Carry on....
Ps, and don't you worry, we are ignoring you, as usual you add absolutely nothing to a conversation.....
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I can't understand why any person with a modicum of intelligence would purchase an Apple computer / laptop.
I know lots of Mac users, and many of them seem pretty bright to me. I suspect the problem lies with your understanding of why people might want to buy and use an Apple product. In any case, your post provides no useful information for the original poster, and you're hardly going to change anyone's mind with so juvenile a personal attack, so why bother?
If it's just for the attention, then you're a troll, plain and simple, and I'm feeding you. Alas.
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Intelligence is relative..... I know you believe because MR uses a Mac, well then it must be a great device! Give me a break..
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On topic specific responses appreciated, thanks
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I be dumb and slow and easily manipulated. Must be a Mac user, eh? :P Still here are my thoughts.
If I were going for another laptop at this stage, I would probably opt for the MBPr and max out the ram. The only two elements I can't seem to get a good handle on in terms of value is the upgrade to the 2.7Ghz i7 over the 2.6Ghz. I would also probably only get the 512GB SSD. There's never going to be enough internal storage on a laptop to me my needs. 512GB is enough for a travel library as well as the apps I use and the 768GB option is a little too pricy. Everything else would go on external TB drives of some form in any case.
I normally target around four years usage out of my laptops. I'm currently on a 2009 17" MBP C2D 2.66. I bout it while I was still overseas. I've done one set of upgrades to 8GB ram and a faster 500GB spindle. I haven't cracked the lid to use the screen for something over a year.
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Gemtech is no longer part of this conversation (or any other on this forum).
Michael
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Gemtech is no longer part of this conversation (or any other on this forum).
Michael
Thanks. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
At home, I rarely use my laptop's display. My desktop monitors are superior. When on the road, of course, I use it constantly. So, the amazingness of the Retina display is fairly unimportant to me.
The reason I opted for the MBPR was simple: dual ThunderBolt ports. If the non-Retina version could have driven two external 2560x1600 displays I would have gone that route. The lack of that capability was the deal breaker for me.
I ordered my MBPR with 16GB RAM, which for a stitcher using a D800E is barely adequate. I was really wanting to get 32GB in my next Apple laptop. This can easily be done this with a Lenovo W520 (which I also have).
I agree with the 512GB vs 768GB decision. It simply isn't worth the price jump. If you really need that little bit more SSD storage, you can buy an external ThunderBolt 512GB SSD for only a bit more and have 1024GB of SSD available. I archive most of my library to external storage devices. I only use the internal storage for initial import and edits. I don't find myself going back and pulling up photos from long ago to edit them, so I don't worry about keeping my entire catalog on the laptop hard drive. I do, however, keep final versions of important photos on my laptop. That all being said, having a nice display on the laptop to work on while on the road or to show to others is nice.
If your needs are met with a single 2560x1600 external DisplayPort, then the non-Retina alternative seems like the right way to go. I know that non-Retina is how I would have gone if it had two ports. I know I will greatly miss the built-in GigE port. I mount many AFP/NFS shares (nearly a dozen at times). Having to use a dongle stinks. I will be buying the Belkin ThunderBolt dock (http://www.belkin.com/thunderbolt/) (or equivalent) that gets me eSATA, GigE, FireWire 800, more USB 3.0, audio in/out, etc.
I am curious what the ICC profile for my MBPr will show in terms of gamut. I certainly am not expecting anything much more than sRGB.
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Thanks for the Belkin link, Ifeagan.
For me the rMBP was good timing - even better if it arrives next week, as promised. Like you I went for the 16/512 config. I'll use it for LR4 and FCPX and the limit of 16gb ram doesn't really bother me. From reading a few reviews, including Michael's, I'm sure it will handle my upper limit file sizes for stills of almost 1gb (Michael mentioned 800mb as being fine), and will sail through my editing requirements.
It's a bummer that Tbolt is so expensive but prices will fall soon, as they always do, and I'll continue to use FW till I can justify TB. Which, with my (somewhat peurile) self control will be almost immediately!
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I'm amazed by the display of the new MBPR, however, being a happy MBP 2010 owner, I'd still prefer the "old/bulky" one because of hardware upgrades.
The retina display is spectacular, but nothing beats a high end external display for photographic purposes.
On the filed I could just keep on working as always done so far with my 1680x1050 matte display.
Just my .02$
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The retina display is spectacular, but nothing beats a high end external display for photographic purposes.
I agree, and I suppose another thing that persuaded me to get the retina version is I can have my cake and eat it, sort of. I can hook my external display up at base and then enjoy the decent retina screen on the move.
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Thanks for the useful input. Can definitely see the external display and twin thunderbolts sell. Looking at my own usage I am just a laptop only guy so the external display is not such an issue. Also will not have a MacPro at home so this will be my be all and end all (which is in a way a selling point for the retina screen)
I agree with the other commentators about not going with the 768GB SSD. Am interested to see what options OWC comes up with for this only part which will be 'user-servicable' and I think there would be the upgrade path at a future date.
In terms of drive performance though, a RAID 0 setup is going to be pretty killer and unless they do resurrect the 17" I don't see this being a possibility in the future with the new form factor. SATA III will be around for some time so I think the RAID 0 MBP is going to be outperforming retina updates for quite some time in that regard. And if 32GB RAM in the end was possible that would also give extra mileage through successive Retina updates or keeping up-to-date with newer models which do introduce 32GB possibilities (but as Apple is only officially acknowledging 16GB possibilities now it may be in a few updates time before 32GB soldered-in is offered).
One thing which might swing me still to the Retina - is there a possibility to get close to that internal RAID 0 setup with an external thunderbolt setup (i.e. 2x SATA III SSDs clocking in at 1000MB/900MB read/write speeds)? So far I haven't seen any thunderbolt tests reach its supposed peak capability. My main photo editing would be mostly sitting at a desk so could live with external setup for when I wanted those exclusive speeds.
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If you haven't, read the article at Tom's Hardware about ThunderBolt (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thunderbolt-performance-z77a-gd80,3205.html) I mentioned in this post (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=67534.msg538204#msg538204). It will help you understand the performance characteristics. In a nut-shell, ThunderBolt is capable of the performance you seek for sequential I/O.
(http://media.bestofmicro.com/H/A/338878/original/externalraidsequential.png)
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Thanks for those links, very informative. Have also been following test on Bare Feats as well. The performance is possible but of course these systems come at a big cost. The SSD testing involved 6 drives (some of the performance problems they had there are probably related to the Crucial SSD drives which have been shown to be flawed in Bare Feats tests with other SSD drives) although that probably was overkill.
I'd be looking at two SSD drive setup internally. Could that be matched with a two SSD drive setup externally?
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Gemtech is no longer part of this conversation (or any other on this forum).
Michael
I should have read down a bit before hitting the report button
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Really interesting thread, specially as my aged (6 years old) iMac is no longer upgradable in terms of OS, and thus probably limited in terms of future Aperture upgrades too. Plus the max RAM is limited to 3GB. That Apple didn't upgrade the iMac line leaves me wondering about the MBP, and having seen the retina display just adds to the confusion as to where to go next.
I'm inclined to go MBP & then at some point add an external display. The retina display is lovely, but the machine it's attacghed to just seems too limited.
Edit: typos
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I was ready to pull the trigger on a MBPR until I read that (due to the inherent difficulty in recycling some of the components e.g. the glued-in battery) Apple has decided to remove itself from the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) - the leading green consumer electronics standard. Too busy counting all the cash they're sitting on to give a s**t about the planet I guess.
Not sure this would have happened if Jobs was still at the helm ... he at least recognised that an environmentally concious business model is a good thing, both from a financial perspective, and an ethical one.
Kinda ironic that landscape photographers seem to be at the front of the queue to buy this.
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Here is the link to external RAID 0 SSDx4 thunderbolt tests compared with SAS from Bare Feats - http://www.barefeats.com/tbolt01.html
Point 3 of their insights is interesting, suggesting TB is not reaching its theoretical top performance. Also bear in mind this is with 4 SSDs in TB configuration. Two internal ones on the new MacBook Pro are easily outperforming this expensive setup as you need to buy the Pegasus R4 with HDDs first then replace with SSDs.
Am curious to see if OWC's TB solution overcome this but that probably won't come out until later in the year.
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Not sure this would have happened if Jobs was still at the helm ... he at least recognised that an environmentally concious business model is a good thing, both from a financial perspective, and an ethical one.
It was definitely on Jobs' schedule and plan. Jobs touch will be tangible for 2-3 years or so, at least.
Been said that, I didn't like that much this move as well.
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I was also initially a bit disappointed by this too but there maybe more to this than initial impressions. Recent posting on MacRumors suggested that EPEAT itself may be a little out of touch:
The Loop's Jim Dalrymple notes that even EPEAT acknowledges that many of its standards are outdated, with Apple apparently believing that those criteria have become too restrictive and do not address the full gamut of the company's environmental commitments.
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Even if many of EPEAT's standards are out of date, I doubt that they will (or should) remove easily replaceable batteries as part of their standard for laptops. Dead batteries are extremely common in older machines and replacement with a working battery is an important part of refurbishing a laptop so that it can continue to be used. I have a laptop that is on its third battery that I still use, admittedly as a very basic machine. The machine is a ThinkPad T42p and is nearly 8 years old. While it isn't any speed demon, it is just fine for web browsing running Linux.
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I was ready to pull the trigger on a MBPR until I read that (due to the inherent difficulty in recycling some of the components e.g. the glued-in battery) Apple has decided to remove itself from the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) - the leading green consumer electronics standard.
This just in:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1167678/apple_returns_products_to_epeat_registry.html
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One of the most telling lines from the MW article, "...it also seems likely Apple has maneuvered to get what it wants: more input into the updated standard."
As the masters of controlling their image that they are, Apple made a smart move and now has lots of free publicity as well.
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What is the color quality on theMBPR. 8-bit? Or 6- bit like LCD on older power books. The day they come out with 16 million of colors I will cheer and buy.? My old MBP machine and cinema screen still work.
Cheers. Elo
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What is the color quality on theMBPR. 8-bit? Or 6- bit like LCD on older power books. The day they come out with 16 million of colors I will cheer and buy.? My old MBP machine and cinema screen still work.
Cheers. Elo
It uses a true 8-bit panel (finally). I haven't yet gotten my hands on an ICC profile to analyze. Creating one will be one of the the first things I do when mine arrives, hopefully in a few weeks (fingers crossed).
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The screen on the Retina is finally an IPS. While the TNs on other Apple laptops have been good examples of the technology in recent years, there is no comparison if you will be relying on the screen for consistent colour, brightness and contrast.
I will be acquiring a RMBP as soon as I can afford one. It would replace both my 13MBP and my iMac.
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what colour standard does the new MBPR Retina Display meet sRGB or AdobeRGB etc......?????
cheers elo
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what colour standard does the new MBPR Retina Display meet sRGB or AdobeRGB etc......?????
QUOTE (http://cdtobie.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/color-gamut-of-retina-display-macbook-pro/):
While the gamut of the Retina display is a good match to sRGB already, calibration made improvements to the white point and gamma which were crucial to getting good matching to a high end desktop display. Visual match to my calibrated desktop displays is excellent with the Retina display MacBook Pro.