Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Radu Arama on February 06, 2012, 10:03:34 am
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The new short telephoto lens is rumored to be under 100mm and with a f2.8 aperture. Expect full details when CP+ begins. The tethering software if done right could open new opportunities for the 645D.
Best regards,
Radu
Edit:
D FA 90/2,8 (tentative) name
Unifocal medium-telephoto lens for use with the PENTAX 645D
Focal length ideal for portraiture and high-quality image reproduction with beautiful bokeh (out-of-focus) effect
Market launch scheduled for 2012
The software will be available from March for 200 USD: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/02/07/Pentax_645D_transmitter_tethering_software
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Wow I hope both of these statements are true. Most of my work is in the studio and I HATE using an Eye-FI card to get a preview on my macbook.
And a 100 f2.8 would be awesome. Right now I mostly shoot portraits with my 120mm. It does a awesome job...but having the option to go f2.8 would be great
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Natas:
Try the 67 105mm f/2.4 or 90mm f/2.8 (my preference)
e.g. @f2.8
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5158/5854529556_1e2d5e4566_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/)
_IGP2322 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr
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You know, I have thought about that lens multiple times....but the thought of having to manually focus for a portrait is a little scary to me.
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This was the prototype from last year's CP+:
(http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2011-02/09/P1050858-L.JPG)
picture © digitalcamera.jp
Best regards,
Radu
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You know, I have thought about that lens multiple times....but the thought of having to manually focus for a portrait is a little scary to me.
i can't believe how we managed without AF way back then.
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I manually focused with a Mamiya years ago and an old Pentax 35mm camera....I was horrible at it ;) The new stuff has me spoiled
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It would be great if Pentax got new 645 lenses on the shelves, it's one thing to announce but another to supply.
The 25mm f/4 was announced at CP+ a year ago but is still not available.
It's surely a little embarassing for them to announce another lense at this CP+ with the previous announcement still in fairy land.
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I'll try to visit CP+ next weekend, should be able to report on the new Pentax stuff and D800.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The software will be available in both Mac and Windows vesions, English or Japanese languages.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/02/07/Pentax_645D_transmitter_tethering_software
Radu
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First official photo:
(http://www.pentax.jp/english/news/announce/info-image/20120208_1.jpg)
Regards,
Radu
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So it's 90/2.8...what a missed opportunity to make a really fast short tele. :(
Leica (75/2.5) and Hasselblad (100/2.2) must be smiling at this news...and Phase/Mamiya and Contax users still have their old 80/1.9 and 80/2 lenses...
How could the company which gave us the 105/2.4 for the big 6x7 format, baulk at making a 90mm faster than f2.8 for the sub-645 format?
Ray
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This is just a guess but with Pentax WR 645 lenses becoming much wider that some of their similar earlier counterparts without WR (due to the SWM type focusing mechanism and maybe WR), I suspect a faster 90mm 645 lens like an f2.2 or f2.0 with SWM/WR, would have been simply too big (wide) when the larger diameter glass employed for the faster aperture is taken into consideration. Just look at the relatively small (decent) size the Pentax 150 f2.8 645 lens is.
Dave
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I am puzzled by this one as well. Wished they would have offered a fast one (2.0) and perhaps slightly longer, 100mm or 110mm. But then, this may requalify as a slighly longish standard lens for their anticipated 645 with a lesser crop factor. Doesn't look much like a standard lens, but why not. I am sure it'll be tack sharp from 2.8 and while it may not fit my style, it may be an attractive third new lens for many, if reasonably priced.
The tethering software is a no-brainer.
Good news is the availability of the 25mm in April, this time re-classified as DA. Would love to know more what that means.
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I am puzzled by this one as well. Wished they would have offered a fast one (2.0) and perhaps slightly longer, 100mm or 110mm. But then, this may requalify as a slighly longish standard lens for their anticipated 645 with a lesser crop factor.
That seems pretty likely.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Ray, is the Leica f/2.5 really that much faster? Before I pass judgement, I would like to see a price. If it costs the same as the Leica, I might complain it is 1/4 of a stop slower.
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There is new lens roadmap for 645D available at CP+
(http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2012-02/09/CP+2012_027.jpg)
From this website: http://digitalcamera.jp/
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Ray, is the Leica f/2.5 really that much faster? Before I pass judgement, I would like to see a price. If it costs the same as the Leica, I might complain it is 1/4 of a stop slower.
1/3 of a stop. OK, not that much different, and maybe a lot less expensive. But it betrays a lack of ambition. The Pentax 645 remains the only mainstream focal plane shutter MF camera I can think of to never have a lens faster than f2.8. Bigger format cameras like the Pentax 67, Norita 66, and Hasselblad 200s, even some with leaf shutters like the Rollei 6008, managed to do it. And that focal length (long standard/very short tele) is where they all do it - it's the sweet spot where optical design constraints, practical manufacturing constraints (cost, number and size of elements), and usage constraints (size/weight/purpose) all meet.
Pentax's 645 format FP-shutter 90/2.8 lens from 2012 goes toe-to-toe for speed with my Mamiya Press 6x9 format leaf-shutter 100/2.8 lens from around 1969. Round of applause for Pentax!
The 645D is a phenomenal camera, it just needs a couple more phenomenal lenses. Never underestimate the importance of a "flagship" fast lens - I wouldn't have jumped to Mamiya in 1992 if it didn't have that 80/1.9. How many Hasselblad 200 users were pulled in by the legendary 110/2 lens?
Ray
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There is new lens roadmap for 645D available at CP+
(http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2012-02/09/CP+2012_027.jpg)
From this website: http://digitalcamera.jp/
That roadmap says that the existing 120mm Macro is f2.8! But the actual lens is f4, isn't it?
Ray
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That roadmap says that the existing 120mm Macro is f2.8! But the actual lens is f4, isn't it?
Ray
I guess, you are right - http://www.pentax.jp/japan/products/lens/index645_macro.html
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I guess, you are right - http://www.pentax.jp/japan/products/lens/index645_macro.html
So Pentax know the road ahead of them - they're just a bit fuzzy on the road they've already travelled! ::)
Ray
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1/3 of a stop. OK, not that much different, and maybe a lot less expensive. But it betrays a lack of ambition. The Pentax 645 remains the only mainstream focal plane shutter MF camera I can think of to never have a lens faster than f2.8. Bigger format cameras like the Pentax 67, Norita 66, and Hasselblad 200s, even some with leaf shutters like the Rollei 6008, managed to do it. And that focal length (long standard/very short tele) is where they all do it - it's the sweet spot where optical design constraints, practical manufacturing constraints (cost, number and size of elements), and usage constraints (size/weight/purpose) all meet.
Pentax's 645 format FP-shutter 90/2.8 lens from 2012 goes toe-to-toe for speed with my Mamiya Press 6x9 format leaf-shutter 100/2.8 lens from around 1969. Round of applause for Pentax!
The 645D is a phenomenal camera, it just needs a couple more phenomenal lenses. Never underestimate the importance of a "flagship" fast lens - I wouldn't have jumped to Mamiya in 1992 if it didn't have that 80/1.9. How many Hasselblad 200 users were pulled in by the legendary 110/2 lens?
Ray
LOL. So does this mean your cancelling your 645D order? 8)
But in the world of medium-format, and Leica lenses have a smaller image circle, there has only ever been a handful of lenses faster than f/2.8. There is not a single lens in Mamiya's 6 and 7 rangefinder optics that are even that fast. And so when do we get a new lens for the RZ67 digital platform or Tech Camera lenses at f/2.8 working apertures?
I give Pentax credit for just trying to enter the MFD arena. They seem to be trying to get an affordable system to span the high-end 35mm stuff and the higher-end MFD. If this lens is inexpensive, not like the 25mm, but more in the 55mm price range, then I think they are trying to get solid optics for their customers. Exotic glass is expensive and if every lens release is $5K like the 25mm, they may be putting off customers look for an affordable entry into MFD. And MFD buyers are going to be more picky about their glass--it isn't like they can cut too many corners. I think (pure speculation) that they may try to build a solid, but boring, lens line that is going to complete with the Mamiya optics rather than trying to compete with Leica/Hasselblad/Tech crowd.
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I give Pentax credit for just trying to enter the MFD arena. They seem to be trying to get an affordable system to span the high-end 35mm stuff and the higher-end MFD. If this lens is inexpensive, not like the 25mm, but more in the 55mm price range, then I think they are trying to get solid optics for their customers. Exotic glass is expensive and if every lens release is $5K like the 25mm, they may be putting off customers look for an affordable entry into MFD. And MFD buyers are going to be more picky about their glass--it isn't like they can cut too many corners. I think (pure speculation) that they may try to build a solid, but boring, lens line that is going to complete with the Mamiya optics rather than trying to compete with Leica/Hasselblad/Tech crowd.
This.
I've almost pulled the trigger multiple times on the 645d. I may still at some point, but I'd have to sell my M9 and, well, that would suck. Regardless, it's always been the lenses that have stopped me. If Pentax had a series of solid, standard modern primes out at a reasonable price point I would likely be swayed. If my choices instead were a $5k 24 and a $5k 100/2, well, those numbers just don't work for me. I could have a dedicated 35mm t/s setup for the wide end, for cheaper than that one lens, along with some truly sweet 35mm glass on the short tele side. I understand quality and MF look and all that, but if you are looking at the top end for lens quality and have lots of capital and want MF, then you probably should be looking at some of the other options out there.
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LOL. So does this mean your cancelling your 645D order? 8)
Will, I'm holding off my order until Pentax bring out MF CMOS, and shorten their flange distance a tad to make it compatible with M645 lenses. :D
But in the world of medium-format, and Leica lenses have a smaller image circle, there has only ever been a handful of lenses faster than f/2.8. There is not a single lens in Mamiya's 6 and 7 rangefinder optics that are even that fast. And so when do we get a new lens for the RZ67 digital platform or Tech Camera lenses at f/2.8 working apertures?
The Mamiya 6 and 7 were optimized for compact, lightweight portability and low-vibration hand-holdability. A larger faster lens would have hurt the first goal, and the need for tiny (size 0) leaf shutters to implement the second goal ruled out a faster lens in any case.
The RZ67 already has an f2.8 lens (110/2.8 ).
Tech cameras have always been used to shoot mainly product, architecture and landscape; stopping down is the order of the day. That said, there were 100/2.8, 95/2.8 and 80/2.8 Planars, Heligons and Xenotars for the Linhof Technikas, back in the day.
I give Pentax credit for just trying to enter the MFD arena. They seem to be trying to get an affordable system to span the high-end 35mm stuff and the higher-end MFD. If this lens is inexpensive, not like the 25mm, but more in the 55mm price range, then I think they are trying to get solid optics for their customers. Exotic glass is expensive and if every lens release is $5K like the 25mm, they may be putting off customers look for an affordable entry into MFD. And MFD buyers are going to be more picky about their glass--it isn't like they can cut too many corners. I think (pure speculation) that they may try to build a solid, but boring, lens line that is going to complete with the Mamiya optics rather than trying to compete with Leica/Hasselblad/Tech crowd.
I give them credit for that too. But a fast lens needn't be as expensive as you think. I have a Mamiya pricelist from Johnsons Photopia Distribution, April 2005. Suggested retail price (SRP) for a brand new 80/1.9 N is...£456 including tax. No, there isn't a zero missing there.
Ray
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Meaning that IMO Ricoh changed the 645 line focus and target market and they (again IMO) will lower the prices across the board for both cameras and lenses (Pentax made).
The new roadmap is here:
(http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2012-02/09/CP+2012_027.jpg)
The old one (what Hoya planed last year) is here:
(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/425/947/011.jpg)
From one lens in 2012 and another one in 2013 and 2014 they switched to one in 2012 and 3 in 2013 (or later). There is also a big sign that the new zooms will be less expensive and smaller/lighter: contrary to the previous map the focal ranges was reduced making the lenses easier to design (and maintain top notch quality across the range) and manufacture. I don't expect a premium of more than 15-20% compared to current zooms they will replace (33-55, 45-85, 80-160). The 2014 could be the year of updated primes (3 or 4 will do I guess). ;D
Also a great byproduct of the new 3 zoom policy would be the pairing with a two tier camera line (one inexpensive 44x33 mm sensor and one as close as possible to "full frame 645 film") making those combination more appealing to more people based on equivalent FOV.
On the pricing front I expect a slash in 645D MSRP as close as March or April and at least one new camera at Photokina (at least as a prototype). Pentax just announced its first camera compatible with SDXC' UHS-1 speed (up to 50 MB/s) and a new Prime processor. Those advances will mitigate the problem of slow response in the 645D and maybe Pentax will use an upgraded Kodak (well, Truesense Imaging now) sensor of equal Mp count in a "baby 645D" with updated processing power for like 6-7K USD.
All in all my hunch is that Ricoh will even more reduce prices and build volume which is good for all of us.
Regards,
Radu
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This debate over whether the lens should have been brighter than f/2.8 makes a strange contrast to the claim that Pentaxian pixels peepers put the lens sweet spot at about f/11.
Maybe Pentax knows the size/weight/cost constraints of the sort of people who choose its 645D over Mamiya or Hasselblad, and have concluded that a 90/2.8 will sell far better and more profitably than a bulkier but brighter alternative design. I saw a similar situation with Four Thirds: I think that Olympus misjudged by making two of its SHG zooms at f/2 and so very difficult, heavy, expensive designs, where f/2.8 lenses would have sold far better.
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For me it all boils down to: optical performance+size / price ratio. I don't need a copy of the H 100/2.2 but costing 3499 USD instead of 3899 USD and weighting 700 grams instead of 800 grams. The main objective of a modern MF lens should be (IMO of course):
- Improved optical performance from wide open up because of the diffraction associated with high Mp sensors;
- Improved optical design in terms of aberrations (lateral and axial CA, distortion, better flare resistance, better contrast);
- Resolution up to par with future sensors in mind (i.e. 4-5 micron sensor cells);
- For this particular lens I expect excellent bokeh;
- On the mechanical side - All Weather resistance, smooth, quiet and fast AF);
- Something like 550 grams with the hood;
- 1499 to 1799 USD MSRP (depending on the Yen to USD ratio).
Regards,
Radu
This debate over whether the lens should have been brighter than f/2.8 makes a strange contrast to the claim that Pentaxian pixels peepers put the lens sweet spot at about f/11.
Maybe Pentax knows the size/weight/cost constraints of the sort of people who choose its 645D over Mamiya or Hasselblad, and have concluded that a 90/2.8 will sell far better and more profitably than a bulkier but brighter alternative design. I saw a similar situation with Four Thirds: I think that Olympus misjudged by making two of its SHG zooms at f/2 and so very difficult, heavy, expensive designs, where f/2.8 lenses would have sold far better.
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+1. I think you're summarizing many users wishes and dreams..
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I don't need a copy of the H 100/2.2 but costing 3499 USD instead of 3899 USD and weighting 700 grams instead of 800 grams.
Hi Radu,
I find this an awkward statement.
For a lot of people the HC 100mm/f2.2 is why they stick with Hasselblad or why they find/found it very difficult to ditch Hasselblad. It is a fabulous lens.
If Pentax had a similar lens I am sure even more people would consider the Pentax platform.
I wouldn't underestimate the power of attraction that one lens can have for a camera platform
Best, Joris.
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So based on that roadmap there will be no new digital autofocus primes before 2014?
25 / 4.0 (released)
55 / 2.8 (released)
90 / 2.8 (scheduled 2012)
3 zooms (scheduled 2013)
Can someone who follows the 645D (and/or reads Japanese) confirm this interpretation?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
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Hi Joris,
In a way you are right every system has (and needs to have) aspirational lenses. But I think that until Pentax builds a system as close to complete (lens availability, support, software - tethering and Adobe collaboration) IMO they are better off with outstanding value for money than copying exotic lenses. The D FA 25mm is very expensive but also unique making today a 100/2.2 is not unique and IMO there could be many other reasons for someone not to jump from H to P even if they had the same portrait lens than the other way around. So for Pentax this could be a waste of resources with little return.
But hear me out:
- 2012 - the 90/2.8 could be a modern, not very expensive portrait lens for the 44x33 mm sensor. Next month the tethering app will be available. Check! There will be people to invest let's say 12K USD in a 645D + D FA 90 + tethering allowing them a foothold in the studio market;
- 2013 - Pentax launches a new camera with a bigger sensor along with 3 new zooms and attracts new customers;
- 2014 the real aspirational lens for 645 system could be a new longer, faster lens (on the lines of the 105/2.4 they did decades a go for the P67 system) to go with both sensor sizes. I bet they could sell a lot more then than now.
I think it makes sense for them to build the pedestal first and bring on the statues later. ;D
Radu
Hi Radu,
I find this an awkward statement.
For a lot of people the HC 100mm/f2.2 is why they stick with Hasselblad or why they find/found it very difficult to ditch Hasselblad. It is a fabulous lens.
If Pentax had a similar lens I am sure even more people would consider the Pentax platform.
I wouldn't underestimate the power of attraction that one lens can have for a camera platform
Best, Joris.
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Yes Doug this is correct, no more new primes until 2014 at least. The difference from last year is that one can buy all the other FA 645 lenses from this chart in Europe (a lot of them over the counter starting under 500 Euro and some more expensive in a few weeks from the order). Some of those are almost universally celebrated (FA 120/4 Macro e.g.) and some almost universally panned as dogs (FA 45/2.8 e.g.).
Regards,
Radu
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So based on that roadmap there will be no new digital autofocus primes before 2014?
...
90 / 2.8 (scheduled 2012)
Doug,
I do not understand your phrasing ... the 90/2.8 is an autofocus prime to be released between now and 2014, isn't it? Or is your point that Pentax is complementing its existing 645 prime lenses with more zooms than most MF systems?
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Hi Radu,
I find this an awkward statement.
For a lot of people the HC 100mm/f2.2 is why they stick with Hasselblad or why they find/found it very difficult to ditch Hasselblad. It is a fabulous lens.
If Pentax had a similar lens I am sure even more people would consider the Pentax platform.
I wouldn't underestimate the power of attraction that one lens can have for a camera platform
Best, Joris.
That was my point exactly.
And I don't buy this "it's too difficult and costly to make one" argument at all. Hasselblad had to build their 100/2.2 around a leaf-shutter, a bottleneck which demands extra entrance pupil magnification. Pentax would have no such issue to deal with. We're talking about a standard 7-element double-Gauss design; they've been done over and over for decades, by every SLR manufacturer, including Pentax themselves.
Ray
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Except if it is not a "standard 7-element double-Gauss design" much less a 6 element like Hasselblad. And knowing Pentax' latter designs I am sure it is at least a 8 or 9 element for better corrected optics. Like I said diversity is good and you should buy the Hasselblad for the extra dof control and speed instead of expecting Pentax to make a (presumably cheaper) replica of it. Besides is there a purpose in knocking down a lens without knowing anything about it? Let's see the optical properties, the size and price before dismissing it.
Regards,
Radu
That was my point exactly.
And I don't buy this "it's too difficult and costly to make one" argument at all. Hasselblad had to build their 100/2.2 around a leaf-shutter, a bottleneck which demands extra entrance pupil magnification. Pentax would have no such issue to deal with. We're talking about a standard 7-element double-Gauss design; they've been done over and over for decades, by every SLR manufacturer, including Pentax themselves.
Ray
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Perhaps Pentax will surprise us with a fast portrait lens in the future?
I am very happy with the new line-up. Pentax will gain following if they offer a reasonably priced lens after the exclusive 25mm.
Also the new zoom line-up may be more affordable than the first version. Just hope that their 33-55mm replacement (that's how it looks like) will have less distortion. Hopefully each of the new zooms is in the $2K price range (rather than $5K), placing a top notch medium format system within the reach of mortals.
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I am sure it will be good value. A 2.2 or 2.5 would have been better, but at the end of the day, not that much difference.
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Has anyone heard the MSRP on the new 90 2.8? The old Pentax was a value price leader on glass. The price on the new 25mm is painful. I too have been waiting to pull the trigger on a 645D. I have been holding onto three FA lenses waiting to see what the new direction will be.
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Hopefully each of the new zooms is in the $2K price range (rather than $5K), placing a top notch medium format system within the reach of mortals.
$2k would be pretty amazing: Hasselblad ($7,595 and $5,595), Rollei Hy6 ($7,354) and Phase One ($4,490)
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I am afraid you are likely to be correct :-[. $2K times for a medium format zoom may be over. Even though the current 150-300mm that is pretty good for digital is in that range. I guess anything between $2 and $4K would be a winner. Pentax's change in range suggests the new lenses will be less costly and more portable.
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The tethering software launch in Japan was postponed from 20th of February to 26th of March so I suppose this means an April launch date in North America and Europe. The reason quoted is that further testing is needed.
http://www.pentax.jp/japan/news/announce/20120218.html
Regards,
Radu
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It would be great if Pentax got new 645 lenses on the shelves, it's one thing to announce but another to supply.
The 25mm f/4 was announced at CP+ a year ago but is still not available.
It's surely a little embarassing for them to announce another lense at this CP+ with the previous announcement still in fairy land.
I have had my 25mm since lsat fall. It is available just in high demand.
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(http://www.gouptoday.info/avatar1.jpg)Thanks for the links ::)
You are welcome! :)
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It would be great if Pentax got new 645 lenses on the shelves, it's one thing to announce but another to supply.
The 25mm f/4 was announced at CP+ a year ago but is still not available.
It's surely a little embarassing for them to announce another lense at this CP+ with the previous announcement still in fairy land.
The "problem" with Pentax is that they are very Japan centric (see the initial Japan only launch of the 645D itself). The 25mm is widely available in Japan (e.g. Amazon Japan: http://www.amazon.co.jp/PENTAX-ケース・フィルター付-DFA645-25MM-F4/dp/B004MUIHS6/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1315063137&sr=1-6 and countless other shops) and can be imported via specialized sites such as: www.whiterabbitexpress.com for about 4500-4700 USD. Again, like they did with the camera they will probably start to send lenses out of Asia as soon as they meet the local demand.
Regards,
Radu
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So it's 90/2.8...what a missed opportunity to make a really fast short tele.
Leica (75/2.5) and Hasselblad (100/2.2) must be smiling at this news...and Phase/Mamiya and Contax users still have their old 80/1.9 and 80/2 lenses...
How could the company which gave us the 105/2.4 for the big 6x7 format, baulk at making a 90mm faster than f2.8 for the sub-645 format?
Ray
You forgot to mention the best of them all.... Carl Zeiss 110mm F2
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You forgot to mention the best of them all.... Carl Zeiss 110mm F2
Welcome to LuLa, Fred.
Yes, I did indeed miss the legendary 110/2 - a lens which is definitely on my "get it someday" list. You can adapt it onto the Pentax, Mamiya and Contax 645s - but I was thinking of lenses made for the "native" MFD mounts. IIRC, there are insurmountable issues in trying to get a DB to work on a 2000/200 series Hasselblad? - no way for the camera or lens to trigger the back to take a shot. Shame really, as a fully loaded 203 or 205 looks like a really nice machine.
Actually I just remembered, there's also the Rollei version of the 110/2, which works on the Hy6/AFi - a la Graham Mitchell.
Ray