Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: issa on April 11, 2011, 09:48:47 am
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Does any body have any technical details of upcoming schneider apo digitar 60 5.6,
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Funnily enough I was trying to research this lens on the same day you made your post. As far as I can tell there is only Schneider's original press release and basic specs on the Alpa and Cambo websites. Regardless, the IC is so compelling that I am considering ordering it untested and sight unseen.
Have you tried emailing Schneider? IME they are pretty good at replying to customer queries.
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Thks
I did eventually find their press release and some info on Alpa, I see that the filter thread is 95mm, which is on the large side for out in the filed, however a local dealer tells me it is 67mm, still no wiser, but I am tempetd with Large IC, fab as std lens and for creating Panos.
Funnily enough I was trying to research this lens on the same day you made your post. As far as I can tell there is only Schneider's original press release and basic specs on the Alpa and Cambo websites. Regardless, the IC is so compelling that I am considering ordering it untested and sight unseen.
Have you tried emailing Schneider? IME they are pretty good at replying to customer queries.
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MTF Data for schneider Apo Digitar XL 60 5.6. Apparently it will have Filter thread of 62mm and an Ic of 120. Very large, makes fab std lens on P65+ with good natural perspective and large IC for stitching
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Interesting. Thanks.
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Anyone have indicative pricing on this lens?
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Hi,
Linhof and Studio,based in the U.K., have this lens listed on their website @ £1865.00, plus VAT - due May 2011.
Cheers,
Mike.
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MTF Data for schneider Apo Digitar XL 60 5.6. Apparently it will have Filter thread of 62mm and an Ic of 120. Very large, makes fab std lens on P65+ with good natural perspective and large IC for stitching
According to the drawing on the Schneider web site the outside diameter of the front of the lens is 42mm, so I suspect that the filter thread is their standard 40.5mm.
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Linhof and Studio,based in the U.K., have this lens listed on their website @ £1865.00, plus VAT - due May 2011.
Thanks Mike. I forgot to mention that I was after a price for Cambo Wide mount. The Calumet website is pretty woeful when it comes to recently released gear.
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Thanks Mike. I forgot to mention that I was after a price for Cambo Wide mount. The Calumet website is pretty woeful when it comes to recently released gear.
We have received an enduser price from Cambo of $5099 USD and have been accepting orders for this lens. We are waiting on a firm delivery date . As soon as we have it I will let you know.
Lance
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Thanks Lance. I'm in Oz and just put in an order with my local dealer today.
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I was initially excited about this lens but on paper it seems apparently no sharper than the venerable 55mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital.
Unfortunately Rodenstock do not give an MTF diagram for the 55mm but they do for the 35mm and the 105mm from this series and I think it reasonable to guess an MTF somewhere between the two but (perhaps a bit closer to the 35mm) because of the similarities of lens design in the series.
They also give modulation at 30 and 15 lp/mm whereas Schneider do 20, 40, 60 lp/mm but we can easily draw a line between the 20 and the 40 lp/mm lines in the Schneider diagram and compare it with the 30 lp/mm line in the Rodenstock diagram.
Based on these assumptions the two lenses look rather similar in performance. Sharper in the centre at F8 but with increased fall-off of sharpness compared with F11.
Obviously proper testing would be the ultimate arbiter but this barely seems to be done with digital large-format lenses.
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I was initially excited about this lens but on paper it seems apparently no sharper than the venerable 55mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital.
But if the MTF chart suggests that it's no sharper than the Rodenstock, then doesn't that suggest that it's at least as good? ;)
Granted the Rodenstock has a bigger image circle than the Schneider (125mm vs 120mm), which as far as I know is one of the few Rodenstocks with a larger IC than a comparable Schneider.
Obviously proper testing would be the ultimate arbiter but this barely seems to be done with digital large-format lenses.
I know what you mean. Seems like we have to purchase these lenses on reputation and a little bit of faith. There is some information out there, but it's pretty disjointed and sometimes of questionable reliability. Given that these lenses are so expensive and in such limited circulation, it's not as if a single individual can order matching Rodenstocks and Schneiders on the internet, post test results on their blog and return the ones they don't like.
I ordered the Schneider 60mm because I had already decided on the 43mm XL and I have a completely non-justifiable personal preference for building a lens set from a single manufacturer.
Going off-topic for a bit, I'm a firm believer that we are spoiled for quality in this day and age. i.e. Today's equipment will generally perform acceptably well within it's own inherent limitations, unless defective. I reacquainted myself with one of my Atget books this weekend, and pixel peepers would have a heart attack looking at the "quality" of his images compared to what is achievable with today's equipment. Yet, Atget's reputation lives on and his work is still printed and in circulation because his work was truly great. And, yes, I acknowledge he was pushing the technical boundaries of the time (a constant theme in photography), but I would argue that that's not the primary reason his work has survived.
P.S. This may seem silly, but I think some of the Rodenstocks look more "serious" because of their size.
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According to the drawing on the Schneider web site the outside diameter of the front of the lens is 42mm, so I suspect that the filter thread is their standard 40.5mm.
I have had this confirmed by Schneider filter thread is 62mm abd IC 120. Price @£1800. will be placing an order next week. I think thois will be a kind of std lens with ample movements for view camera and stitching.
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But if the MTF chart suggests that it's no sharper than the Rodenstock, then doesn't that suggest that it's at least as good? ;)
The Rodenstock is £800 or $1300 cheaper.
For that price the Schneider should be markedly superior.
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The Rodenstock is £800 or $1300 cheaper.
For that price the Schneider should be markedly superior.
I agree, but other factors like distortion and real-world resolution come into play too, not just the theoretical MTF.
Plus, if we were to take the marketing hyperbole at face value (always a dangerous thing) then the new Schneider is meant to be optimised for the smaller pixel pitches in the latest DB's. In comparison, the Alpa website states that the Rodenstock 55mm is optimised for 9 down to 7.2/6.8 micron sensors (60MP sensors?).
Who knows whether any of this is remotely relevant in the real world? Like you said, some comparative testing would be nice to see.
Of course, whether we like it or not, the Schneider 60mm also commands a price premium for the mere fact that it is newer.
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I agree, but other factors like distortion and real-world resolution come into play too, not just the theoretical MTF.
Plus, if we were to take the marketing hyperbole at face value (always a dangerous thing) then the new Schneider is meant to be optimised for the smaller pixel pitches in the latest DB's. In comparison, the Alpa website states that the Rodenstock 55mm is optimised for 9 down to 7.2/6.8 micron sensors (60MP sensors?).
Distortion is likely comparable. The trade-off comes with the retro-focus HRWs.
Rodenstock have higher resolving lenses than the digital Sironars (the HR and HR-W series) and talk of lenses for specific pixel pitches makes some sense in that context. I can also confirm this from a fair bit of practical experience. However, I'm genuinely not sure what is going on with the Schneiders and can only go by their MTF diagrams which suggest that the new 60mm is not doing anything special compared with the Rodenstock 55mm, a much cheaper lens.
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Rodenstock have higher resolving lenses than the digital Sironars (the HR and HR-W series) and talk of lenses for specific pixel pitches makes some sense in that context. I can also confirm this from a fair bit of practical experience. However, I'm genuinely not sure what is going on with the Schneiders and can only go by their MTF diagrams which suggest that the new 60mm is not doing anything special compared with the Rodenstock 55mm, a much cheaper lens.
There had better be something special about the 60mm! :)
I'm still waiting for mine to arrive so obviously can't provide any insight on it's performance. A side-by-side comparison between the Rodenstock 55mm and Schneider 60mm would be interesting, but unlikely to happen.
I'd always assumed (again, a dangerous thing) that Schneider's newer lenses like the 43mm and 60mm were being designed to cope with smaller pixel pitches and compete with the Rodenstock HR's, hence the price tag.
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I'd always assumed (again, a dangerous thing) that Schneider's newer lenses like the 43mm and 60mm were being designed to cope with smaller pixel pitches and compete with the Rodenstock HR's, hence the price tag.
Linhof studio have confirmed that the 60mm is optimised for the newr 60 and 80 mp backs, which in practice will have better resolving power than the 55mm which is designed for larger pixel pitches.
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I just bought the 55mm apo-sironar digital and using it on a
p65 and printing on ZBE Chromira and even at f16 a 30x40 print looks super tack sharp,in
my opinion looks as good as 8x10 also bob Saliman at HP marking says this lens is good to 6 pixel resolve
which is p65s
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oh I failed yo say the 55mm is a f 4.5 and 125mm image circle, this is going to be the lens
for me doing 30x60 3 shot images
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I just bought the 55mm apo-sironar digital and using it on a p65 and printing on ZBE Chromira and even at f16 a 30x40 print looks super tack sharp,in my opinion looks as good as 8x10 also bob Saliman at HP marking says this lens is good to 6 pixel resolve which is p65s
There is a PDF on the Rodenstock website that states of the Apo-Sironar Digital series: "Resolving power is designed for a pixel pitch down to 9 μm." (see the bottom of the first page of the PDF)
http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Digital_Lenses_3-26__8236.pdf
I think that everyone's consensus of the Rodenstock 55mm is a prime example of real-world versus theoretical performance. Then again, I'd be fascinated to know whether we'll see any noticeable difference between the Rodenstock 55mm and new Schneider 60mm on an 80MP back.
By the way, I am NOT suggesting that Bob Salomon (who is very knowledgeable) is mistaken. For all I know Rodenstock could have improved production of the 55mm in some way to squeeze more performance out of the lens. A personal frustration is that Schneider and Rodenstock don't seem to be consistent with the descriptions and marketing of their lenses; e.g. restating their performance upwards over time but also inconsistently updating their literature.
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Bob Salomon also told me that all of the lens in the Apo-Sironar Digital line 35mm,45mm,55mm,105mm,135mm,150mm,180mm are
the same optical design as the w series lens.he also said that when the current stock ran out all of the above listed lens would
be listed w series lens this as he told me some months ago.
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Linhof studio have confirmed that the 60mm is optimised for the newr 60 and 80 mp backs, which in practice will have better resolving power than the 55mm which is designed for larger pixel pitches.
Please take a look at the MTF diagrams. I can't see the evidence for this claim at all.
Would love to be proved wrong.
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Bob Salomon also told me that all of the lens in the Apo-Sironar Digital line 35mm,45mm,55mm,105mm,135mm,150mm,180mm are
the same optical design as the w series lens.he also said that when the current stock ran out all of the above listed lens would
be listed w series lens this as he told me some months ago.
As I understand it, the W series lenses are complex, generally retro-focus designs with up to 14 elements. The Digital Apo-Sironar lenses are simpler near-symmetrical derivations of the non-digital Apo-Sironars. It would be very misleading if the Apo-Sironar Digitals as a whole were renamed in this way and it seems unlikely.
On the other hand, two of the Apo-Sironars, the 70mm and the 90mm were so renamed, apparently because they met the higher resolution criteria of the W line.
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As I understand it, the W series lenses are complex, generally retro-focus designs with up to 14 elements. The Digital Apo-Sironar lenses are simpler near-symmetrical derivations of the non-digital Apo-Sironars. It would be very misleading if the Apo-Sironar Digitals as a whole were renamed in this way and it seems unlikely.
On the other hand, two of the Apo-Sironars, the 70mm and the 90mm were so renamed, apparently because they met the higher resolution criteria of the W line.
+1. The Rodenstock PDF also confirms this (see the description of the HR-W series).
I had a good look at the MTF charts for the Schneider 60mm Apo-Digitar and Rodenstock 35mm Apo-Sironar and couldn't reach a conclusion. Admittedly, I'm not great at reading MTF charts so I'm just going to kick back and wait for my new 60mm to arrive.
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Could we compare the MTF of 60mm to ALPA AAA Apo Alpar 4.5/55 mm?
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/exclusive-alpa-lenses/alpa-aaa-apo-alpar-4_5-55-mm.html
At 40 LP/mm the new 60mm seems to be sharper in the center.
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Yes, that's useful. A bit more precise than my educated guesswork.
Looks like you get a bit more sharpness in the centre (around 5%) with roughly matching edges.
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i have 45, 55, 90, 120M, 135, 180 rodenstock digital lenses.
the 55 and the 90 are the best of the bunch... but the best quality is about F11
i suspect the new 60 to be better than the 55 at F5,6... but if you want to stitch and use the lense at F11-16... the 55 is a really good value for money !
it covers a 4x5 !... i've done it !
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Could we compare the MTF of 60mm to ALPA AAA Apo Alpar 4.5/55 mm?
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/exclusive-alpa-lenses/alpa-aaa-apo-alpar-4_5-55-mm.html
At 40 LP/mm the new 60mm seems to be sharper in the center.
Of course! Don't know why I didn't think of this. Thanks.
I have to agree with you and JdeV. Looks like 5.0% (maybe even up to 7.5%) improvement in the centre for 40lp/mm at f/11 and f/8. The outer edges look comparable. However, depending on where you read the edge of the IC for the Rodenstock curves, the Rodenstock edges could be marginally better.
Despite what I said earlier, now I'm curious to see the distortion and falloff charts for the Schneider.
i suspect the new 60 to be better than the 55 at F5,6... but if you want to stitch and use the lense at F11-16... the 55 is a really good value for money
IIRC Schneider claims the new 60mm is fully useable at f/5.6 (but of course with smaller IC and no movements). But IMO you'd have to be very selective when shooting this lens wide open since it appears that peak resolution drops off drastically from the centre at f/5.6.
The Rodenstock looks like very good value indeed.
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Beautiful lens by the way - huuuuge image circle.