Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Dick Roadnight on October 27, 2010, 04:51:27 pm
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Hi, all...
I think you all think I am a Hasselblad devotee, but I spoke to Edwin today, and I am actually considering buying a Sinar 86H. It would work with my Sinar P3 and my Hasselblad 555ELD and Flexbody?
The advantages over the Hasselblad CFV-50 seem to me to be:
Multi-shot
Good live video in bright sunlight
Disadvantages:
Tethered only
Compared to H4D-60, will not print 24" @ 360original camera pixels per print inch.
I like Phocus - does Capture One CaptureShop compare?
Much more money, by the time I have a full-blown Sinar system set up.
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Dick,
To be helpful though, the Sinar doesn't use Capture One. CaptureShop is the Sinar product and it's equivalent to software from about 8 years ago at best. Phocus is a far more sophisticated app. Sinar eXposure app is more featured than their CaptureShop but still crude at best to current software standards such as Lightroom, Phocus, Capture One and many others.
Thanks...
I hope to be doing a great deal of ambient daylight work with my 10M Manfrotto Agnoscope tripod, so good live view in bright sunlight would make a Sinar system worth considering.
I have a Sinar/Hasselblad V sys sliding back, and I thought I could buy a Hasselblad H4 adapter for it, but no, I would need a different sliding back... I have the adapter for a Sinar back 54... it came with the sliding back.
...but the cost of a Sinar system is unreal... the basic Sinar P3 is £3,500, but with the sliding back and the LC shutter it is nearer £10K... but I have already, over the years, bought most of this kit second hand.
Multi-shot might be the ultimate per pixel quality, but most of the pictures I take include clouds, trees, waves... and the Hasselblad 50 MS might be another option.
I had been thinking of getting a Hasselblad CF39 as an inexpensive backup digiback.
Is anyone using the latest version of CaptureShop?
...I have not ever upgraded any digital photographic kit... but the upgrade to the Hasselblad 60 was a planned part of the deal when I bought the 50.
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I had used CaptureShop and eXposure when I had a Sinar Hy6/eMotion 75LV. I really didn't like either product for my post processing work. At all. (That being said, the gentleman I sold that gear to told me how much he loves the Sinar workflow. I think he must be crazy, but it's different for everyone, of course).
You might try getting your hands on a few raw files from the 86H and walking them through CaptureShop and/or eXposure. My guess is you'll land pretty near where John said--these tools are not up to modern standards (at least they weren't the last time I used them).
HTH,
-Brad
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I thought the latest and greatest sinar backs pump out really great DNG files? Certainly the samples made available to me from the eSpirit back looked fantastic opened straight in Lightroom.
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Good point, Eric--I hope that is the case.
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Tethered only ? in 2010?
FAIL
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I thought the latest and greatest sinar backs pump out really great DNG files? Certainly the samples made available to me from the eSpirit back looked fantastic opened straight in Lightroom.
That was a thought I had - use Capture Shop to set the camera, and do the raw and post processing on the .dng files in Lightroom or PS.
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Tethered only ? in 2010?
FAIL
I think they see it mostly as a studio camera, but it would be nice to have the versatility of a back I can use as a spare, untethered on my Hassy V system or H system.
The temperature tolerance range is good on the 86H (-45 to +32 C), but I wonder how rain-proof it would be with the fan cooling?
In spite of fan cooling, I would have thought that the max exposure would have been longer than 32 seconds.
"Up to 13 Exposures per minute" would not appeal to some! It does do single shot... so you might have thought that they would quote frame rates for single and multi-shot.
The min ISO of 50 would help tame or eliminate sun light at 1/250th with an eShutter, at f8.
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Tethered only ? in 2010?
FAIL
This is a response that is not really necessary. There is a reason that this back is only tethered. It is meant to be used in studios and tethered only. Skipping on the LCD also has advantages and possibly improved image quality.
Now, it could not fit YOUR style of working in which case you need to buy something else however for still shooters this can provide the ultimate quality.
Yes, the software workflow is the weak link IMO.
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A simple question for Sinar back users:
Can you skip their software and shoot directly into Lightroom, for instance, via a hot folder, (obviously having the Sinar software open in the background to allow for the creation of the raw DNG file).
If so, can you give me a rough idea of timing for the image to appear in Lightroom after pressing the shutter? 5, 10 seconds?
Edward
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A simple question for Sinar back users:
Can you skip their software and shoot directly into Lightroom, for instance, via a hot folder, (obviously having the Sinar software open in the background to allow for the creation of the raw DNG file).
If so, can you give me a rough idea of timing for the image to appear in Lightroom after pressing the shutter? 5, 10 seconds?
Edward
Yes, SinarBack users, pleased tell us, what is your work-flow and throughput rate?
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Yes, SinarBack users, pleased tell us, what is your work-flow and throughput rate?
I almost always shoot tethered using the eXposure software, which captures the images in DNG format. Later I review the images in Lightroom because I prefer the selection process in that program. When in Lightroom I can export a web gallery if the client needs it or make my own selection. Then I export the selected images(s) as a TIF file from eXposure because the image quality seems best from the Sinar software, though LR3 seems to be a lot better than LR2 and I should redo a critical comparison to check which is better now.
As for the 'hot folder' question - I've never tried it. I don't see the need.
Sinar have told me that they have developed a new version of Captureshop which will work with all Sinar backs and will continue the DNG workflow and will replace eXposure. It's a beta version at the moment, and I haven't tried it yet.
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Thanks Graham.
Supposing that you were to like Lightroom 3 in preference to eXposure (and I like Lightroom a lot myself), couldn't you just shoot into a hot folder to open your dng directly into Lightroom as you shoot, thus practically eliminating the eXposure step?
(I realise that eXposure would need to be running in the background)
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Thanks Graham.
Supposing that you were to like Lightroom 3 in preference to eXposure (and I like Lightroom a lot myself), couldn't you just shoot into a hot folder to open your dng directly into Lightroom as you shoot, thus practically eliminating the eXposure step?
(I realise that eXposure would need to be running in the background)
What would be the advantage? When shooting, I just need to keep an eye on focus and exposure. eXposure has a good histogram and focus detail tool which is all I need, and I prefer the idea of running just one application while shooting to keep the Macbook running as fast as possible. eXposure also gives me a fast and large preview after each shot, which I'm not sure would even be possible with LR (as I said, I have never tried it, but would LR be able to detect the instant a new DNG is saved and open a preview of the latest shot?)
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I'm not sure if Lightroom would recognise when the DNG is completely loaded in the hotfolder and then immediately import it into Lightroom, my guess is that it does. It certainly does that with Leaf files very well.
The advantage is that Lightroom applies a preset as the file is imported. The preset can include sharpness, exposure, selective colours, white balance, saturation, noise removal, well, everything in Lightroom really, all at import time, so the image you see in the preview window (as big as you want, full screen even) looks exactly like you want it to look, with all the tweaks applied already.
Maybe eXposure can do that too?
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Maybe eXposure can do that too?
Yes, eXposure will apply your white balance, contrast, saturation settings, etc, to every file as it's shot. Sharpening and noise removal are not applied in previews, afaik, but that seems pointless anyway. Better to have the previews appear as fast as possible while shooting, imo. Maybe the best thing would be to see a video of how this works, and the timing.
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Well, that's good, although I do prefer to apply some sharpness at capture time as well as all the other tweaks, or at least have the choice.
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having read the workflow comments I thought to add some facts
the camera software I consider important for supporting the capture of the image anything else is processing and there are many very well developed programs- photoshop, lightroom, contenta etc for doing that task far better than any manufacturers software I am familiar with.
Using a sinar emotion 54lv capture rates of 1000/hour have been achieved directly to folders in DNG format for many months (this is production - not creative photography!)
The only camera system we found able to stand reliably without continuous repairs under this production load is using exclusively sinar components
the files are post processed directly from the captured DNG files without exporting
Edwin
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having read the workflow comments I thought to add some facts
Edwin
Thank you, Edwin.
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Like Graham I shoot tethered using eXposure. I have tried the hot/watched folder thing with LR, and it does work but there are a few idiosyncrasies. Sometimes LR will try to import a dng before eXposure has finished creating it, and give an error. LR has to be set to render a certain size preview to prevent this, I think either std or large, can't remember. The process only takes a few seconds after the image shows up in eXposure, so about 5 or 6 seconds in total after taking the shot.
The problem with using LR and a hot folder instead of dedicated tethered software is that you can't automatically apply the previous settings. You can in LR when shooting tethered with a dslr by selecting 'same as previous' in the tethered shooting setup dialog, but for some reason in the auto import settings there is no 'same as previous' option for the import 'develop' settings. It has to be done manually. Also there is no way to capture from the keyboard, and you can only quickly compare two images in LR. eXposure lets you quickly select and compare up to 4 which is a feature I use surprisingly often. The other thing I would like to see in LR is an overlay like in all MF software. If an art director wants to see his/her cover mask over the image, I can't do it in LR. I have tried mucking around with the identity plate in the print module, and it works to some degree, but isn't ideal.
Ben
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but for some reason in the auto import settings there is no 'same as previous' option for the import 'develop' settings. It has to be done manually.
Quite right: Option, Command, V to apply the previous setting. Something I do regularly.
I use a macro program called Quickeys that allows me to trigger from Lightroom (kind of). I've designated Return as the "shoot" key. The macro program very quickly switches from Lightroom to your regular import program (in the background) so the Lightroom window is all you see all the time, no flicker. Then, in a fraction of a second, back to Lightroom being active. Difficult to explain in words, but the actual effect is that it looks like you are actually shooting from Lightroom. You would never know that you are in fact shooting from the camera software running in the background.
I also use Quickeys to trigger the LiveView whilst in Lightroom, etc.
Additionally, I've designated two "delay release keys" set to 5 and 10 seconds, to allow me time to position momentary things (such as light shaders, or hand-held reflectors) in the shoot area, after I press the trigger, as I can't be relying on an assistant all the time and sometimes it's easy and quicker to do things yourself, without having to explain.
I use all of the above with the Leaf software and Lightroom working in unison, and I'm pretty sure it would work just as well with other software.
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Sounds like you've got it working pretty well. I like the sound of Quickeys.
Command, option, V is OK if you're sitting at the keyboard but to change it permanently for all the newly captured shots you have to go through the process of naming and saving a new develop preset with the current settings, then go to the auto import dialog and select that preset for new imports. Tedious and silly imho when they have the brilliant 'same as previous' setting for the tethered capture dialog. Why Adobe don't just put that into the auto import section as well is a mystery to me.
However I love the rest of LR and use it often with my Sinar files if I don't shoot tethered, although I find it hard to get the colour looking as natural as in eXposure or CaptureShop, even after creating a custom profile for LR and using the myriad of controls available to me. If the lighting is not mixed or I don't need highlight recovery or selective tools like individual colour sat/hue sliders etc, I usually just use eXposure.
Ben
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I was just at the Shoot-nyc.com event yesterday and saw hte 86H in action. The live view is truly in a class in itself. I know nothing else about the back, but when i saw that i was floored. Amazing.
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I was just at the Shoot-nyc.com event yesterday and saw the 86H in action. The live view is truly in a class in itself. I know nothing else about the back, but when i saw that i was floored. Amazing.
David Grover demonstrated Hasselblad/Phocus live view on the H4D-60 in London at the Hasselbuddy event the other day, and that was good... but it only works in low light conditions (you have to keep your modeling lights low) and I think, without a Neutral density filter, it does not work in sunlight.
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Additionally, I've designated two "delay release keys" set to 5 and 10 seconds, to allow me time to position momentary things
You could fire the shutter remotely with a pocket wizard or similar, could you not, and, when we get eShutters, it will be possible to fire the system with an iTouch or iPad?