Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: sanzari on June 04, 2011, 07:41:48 pm
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I was at a local dealer today looking at medium format. Suddenly an H1 was sitting there with an 80mm HC lens and a phase one P20 back.
I was sorely tempted. I have been looking to get on the MF ladder but running Nikon D3s it seemed too much of an tretch as my pro work needs DSLR but my personal work would love MF fornresolution quality etc.
So the price. It well used but working £3450. Is that too much good bad etc. The thing is i rented it for 2 weeks to really drive it. But looking at reviews and forums am I wasting money. Luminous review says it will print 13x13 ??!!! my Nikon does wonderful 20x16 now. I thought MF was betterr?
Batteries chartering. Day1 tomorrow but would love to know am I about to buy a pup or a star?
Thanks all. T
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I'm definitely not the most knowledgable here, but I've read quite a few comments about the P20 being barely Medium Format as far as sensor size. If I had a D3s I definitely wouldn't buy a P20 back. but that's just me. Especially since you said you've tested it I would figure you ran a side by side? Anyway I'd hold out for something 33MP or better, or save that cash and buy some new nikon gear or spend it on business platform etc!
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Hello,
Personally I wouldn't by this camera kit.
I would use the money on the next generation Nikon camera. I think the new Nikon D4x is going to be around 36/38 pixels. As you already have invested in Nikon gear it seem unnecessary to me to start spending money on another system which is looking very tried.
IMO
Simon
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If you love the camera and you like the files, why wouldnt you buy it. I have a 50Mp, a 39Mp MS and several 22Mp backs but the one i really love to use most of the time are the Kodak 16Mp Proback( defenitely the worst back ever made according to most people) and my 384 without LCD, only histogram on it. It is not because the back is a bit older that physics about MF lenses and use have changed. The great feeling of working with a square format remains unchanged now and in 10 years. The feeling of that Phase file is totally other than a nikon file, Hassie lenses are totally other than nikon lenses and so on. Why is everybody so fixated at megapixel and latest stuff: every back has his merits, even a proback or a phase one scanback. They all are tools to obtain a certain look, style of photography. And if you feel you do, as i do, get a good feeling with working with a 36/36mm back: go ahead. ;) :)
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Thank you for a balanced view. So far I have not purchased rather rented. I am learning the camera as the back is simple enough.
First 5 images show lovely detail in hair and yes I like the square format. Actually my style is often to stitch 2 images.
I guess still trying to work on the focus recompose On the H1 coverted to H2.
The technology seems to be reliable but at the price the P30 seems to be a £5k jump up.
Anyway look forward to more comments and views.
It's currently an expense.
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I would recommend trying to get a "full frame" DB if you're going to buy one, and for that price you should be able to find one. I was considering selling my P25 recently, but then changed my mind after seeing the files again. They're just absolutely gorgeous, and they blow away the results you get from canikon. Don't get me wrong, you'll probably want both types of cameras depending on what kind of photography you do, but there's no doubt that DBs win in the image quality dept. hands down.
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Deeply ignorant question. A full frame sensor. I thought they were all crop except P45 which is £3500 or is the P25 considered full frame. Thanks again
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Deeply ignorant question. A full frame sensor. I thought they were all crop except P45 which is £3500 or is the P25 considered full frame. Thanks again
P25 and P45 have the same size sensor, that's why the P25 was/is more expensive than the P30.
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Ah I see.
So basically forget the P20 unless I want to keep the square format and look for a P25 instead.
Sadly I think this is currently around £9k secondhand? Which is over budget given I need to buy the camera and lens also.
Still deciding if mamyia or Hassey is the way to go. And if AFD III beats the Hassey.
I normally am so decisive about spending. LOL
Thanks for your quick thoughts. Need to search more P25 options I guess whilst testing the P20.
Tony
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I shoot a H1/P30+ combination. For me it was the ideal entry point about 1.5 years ago. I paid $10K for the refurbished P30+ back and about $1.5K for an H1 film camera kit. I personally have not found a need yet for anything more than 30MP. If I were to enter now I would probably be looking at the H4D-31. The H4D-31 goes for $14K in the US, lens included. You get a better body, things like True Focus and you can use the HCD lenses which you can't with the H1. The nice thing though with the H1 is that you can still shoot film and it is very easy to pick up spare bodies.
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Ah I see.
So basically forget the P20 unless I want to keep the square format and look for a P25 instead.
Sadly I think this is currently around £9k secondhand? Which is over budget given I need to buy the camera and lens also.
Still deciding if mamyia or Hassey is the way to go. And if AFD III beats the Hassey.
I normally am so decisive about spending. LOL
Thanks for your quick thoughts. Need to search more P25 options I guess whilst testing the P20.
Tony
Yes, I would go for a P25, the size of the chip is more important than the extra 8MP of the P30 in my book, and you should be able to find one around £4500 with some patience I'd think. The price I had set mine to before I decided to keep it was 4600 euro, including a 645FD and 80mm lens. A P45 on the other hand would run you something like the number you mentioned.
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No mamiya camera beats a H1, not even a Phase One DF camera. The H1 still is the very best MF body, next to the H4d body.
As for lenses, second hand HC lenses do not cost more than the Phase one Schneider ones, most of the time they are even cheaper. I would get a P20+: great back, cheap and good. If i had some more money i deffinetely would go for a H3dII-31 or CF back on a H1.
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No mamiya camera beats a H1, not even a Phase One DF camera.
I would be wary of taking the advice of anyone making this kind of blanket statement. It all depends on your needs and priorities. I think both Hasselblad and Mamiya make great cameras, but naturally they could improve on them in many ways. I for example appreciate the focal plane shutter with the option of using leaf shutters that the Mamiya offers, I also appreciate the lower weight and the option of being able to use the DB on an rz67 if I want. I suggest you try the different cameras and decide for yourself. You might also want to try the software Phocus vs. Capture1.
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Thanks again to all. Peter is the P20+ the same as P20 ?? I guess I could look it up but as I am typing anyhow I think that the original goal was an HD4-31, but I love PhaseOne upgrade paths and potential if I earn money from this back as I do my Nikon's.
Of course, I love the idea the H1 is better than a Mamiya DF !!!! But Truefocus is nice, however stuck with Hasselblad and no upgrade but I guess its like Mac or Windows, one proprietary environment to another.
amsp - I will seriously consider the P25 look around, and of course a P30+, but alas it may be a stretch over the £3450 I am being offered the current piece for.
I really really appreciate the comments, I have been monitoring for a while the forum, and dont want to be a taker, but many of the posts are now in IQ country so feel a little behind the times and cheap , but the resource here is excellent, and very dedicated which I think will stand me in good sted longer term.
I may have a chat to the likes of DTEK or a Hassey resellers, and get a view on the market and postiion. When I tried some MF resellers last year, they all told me life is good, discounts don't exist and they can never get enough hardware. !!! What recession.
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Maybe you are right, i was a bit hefty on this ;)... but i really tried hard to get used to the Mamiya DF with P40 and with my CF39 back. And Yes, the Schneider lenses are really good and perform as good as the Hassie ones and Yes, the 1/1600 sec is great if you need it. But no, the camera itself is really no match to an H1 body... and probably Mamiya/Phase soon will come up with the ultimate MF body that puts H4 in the shadow.
The P20+ is the one that makes longer exposures and i really enjoyed using that back. great for light painting and nightscenes.
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Sanzari,
I wouldn't get too focused on the upgrade path. It is mainly interesting if you buy the higher end backs. If you buy lower end backs it is only marginally interesting I find.
The upgrade from a P30+ to a P40+ eg. is $12,593 and from a P30+ to an IQ140 is $15,393.
Unless you have a very specific professional need which requires you to upgrade you will be hard-pressed to justify these numbers to yourself.
Also these prices can change over time, P30+ to P40+ was $10K last year, and although prices for both backs have gone down Phase raised the upgrade cost with $2.5K....
Best, Joris.
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oow Joris - what a great point.
I do figure beyond 30 million is unlikely until price changes. interesting how Pase upped the prices. I feel a little cartel forming, or at least the monopolistic activities are always good for a new entrant.
Hasselblad seems to play fairer but they are all corporates and we know how that works.
I continue to sniff, but did not see the upgrade increase coming down the path. Thanks good info
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I would be wary of taking the advice of anyone making this kind of blanket statement.
I agree by adding this.
I wouldn't buy or upgrade anything unless . . . I had a proven specific reason to do so, like a client demand (request), or my present equipment kept me from doing an image I want.
I've shot our p21+ and p30+ side by side and no client ever has or could tell the difference. In fact I have to look at the image exif to usually tell, except in the case of moire which usually the smaller backs moire a little more.
Though it goes against the current theme of this forum which is to always jump onto the next upgrade, I believe you're better off learning your equipment inside and out and spending your resource making images, not beta testing equipment.
We shot this image 9 months ago with a contax and p21+. This series has run everywhere in every size, even in a video and nobody ever asks what camera, or back, we use.
(http://ishotit.com/contax_p21.jpg)
IMO
BC
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Though it goes against the current theme of this forum which is to always jump onto the next upgrade, I believe you're better off learning your equipment inside and out and spending your resource making images, not beta testing equipment.
Agreed, the ones who are the most interested in upgrading to the latest and greatest all the time are usually the ones who are least capable in the actual image-making dept, and have the least actual need for it. This is painfully obvious especially on internet forums. However, I would like to add that using equipment that you enjoy using and that inspires you to create better work is also important, whatever that equipment might be.
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i love those working photographer moments like above bcooter !!! Thanks. It really sets the scene. The client currently is myself and my own dreams.
here is the holding site for some of the work I have been doing to share with you as a thanks and to let you know I do actually take pictures.
http://www.tthebrit.com/gallery1.html
this is the sort of stuff I am thinking for the MF - was all shot on D3s Nikon.
perhaps some of you can tell me how they may look with a P21+ or indeed P20 ? apart from square :-)
thanks again .
T
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i love those working photographer moments like above bcooter !!! Thanks. It really sets the scene. The client currently is myself and my own dreams.
here is the holding site for some of the work I have been doing to share with you as a thanks and to let you know I do actually take pictures.
http://www.tthebrit.com/gallery1.html
this is the sort of stuff I am thinking for the MF - was all shot on D3s Nikon.
perhaps some of you can tell me how they may look with a P21+ or indeed P20 ? apart from square :-)
thanks again .
T
For a lot of work, we are all our own client, even on paid gigs.
I like your work, somethings I would change, some not, but to really be different and standout, the camera would probably be only 10% of it, at that.
In a pre post production world, to offer a different look on far away, unique places takes a lot of effort.
Irving Penn did it in New Guinea with a traveling studio and natural light, (and of course an enormous amount of talent).
(http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/091007-Irving-Penn-bcol-5p.grid-6x2.jpg)
(http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/091007-Irving-Penn-hmed-5p.grid-6x2.jpg)
Had Mr. Penn been in the age of digital, I don't think a Canon, Nikon or IQ 1-billion eighty would a made a difference.
Now we're into the post production era of photography where the concept usually heavily relies on post production skills.
Not that it takes any less talent, or effort, it's just a different way of working.
I've shot something quite similar with the style your working, though worked the background to add to the sky and effect.
(http://russellrutherford.com/lifestyle/pictures/rr_life_0131.jpg)
This was shot with a 1d mark II (not even a 1ds) and ran in a book, across 1 and 2/3's pages. Nobody noticed what camera I used.
Your work is quite nice, with either more in the front or more in the back it would probably be nicer, though once again that's just personal opinion.
IMO
BC
P.S. please excuse the imsge I posted on the same page as Mr. Penn. I'm under no illusions I'm of that stature.
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To the OP:
I really like your work. If I were you, I'd forget medium format. If you want a bigger file, I'd get a D3x or a Leica M9. Just my opinion.
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To the OP:
I really like your work. If I were you, I'd forget medium format. If you want a bigger file, I'd get a D3x or a Leica M9. Just my opinion.
I tend to agree with all of these points. Also with regards to your work. Really nice.
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coming from this forum, i am very touched and thank you for your positive comments. I have just completed the second body of work and will be posting something a little more finessed as some point soon. I hope to run an exhibition to raise awareness for the region and the people and next year liekly running trips into the region with a few photographic surprises. this is charity work not commercial so finding it hard to justify the expense.
Spoke to DTEK today in the UK , very helpful. They told me to hang on for a P30 or P45 ( already noted above) and go for an DF Mamiya as the shutter on most others will not last they way I shoot.
So back to the drawing board I guess and 11 Grand UK to find. !!!
Ow dear. However in the mean time I plan to chat to my mate with an Leica M9 and see if Nikon will loan me a 3DX !!!
All advice still welcome, I and thanks again for the postive comments, its always nice to hear from peers.
T
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Bcooter,
I re-read the post and feel even more honoured having looked at your work. I will certainly take into account your comments of more foreground or background.
The images should speak for themselves and all were shot as portraits reflecting peoples jobs on the most part. I love you shot of the cabbage grower in Mexico or Bolivia it looks to me.
I believe your work has a more commercial feel meaning, it can be sold, this is what I feel my personal work lacks and I am trying to develop that area away from Weddings which I shoot under a separate company name.
I sadly agree with you that the world is going post production mad and your skill in Photoshop is now as important as seeing the light to get a differentiated look. The subjects are no longer the difference as the world is digital now and everything is photographed.
I will track you work and enjoy the news items I see. LA, Paris and NYC, what about London :-)
thanks for taking time to look.