Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: teddillard on December 09, 2009, 10:02:23 am
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Not really sure where this thread should go- (there seems to be some lighting discussion here), but we just put together a comparison of these two high-end kits. There's not a lot of lighting review going on, and the evaluations are tricky at best- we tried to apply a strategy of hands-on, real scenario shooting, rather than a lot of marketing hype that the manufacturers tend to get into.
We're working on a DynaLite kit review, too, compared to Profoto Acutes and the D1 kits, so it'd be great to hear what you guys think of the story- methodology, conclusions, etc. The power power kits are interesting, especially since nobody really seems to need that major 2400WS horsepower anymore.
Take a look, let me know what you think:
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...-Scoro-A4S.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html)
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As for 'Round 1: Minimum Duration', would you please tell me what that duration is for Profoto Pro8 and what the output is at that duration?
Minimum output<>Minimum Duration.
That review is not good.
Xin
Sorry, are you looking for the Guide Number at the minimum output and minimum duration settings?
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I have pro8. the shortest flash duration is at about 15Ws (3 stops): 1/8000 sec t0.1.
Yes, if you take a look at the spec battle page you can see those figures, claimed by the manufacturers-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...pec-Battle.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Spec-Battle.html)
I think if you read the review a little more completely, you'll see we're looking at what these specs actually mean- the way the numbers are measured by the manufacturers, the so-called t0.1, t0.5 spec, is at the very least a subject of dispute. We're trying to show what those specs actually look like in the photo at min. power as well as half-power.
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Not really sure where this thread should go- (there seems to be some lighting discussion here), but we just put together a comparison of these two high-end kits. There's not a lot of lighting review going on, and the evaluations are tricky at best- we tried to apply a strategy of hands-on, real scenario shooting, rather than a lot of marketing hype that the manufacturers tend to get into.
We're working on a DynaLite kit review, too, compared to Profoto Acutes and the D1 kits, so it'd be great to hear what you guys think of the story- methodology, conclusions, etc. The power power kits are interesting, especially since nobody really seems to need that major 2400WS horsepower anymore.
Take a look, let me know what you think:
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...-Scoro-A4S.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html)
Nice review. Thank you.
Too often we get wrapped up in camera vs. camera tests. It's refreshing to see some focus on lighting tools, especially at this level.
David
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That review is not good.
I think the review answers some valid questions. Perhaps not using expensive lab-testing equipment, the spinning disk solution to measuing duration (a most important and ofthen overlooked variable) is widely used and tells the tale.
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Ted,
That's one great, comprehensive review. Many thanks for putting it together.
Eric
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nice test.
a few minor errors in the scoro a4s specs you posted:
t.o5 is 1/24o - 1/12ooo, you posted t.o1 numbers.
in european 24o v net, the mod light is 65o w per head
power control range is 1o f-stops
in addition to ir receiver, it has a built in RFS radio receiver for triggering and power setting etc
it can dim the mod light during recharge, if needed.
btw: from usb interface on, the table is messed up a bit.
in germany,
the 3 outlet 32oows scoro a4s, replacing up to 3 generators, costs € 77oo.-
the 2 outlet 24oows pro8a, replacing 2 generators, costs 84oo.-
the equal output of both generators seems strange,
i might run a test myself.
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nice test.
a few minor errors in the scoro a4s specs you posted:
t.o5 is 1/24o - 1/12ooo, you posted t.o1 numbers.
in european 24o v net, the mod light is 65o w per head
power control range is 1o f-stops
in addition to ir receiver, it has a built in RFS radio receiver for triggering and power setting etc
it can dim the mod light during recharge, if needed.
btw: from usb interface on, the table is messed up a bit.
in germany,
the 3 outlet 32oows scoro a4s, replacing up to 3 generators, costs € 77oo.-
the 2 outlet 24oows pro8a, replacing 2 generators, costs 84oo.-
the equal output of both generators seems strange,
i might run a test myself.
hmmm. Checking those specs... thanks! For the record, they all came from the Broncolor published specs.
Yes, the equal output was a surprise to us too, leading to doublechecking the results.
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scoro a4s data sheet
http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_ds_scoroa4s_en.pdf (http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_ds_scoroa4s_en.pdf)
scoro a4s manual
http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_oi_scoro_en.pdf (http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_oi_scoro_en.pdf)
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Not really sure where this thread should go- (there seems to be some lighting discussion here), but we just put together a comparison of these two high-end kits. There's not a lot of lighting review going on, and the evaluations are tricky at best- we tried to apply a strategy of hands-on, real scenario shooting, rather than a lot of marketing hype that the manufacturers tend to get into.
We're working on a DynaLite kit review, too, compared to Profoto Acutes and the D1 kits, so it'd be great to hear what you guys think of the story- methodology, conclusions, etc. The power power kits are interesting, especially since nobody really seems to need that major 2400WS horsepower anymore.
Take a look, let me know what you think:
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...-Scoro-A4S.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html)
Hi
Thanks for your in depth review of these two packs. I have attached a shoot we did using these same packs. as a result we now rent the Profoto 8 Air when we are doing movement and prefer the light quality from Profoto. We did a shoot recently with a model running towards the camera with 2 packs & 4 heads with the watt second set beyween 60-100 for each head and we froze the action. I found it interesting that the Bron has the same output as the Profoto even though it is a 3200 ws pack.
Thanks Denis
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OP
Nicely done and thank you.
Given the $$ involved, importance and the long-term 'investment' we as photogs make/need to make in lighting hardware, it's an area of photography that is woefully 'under-tested'. Need to see more of these shoot-outs vs. 'yawn, yet another more MP, ISO___000 , depreciates like a rock off a cliff' pixel-peeping-in-a-coal-mine camera test.
Denis - great article and comments. Thanks. Would love to hear more on your thoughts of the two units used.
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OP
Nicely done and thank you.
Given the $$ involved, importance and the long-term 'investment' we as photogs make/need to make in lighting hardware, it's an area of photography that is woefully 'under-tested'. Need to see more of these shoot-outs vs. 'yawn, yet another more MP, ISO___000 , depreciates like a rock off a cliff' pixel-peeping-in-a-coal-mine camera test.
Denis - great article and comments. Thanks. Would love to hear more on your thoughts of the two units used.
Hi
Currently we own the Profoto acute 1200 with 3 heads plus 2 compacts since 2002. When we lived in NY I made the decision with Profoto over Bron due to the fact that all the studios in NYC have Profoto for rent. So on jobs if we needed extra equipment we could rent the Pro 6 packs & heads since we had speed rings plus other light fittings. I guess it was plug & play with one system. Being back in Sydney we have rented a lot of Bron equipment so I have become more familiar with them & we have mixed both Profoto along with Bron on many shoots. This test shoot between the Scoro & the 8 Air was a real eye opener for us. Not only was the flash duration similar ( we always rented Bron for that purpose prior to this test ), we both felt the light quality was better for our style with the Profoto. So we have been renting the Pro 8 air if we need to freeze action in the studio. For the test we used the same light shapers & found the light from the Bron was too harsh while the Profoto has sort of a glow almost painterly feel to it.
Cheers Denis
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Denis - thank you.
Just started the move away from Eli into Profoto myself starting with the AcuteB 600 with a 1200 kit on the horizon and I think it will be the start of a happy relationship.
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Denis - thank you.
Just started the move away from Eli into Profoto myself starting with the AcuteB 600 with a 1200 kit on the horizon and I think it will be the start of a happy relationship.
Hi We have been renting the D4 2400 packs as they work with acute heads, not good for flash duration but very easy to use with individual power control.
Denis
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That is what I mean, you should have not said 'Round 1: Minimum Duration', because you had not set each powerpack at their shortest flash duration. You review is actually 'Round 1: Minimum Output'.
Minimum output<>Minimum Duration.
Again, it is not a precise review.
Xin
Ah, I see. Actually, no, the tests were at Minimum Duration, just as we said (precisely). The power setting on the Profoto, for minimum duration is 3.1, which I mention later in the review.
We did not say, or intend, minimum power since that is not the minimum duration setting.
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For the test we used the same light shapers & found the light from the Bron was too harsh while the Profoto has sort of a glow almost painterly feel to it.
Clear glass dome over flash tube on one head and a frosted white dome over the flash tube on the other head. They produce different light qualities.
Put an old Comet CX head which has a frosted white glass dome over the tube into your comparison and you'll find it produces nearly identical light to the PF.
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I just glanced through the review and I'm wondering why you didn't test any twin tube heads ?
They're typically known to have the shortest flash duration.
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It is better to make it clear at the very beginning. See the context: Round 2: mid output. then it make the readers take it for granted that minimum duration is at the minimum output.
from my experience, the 99% photographers here in China do not know what the minimum duration is (most of them think it stands for the shortest cycling time) not mention where the minimum duration is.
Another wrong understanding towards the Broncolor powerpack is: You can set the flash duration at any output on the powerpack's menu. Funny!
delete
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It is better to make it clear at the very beginning. See the context: Round 2: mid output. then it make the readers take it for granted that minimum duration is at the minimum output.
Not a bad idea... we can add a little note to that section, thanks!
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I just glanced through the review and I'm wondering why you didn't test any twin tube heads ?
They're typically known to have the shortest flash duration.
Interesting point- neither of the manufacturers saw fit to mention the multi-tube heads in the testing discussions. Since duration was a critical issue, I can only assume that it didn't produce the shortest duration, but that's only a guess. I'll follow up and post the answers.
For the record, I'd also love to do a complete system survey too- heads, reflectors, remotes, all that stuff. Not enough hours in the day!
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D4 is nice looking kit.
Sadly, the nearest rental shop is about 12 hrs - or (the cost of) 1-2 days shipping both ways for any rental. Combine that with local store employees who ask YOU questions about the products THEY sell when you stop by and whose idea of high-end lighting are on-camera flash or no-name monolights, and it's strictly 'buy & try' in these parts. Actually, I'm being a bit unfair, one salesgirl at a local outlet had shot Profoto in school, loved them and was saving for her own kit (to be bought elsewhere) . Think it ranked as the most intelligent conversation I'd had in a local store in years.
Hi We have been renting the D4 2400 packs as they work with acute heads, not good for flash duration but very easy to use with individual power control.
Denis
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Another wrong understanding towards the Broncolor powerpack is: You can set the flash duration at any output on the powerpack's menu.
true. this was already possible with bron graphit, scoro is even improved.
Clear glass dome over flash tube on one head and a frosted white dome over the flash tube on the other head. They produce different light qualities.
exactly. bron offers clear and frosted glass domes for different styles.
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Can you achieve 3600Ws output at 1/8000 second on Bron Graphit?
No, I think the highest power output on the Grafit is like 75w/s for the shortest duration...I might be off.
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Some feedback:
"Basically, the shutter is opening, the flash is going off, and then the shutter closes before the flash is done firing. The flash continues to go off, but the shutter is closed for part of the “exposure.”)" The order is wrong. When you see the shutter in the shot, it is because the second curtain is already partly closed when the flash goes off.
"you get a strong shift in color, to blue. We were able to estimate it at around 1500K,". 1500° Kelvin is orange light, not blue.
It would be worth adding that turning the Color Control off on the Broncolor would not be suitable for mixed light scenarios. I'd also be interested to know how this affects the CRI of the light.
The spec table appears to contain several errors.
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Nice review. I'm not in the market for either pack and usually stick with Profoto when I rent just because I'm familiar with it. That said, I think there's benefits to the Bron system that weren't touched on. I took a workshop with Nadav Kander who uses Bron exclusively. He was adjusting the color temp and output of the modeling lights (if I recall correctly). He was quickly making adjustments that just weren't possible with Profoto. (He uses modeling lights mixed with strobes quite a bit so I can see where this is a big advantage for him.)
One thing that was a pain was that the sync cord on the Bron wasn't a standard RCA jack. We couldn't use Pocket Wizards since no one had thought to get whatever silly cord is necessary to fire the pack. Thankfully, we dug out a sync cord that the rental house had tossed in otherwise we'd have lost a shoot day.
John
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Interesting point- neither of the manufacturers saw fit to mention the multi-tube heads in the testing discussions. Since duration was a critical issue, I can only assume that it didn't produce the shortest duration, but that's only a guess. I'll follow up and post the answers.
For the record, I'd also love to do a complete system survey too- heads, reflectors, remotes, all that stuff. Not enough hours in the day!
From the Profoto site > Download > User Guides
Pro Twin Head: "When demands are even tougher, the Profoto ProTwin is available with two flash tubes that effectively double the performance. Used with a single generator, it can produce shorter flash durations by splitting half of the power to two flash tubes."
Acute 2 Twin Head: "The Acute2 twin is used to obtain even shorter flash duration, very quick recycling or to fire 4800 Ws out of one single head. An Acute2 twin has two flash tubes. As the flash duration is shorter at low power switch settings, and as only half of the desired power is used in each tube, consequently shorter flash duration is obtained.
If you require shorter flash duration and you for example need 1200 Ws, you connect the Acute2 twin to the B sockets on the Acute2 1200 generator and fire 600 Ws from each tube. The flash duration is shorter than if a standard Acute2 head is used. The flash duration at 1200 Ws with an Acute2 head is 1/560 while it is only 1/1000 with an Acute2 twin."
So they do mention it in the documentation.
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More pricise:
Another wrong understanding towards the Broncolor powerpack is: You can set ANY flash duration at ANY output on the powerpack's menu.
indeed, you can not flash the scoro with maximum power 32oo ws using the shortest duration of t o.1 1/8ooo sec (t o.5 1/12ooo sec), there are limitations.
nota bene: you can also preselect colour temperature, with some limitations of course.
for normal use, colour temperature control should be left switched on to get optimal coulor, at any output, on all 3 channels.
the test was made by people who obviously do not know, understand or like bron equipment.
unfortunately, it was published with all its errors.
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Yes, if you take a look at the spec battle page you can see those figures, claimed by the manufacturers-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...pec-Battle.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Spec-Battle.html)
I think if you read the review a little more completely, you'll see we're looking at what these specs actually mean- the way the numbers are measured by the manufacturers, the so-called t0.1, t0.5 spec, is at the very least a subject of dispute. We're trying to show what those specs actually look like in the photo at min. power as well as half-power.
Hi, interesting review. Only comparing specs is always difficult - interesting part is how does the image look like, so this test might help making decisions, though I think most people would consider a lot of facts, like kind of lightshapers, availibility of rent equipment, what brands are friends using etc.
I think there are a lot of advantages with the Scoro packs but I have to admit that I was disappointed comparing the flash duration at medium output. Comparing the packs should compare the same amount of flash energy, even if the profoto packs seem to be more "light efficient" with their lampbases. Measuring 1600J of power is 50% more energy than 1200J, that´s a lot regarding flash duration. I also noticed a color cast towards yellow with the bron packs tested at mid level, that made me think if it could be the color temp was not set to opt (the result would be longer flash duration). You can see a very consistent light output during the move of the wheel. I would have liked a more indept test with different color/flashduration settings on the scoro. You have a wide varity of setting options with this pack that were not tested or described. We also love the very low minimum output of only 3,3J which we indeed used a lot last week. But there are cons as well: Clicking down these menus to reach a simple function is a pain in the ... , but still very happy with the equipment.
Thanks for your review
Cheers Ulf
As somebody else already mentioned, bron offers frosted glass domes that make the light output very similar to profoto.
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From the Profoto site > Download > User Guides
Pro Twin Head: "When demands are even tougher, the Profoto ProTwin is available with two flash tubes that effectively double the performance. Used with a single generator, it can produce shorter flash durations by splitting half of the power to two flash tubes."
Acute 2 Twin Head: "The Acute2 twin is used to obtain even shorter flash duration, very quick recycling or to fire 4800 Ws out of one single head. An Acute2 twin has two flash tubes. As the flash duration is shorter at low power switch settings, and as only half of the desired power is used in each tube, consequently shorter flash duration is obtained.
If you require shorter flash duration and you for example need 1200 Ws, you connect the Acute2 twin to the B sockets on the Acute2 1200 generator and fire 600 Ws from each tube. The flash duration is shorter than if a standard Acute2 head is used. The flash duration at 1200 Ws with an Acute2 head is 1/560 while it is only 1/1000 with an Acute2 twin."
So they do mention it in the documentation.
Right- they're not saying the duration is shorter, just that you can get more power at the shortest duration...
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Right- they're not saying the duration is shorter, just that you can get more power at the shortest duration...
????
The flash duration will approx. be nearly half the time than using a single tube head at the same output. And that´s what they are saying.
Cheers, Ulf
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????
The flash duration will approx. be nearly half the time than using a single tube head at the same output. And that´s what they are saying.
Cheers, Ulf
(note to self: don't post after only one cup of coffee in the morning)
...this has me wondering why it wasn't suggested. I'll ask.
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Some feedback:
"Basically, the shutter is opening, the flash is going off, and then the shutter closes before the flash is done firing. The flash continues to go off, but the shutter is closed for part of the “exposure.”)" The order is wrong. When you see the shutter in the shot, it is because the second curtain is already partly closed when the flash goes off.
Fair enough, but do understand that was intended for someone with no understanding of flash sync as a one-paragraph introduction. Even mentioning focal plane shutters would have opened another few cans of worms... Thus the use of "basically".
"you get a strong shift in color, to blue. We were able to estimate it at around 1500K,". 1500° Kelvin is orange light, not blue.
I was referring to a 1500° shift- should probably change that to a -1500° shift I guess. And how the heck do you make the ° thing?
It would be worth adding that turning the Color Control off on the Broncolor would not be suitable for mixed light scenarios. I'd also be interested to know how this affects the CRI of the light.
Good point.
The spec table appears to contain several errors.
Reviewing it, thanks again.
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+1
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+1
This is silly. The Power output is set on your pack. If you set the pack to full power for example you will have 2400J of energy. You can fire this energy through a standard lampbase or through a twin lampbase. The light output will be the same - the flash duration will be approx. half the time. Period.
Another effect will be that each tube will only get half the power (here comes your math: 0,5+0,5=1) and are not used that heavy therefore. You can realise faster strobe series without stressing the tubes too much. We are using twin tube lampbases to achieve shorter flash duration and reduce tube ageing and are very happy with them.
Cheers, Ulf
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I use Profoto and am very happy with it.
I was always intrigued by Bron's lightformers, so I started to look into that system. Things like the satelites and the flooter are unique to bron. As i am doing mostly food photography, where my subjects wither under hot lights even faster and I have to control reflections in a very quick way it is necessary to be able to switch individual model lights on and off by the pack, not only by the head. that is not possible with the Scoros. once I rented a full Bron kit to do one shoot, and I sent my assistant literally running around the set to switch the individual model lights on and off. we decided afterwards that this was the deal breaker for us.
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Same applies for both Bron Twin heads, and Profoto. This is the main reason for owning Bron Twin heads, that and running 6100ws out of an A8 pack through one head, not done often, but handy never the less.
Jason.
This is silly. The Power output is set on your pack. If you set the pack to full power for example you will have 2400J of energy. You can fire this energy through a standard lampbase or through a twin lampbase. The light output will be the same - the flash duration will be approx. half the time. Period.
Another effect will be that each tube will only get half the power (here comes your math: 0,5+0,5=1) and are not used that heavy therefore. You can realise faster strobe series without stressing the tubes too much. We are using twin tube lampbases to achieve shorter flash duration and reduce tube ageing and are very happy with them.
Cheers, Ulf
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I use Profoto and am very happy with it.
I was always intrigued by Bron's lightformers, so I started to look into that system. Things like the satelites and the flooter are unique to bron. As i am doing mostly food photography, where my subjects wither under hot lights even faster and I have to control reflections in a very quick way it is necessary to be able to switch individual model lights on and off by the pack, not only by the head. that is not possible with the Scoros. once I rented a full Bron kit to do one shoot, and I sent my assistant literally running around the set to switch the individual model lights on and off. we decided afterwards that this was the deal breaker for us.
Broncolor's latest ringlight with modeling lamps and fan-cooling is a standout for me,
with how easily the grids and accessories attach;
and how it converts from being used on a camera to their Para umbrella (I only wish it came in a bi-tube version)
I would think any flashhead with frosted pyrex could be used with a Satellite.
Elinchrom started the large fresnel trend with their S35, and Profoto has their ProFresnel, so Broncolor's Flooter is not unique.
Every Broncolor flashhead I've used in the past 20+ years has a modeling lamp on/off switch.
It's the triangular piece sticking up from the housing in this photo:
(http://www.broncolor.com/_data/bc_pd_bild_03.jpg)
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another small error in the data comparison.
the broncolor scoro a4s has a range from 32oo ws down to 3 ws.
the profoto a8 has a range from 24oo ws down to 5 ws.
so,
the scoro covers a range of 10 aperture intervals = 11 f-numbers.
the a8 covers a range of 9 aperture intervals = 10 f-numbers.
example:
if you use f 1:1 for the lowest output on each generator (3 respective 5 ws),
the f stop of the profoto a8 at 24oo ws is f 1:22.
the f stop of the bron scoro at 32oo ws is f 1:32.
not that it really matters...
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(note to self: don't post after only one cup of coffee in the morning)
...this has me wondering why it wasn't suggested. I'll ask.
With all the noted errors and oversights in your review this has me wondering why bothered.
If you needed them to suggest testing twin heads you really don't have any business reviewing in the first place.
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With all the noted errors and oversights in your review this has me wondering why bothered.
If you needed them to suggest testing twin heads you really don't have any business reviewing in the first place.
Thanks, very kind.
FYI, I had the Product Managers for both systems working with me on both the systems, and the flash duration was one of our primary concentrations in the comparisons. Again, why this wasn't brought up, I'm not sure, but even if it had the reality of putting together a review on any product is an endless trail of "what-ifs". As you'll note, we elected to not address the light modeling accessories, a huge part of the decision to purchase into a system, for example. The best we could try to do, without making the piece enormous, was to try to at least address the system at the "out of the box" stage- as we did with reflector coverage patterns.
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...r-Coverage.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Power-and-Light-Output-Reflector-Coverage.html)
It's been correctly noted here that you can, in fact, add on domes (in that case) to make the Bron kit perform more like the Profoto. You can, theoretically, make any kit do whatever you need, but that would not make a very informative review. It's actually kind of interesting to me that nobody has mentioned the range of light modeling equipment between the two lines. I'm wondering if that is something people would like to see. Anybody?
My theory, for what it's worth, is that if the flash duration halves with multi-tube heads, then you can predict the duration comparison with a single tube head just fine, thank you. Although interesting, it doesn't tell you anything new about the comparisons. Even if they had brought it up, I'm not sure I would have seen fit to include it in the testing.
As far as errors and oversights- one of the challenges of this type of review is the distinct lack of standardization in published specs. Sinar calls Ws. Joules, for example. They measure duration in different ways. They both rate the system power in electrical output, not light output. Translating the published specs and catching every error was incredibly time consuming, and if we made errors, which I'm not yet convinced we did, it was not for lack of a lot of hard work. On the relatively simple issue of Automatic Voltage Switching, for example, in spite of the published specs we got into a week-long email exchange with 6 people from both camps confirming the facts. That one spec, alone. That's the kind of work that goes into any review like this...
Sorry for the long reply, now I have had adequate coffee...
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another small error in the data comparison.
the broncolor scoro a4s has a range from 32oo ws down to 3 ws.
the profoto a8 has a range from 24oo ws down to 5 ws.
so,
the scoro covers a range of 10 aperture intervals = 11 f-numbers.
the a8 covers a range of 9 aperture intervals = 10 f-numbers.
example:
if you use f 1:1 for the lowest output on each generator (3 respective 5 ws),
the f stop of the profoto a8 at 24oo ws is f 1:22.
the f stop of the bron scoro at 32oo ws is f 1:32.
not that it really matters...
Considering the light output we got at both the highest and the lowest power settings were identical for both systems, I'm not sure that's the case. That's one of the huge problems in rating backs by Ws, ("Joules")- it tells you only how much electrical power is coming out of the pack, not how much light is coming out of the head- so any conclusions about relative apertures is suspect at best. The way I've described it, it's like trying to compare how fast two cars go by looking at how much gas they use.
It does, actually, matter-
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Agree. The issue of bi-tube heads is of no consequence as it will not change the relative performance of Pack A vs Pack B. If you'll forgive a stupid analogy, adding 50hp to the engines of both a Ferrari X and and a Lambo Y won't change the relative performance specs between the two.
As for spec minutia, that's what the vendor website is for - and 1/2 the time they're either wrong, misleading, measured under ideal 'lab' conditions or at the very least at the spec 'sweet spot' of the system - a sweet spot that often no typical user would ever use. What I appreciate is the real life usage tests and hands-on qualitative commentary.
As far as I can tell you went into the test with an open mind and came out favoring the Profoto for reasons you discussed, based on criteria you thought important to you. If those criteria don't marry up to what someone else considers important, then they may favor the Bron - so be it. Everyone's criteria for the 'best' pack for them will vary. That's a good test IMHO. Enough of these "they're all perfect, just some more perfect than others' BS here's the re-worded company press packet 'reviews'.
You could have spent 6 weeks with multiple copies of both systems, with all the modifiers and heads they both make and tested every possible permutation and combination of 1001 variables under ideal lab conditions with 13 impartial observers with 2 doz Vogue covers, 6 Phd's and 250 yrs of studio experience under their collective belts and someone, somewhere, would call 'foul'. There is no winning for trying.
Was the test 'perfect' by everyone's definition? No. Could it have been made 'perfect' by everyone's definition? No. Has anyone yet done one better/more valuable (that I've seen)? No. Should you do more? Yes. Everyone and his Aunt does lens/body 'tests'. There's a nice niche open here.
Now, personally I think testers have masochistic tendencies, but that's just me ;>
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Personally I think testers have hidden masochistic tendencies, but that's just me ;>
Thanks, I appreciate it. Glad you found it helpful- we just got in the Dynalite and Profoto kits for testing, that's starting tomorrow, and the discussion here has been a great help.
As far as the tester's lot, nah, don't worry about us. I get to do what I always wanted to do when I sold the stuff, which was tell people what I really thought, (well, honestly, I always did that anyway, much to the dismay of my Sales Managers...) and I don't have to worry about actually selling the stuff.
Oh, there are some fun things too... 8 cameras, 40GB, 4 hours, and a really fun model? And I get paid for this?
http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/The-Shoot-D...s-and-40GB.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/The-Shoot-Diary--7-cameras--one-model--4-hours-and-40GB.html)
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Thanks, very kind.
FYI, I had the Product Managers for both systems working with me on both the systems, and the flash duration was one of our primary concentrations in the comparisons. Again, why this wasn't brought up, I'm not sure, but even if it had the reality of putting together a review on any product is an endless trail of "what-ifs". As you'll note, we elected to not address the light modeling accessories, a huge part of the decision to purchase into a system, for example. The best we could try to do, without making the piece enormous, was to try to at least address the system at the "out of the box" stage- as we did with reflector coverage patterns.
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...r-Coverage.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Power-and-Light-Output-Reflector-Coverage.html)
It's been correctly noted here that you can, in fact, add on domes (in that case) to make the Bron kit perform more like the Profoto. You can, theoretically, make any kit do whatever you need, but that would not make a very informative review. It's actually kind of interesting to me that nobody has mentioned the range of light modeling equipment between the two lines. I'm wondering if that is something people would like to see. Anybody?
My theory, for what it's worth, is that if the flash duration halves with multi-tube heads, then you can predict the duration comparison with a single tube head just fine, thank you. Although interesting, it doesn't tell you anything new about the comparisons. Even if they had brought it up, I'm not sure I would have seen fit to include it in the testing.
As far as errors and oversights- one of the challenges of this type of review is the distinct lack of standardization in published specs. Sinar calls Ws. Joules, for example. They measure duration in different ways. They both rate the system power in electrical output, not light output. Translating the published specs and catching every error was incredibly time consuming, and if we made errors, which I'm not yet convinced we did, it was not for lack of a lot of hard work. On the relatively simple issue of Automatic Voltage Switching, for example, in spite of the published specs we got into a week-long email exchange with 6 people from both camps confirming the facts. That one spec, alone. That's the kind of work that goes into any review like this...
Sorry for the long reply, now I have had adequate coffee...
Hi Ted,
I think you should not feel offended personally, we all know it´s a lot of work to make these tests and whatever is done would have been done in a different way by other people. (I would have done it a different way, too). So you can never do it right. Bron and Profoto users tend to be very emotional about "their" brands. Regarding the twin tube lampbases: Using these lampbases on both systems would have resulted in a shorter duration, but would not show any difference of the packs. It would have been more interesting to use the same head on the two packs (Here in Germany you can have lampbases, that are custom made for different manufacturers packs). Firing the electrical energy (WS = J) through the same tube would have really shown the difference between the packs. It´s just 0,5f-stops, and it is easy to imagine that a different shape or surface of a reflektor causes this difference. This is the reason, why all strobe manufacturers use the electrical energy in their specs.
Knowing strobe equipment very well, being familiar with bron equipment I found this review interesting, though it contained some mistakes. I would have liked an answer to my earlier post regarding the flash duration setting / color shift on the scoro medium power test if you can remember. Thanks again.
Cheers, Ulf
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Considering the light output we got at both the highest and the lowest power settings were identical for both systems, I'm not sure that's the case.
can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?
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can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?
if it would have been set to speed-mode the max power is reduced to 2400J, right? That could also be a reason for the same light-output. Man, there are a lot of variables.
Cheers, Ulf
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can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?
It was set to Speed mode in the duration tests, and the Speed mode was turned off for the power tests.
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if it would have been set to speed-mode the max power is reduced to 2400J, right? That could also be a reason for the same light-output. Man, there are a lot of variables.
Cheers, Ulf
that is what was thinking.
in standard mode with 32oo ws (=32oo joule), it should, in theory be 1/3 stop brighter than a 24oo ws generator.
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Hi Ted,
I think you should not feel offended personally...
I would have liked an answer to my earlier post regarding the flash duration setting / color shift on the scoro medium power test if you can remember. Thanks again.
Cheers, Ulf
Oh, not at all offended personally, sorry if it sounded that way... just trying to explain.
As far as your earlier question, my apologies, we had the Color Controls turned on for all but the short-duration testing. We also tested them at various power settings, with the CC on and off-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...onsistency.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Color-Exposure-Consistency.html)
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It was set to Speed mode in the duration tests...
speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.
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speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.
Not according to the Product Manager.
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Not according to the Product Manager.
indeed, he is right.
i was not aware of that feature.
10. Special functions
10.1 Speed key (17)
When the speed key is activated, the corresponding LED lights blue and the maximum
flash energy of A2 models is reduced from 1600 J to 1200 J, and the energy of A4
models is reduced from 3200 J to 2400 J. The flash duration t0.1 is also reduced. In
speed operation, the optimum colour temperature is fractionally colder, however,
consistent over the energy adjustment range.
http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_oi_scoro_en.pdf (http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_oi_scoro_en.pdf)
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speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.
Hi,
speed mode will not select the shortest flash duration, but makes kind of a compromise between correct lighting color and flash duration. It´s use is very comfortable but not short enough in many cases.
BTW, the color shift is extreme when set to shortest duration and very low power-setting, but with average power it´s not that much. If you only use Grafit / Scoro packs you can correct this light shift to blue with the greybalance setting of your cam anyway.
Yet another thing, sometimes you might want a longer flash duration, not freezing everything - you can set this with the Grafits / Scoros as well. These packs just give you more variations.
Cheers, Ulf
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deleted, double post
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If you only use Grafit / Scoro packs you can correct this light shift to blue with the greybalance setting of your cam anyway.
Cheers, Ulf
Funny, that's what the Bron folks told me too.
Be careful with that- there's a difference between color accuracy and color consistency- if it's not on target, but consistent, you can fix it and it makes only a slight difference in file quality. If it's inconsistent it has to be corrected file by file... then it's a problem.
The Bron on the minimum "CC off" settings were inaccurate as well as the most inconsistent.
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Oh, not at all offended personally, sorry if it sounded that way... just trying to explain.
As far as your earlier question, my apologies, we had the Color Controls turned on for all but the short-duration testing. We also tested them at various power settings, with the CC on and off-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...onsistency.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Color-Exposure-Consistency.html)
Hi Ted,
that was no answer to my question. In one of your last replies you told us, the setting was made in speed mode. This would result in a slightly blue colorshift, whereas the wheel looks really yellow. Therefore I was wondering, what settings were made during this tests. Hmmm, owning a Profoto lampbase adapted to bron I think I try to get hands on a Pro8 and compare myself.
Cheers, Ulf
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Funny, that's what the Bron folks told me too.
Be careful with that- there's a difference between color accuracy and color consistency- if it's not on target, but consistent, you can fix it and it makes only a slight difference in file quality. If it's inconsistent it has to be corrected file by file... then it's a problem.
The Bron on the minimum "CC off" settings were inaccurate as well as the most inconsistent.
Hi Ted,
we never experienced a problem with color consistency in our work - not in fashion, not in still photography, where we often make different lighted shots and compose them together). But we normaly only use one head with one pack.
Just to be right understood: You cannot switch off CC, nearest setting would be the LONGEST possible flash duration. With the grafits you had that channel 3 that could not be IGBT-switched off or color influenced. With the Scoro all three channels are switched off through IGBTs. To achieve a shorter flash duration (and color-shift towards blue) the pack is charged to to higher voltage and switched off earlier, this is an active control, which does not at all mean turn CC off. There will be tolerances, possibly more tolerances when using several heads with widely spread power setting? But as told before, concerning color consistency and accuracy we are very happy with the bron equipment.
Cheers, Ulf
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Hi Ted,
that was no answer to my question. In one of your last replies you told us, the setting was made in speed mode. This would result in a slightly blue colorshift, whereas the wheel looks really yellow. Therefore I was wondering, what settings were made during this tests. Hmmm, owning a Profoto lampbase adapted to bron I think I try to get hands on a Pro8 and compare myself.
Cheers, Ulf
Not sure what I'm missing. the CC controls were on, for all but the minimum duration tests, where I specify the CC was turned off. For all the duration testing the Speed control was on.
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Not sure what I'm missing. the CC controls were on, for all but the minimum duration tests, where I specify the CC was turned off. For all the duration testing the Speed control was on.
Never mind, I don´t want to create confusion. Thanks again.
Cheers, Ulf
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Never mind, I don´t want to create confusion. Thanks again.
Cheers, Ulf
Uh, I think I may get it now. On the Scoros packs, you do get the option to turn the CC off, in the menu. It says, "Color Control- OFF".
Maybe you haven't seen the newest ones? ...or am I still not understanding.
On the consistency issue, we were primarily concerned with "one head, one pack". The consistency I'm speaking of is flash-to-flash, simple repeated pops from the same setup, and measuring the variation. We tested in rapid succession, and also with several seconds between flashes.
I'm glad you're happy with the equipment. That's a lot of money to spend to be unhappy...
Thanks for your input!
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Uh, I think I may get it now. On the Scoros packs, you do get the option to turn the CC off, in the menu. It says, "Color Control- OFF".
Maybe you haven't seen the newest ones? ...or am I still not understanding.
On the consistency issue, we were primarily concerned with "one head, one pack". The consistency I'm speaking of is flash-to-flash, simple repeated pops from the same setup, and measuring the variation. We tested in rapid succession, and also with several seconds between flashes.
I'm glad you're happy with the equipment. That's a lot of money to spend to be unhappy...
Thanks for your input!
Hi Ted,
Ok, I´ll take a deeper look at the submenue tomorrow (did I mention I hate the menues of the scoro), but it is like I posted in post 67.
I´m curious, what the packs will do "CC switched off", will tell you tomorrow.
I have to admit, concerning the color consistency I was mainly speaking from our experience with the grafit packs (using them for a long time and still in use), we didn´t make an indeep color-test with the scoros, just mix them with the grafits and trusting that "improved color management" but never noticed any color differences yet. (But I understand what you are saying, and I´ll give it some extra attention now) We enjoy the additional extras of the scoro and don´t want to miss them.
Cheers, Ulf
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"(Here in Germany you can have lampbases, that are custom made for different manufacturers packs)" - this I REALLY like... Vendor name(s)?
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"(Here in Germany you can have lampbases, that are custom made for different manufacturers packs)" - this I REALLY like... Vendor name(s)?
That's been going on for years- back in the '80s I had Balcar heads rewired for my Speedo packs, because Balcar had many light modifiers that Speedo did not, but the Speedo packs were bulletproof. Not something I'd consider today, and as far as power and color consistency, a complete nightmare. Especially on a system that you've spent 10K on the pack alone... I doubt that you can come to any conclusions with this kind of modified system.
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(did I mention I hate the menues of the scoro),
Cheers, Ulf
No, but I certainly did in my review...
...nothing but sympathy for the assistant who's working with these things without any experience.
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...nothing but sympathy for the assistant who's working with these things without any experience.
assistants must know the equipment they are working with.
that is an important part of their job.
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That's been going on for years- back in the '80s I had Balcar heads rewired for my Speedo packs, because Balcar had many light modifiers that Speedo did not, but the Speedo packs were bulletproof. Not something I'd consider today, and as far as power and color consistency, a complete nightmare. Especially on a system that you've spent 10K on the pack alone... I doubt that you can come to any conclusions with this kind of modified system.
I cannot find the setting CC off, my scoros run software 37.03, have you got a newer firmware? I can only imagine that this is additional info on the display when set to min, reminding that the color will not stay on a specific level but will change with different power-setting.
Power and color consistency should be no problem with rewired heads. There might be a constant color-shift depending on which brand / tubes /packs you are using. Color consistency is coming from the pack. It can be risky though, e.g. never use a "speed" lampbase with the grafit / scoro, as this will kill the IGBT- board.
There are still some small companies left that custom make a lot of things like big fresnel spots or light boxes like Bläsing or Bacht, both based in Essen. They can be ordered matching your packs. These companies are working on a very high level, a there will be no doubt in any power / color issues.
Cheers, Ulf
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I cannot find the setting CC off, my scoros run software 37.03, have you got a newer firmware? I can only imagine that this is additional info on the display when set to min, reminding that the color will not stay on a specific level but will change with different power-setting.
Power and color consistency should be no problem with rewired heads. There might be a constant color-shift depending on which brand / tubes /packs you are using. Color consistency is coming from the pack. It can be risky though, e.g. never use a "speed" lampbase with the grafit / scoro, as this will kill the IGBT- board.
There are still some small companies left that custom make a lot of things like big fresnel spots or light boxes like Bläsing or Bacht, both based in Essen. They can be ordered matching your packs. These companies are working on a very high level, a there will be no doubt in any power / color issues.
Cheers, Ulf
I never heard of Bläsing, really intersting head and modifiers they have, do you know Ulf if they are made for Profoto. I Asked Hensel and Bron about Profoto head adapter to their generators but was told profoto didn't want to sell them the plugs?
thanks,
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I never heard of Bläsing, really intersting head and modifiers they have, do you know Ulf if they are made for Profoto. I Asked Hensel and Bron about Profoto head adapter to their generators but was told profoto didn't want to sell them the plugs?
thanks,
Hi Bernard,
I am sure they could do it, they won´t promote it though. You don´t get spare parts from Profoto? Hard to believe but possibly true. They might not want to sell huge quantities but should be able to deliver a few. I don´t think these plugs are made especially for Profoto you should be able to get them somewhere. Briese is using very similar plugs.
Bläsing products are very well made, going to last forever - but are very heavy.
Cheers, Ulf
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I've heard of some folks in US who will adapt heads, but getting concrete info seems difficult. Would be interesting to have an adapter (vs a re-wire) to be able to use a different manufacturer's pack in a pinch or for ___ and giggles.
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I've heard of some folks in US who will adapt heads, but getting concrete info seems difficult. Would be interesting to have an adapter (vs a re-wire) to be able to use a different manufacturer's pack in a pinch or for ___ and giggles.
Flash Clinic here in the USA does head conversions. They are very well regarded as far as I know, I owned a profoto acute ringflash that was converted to dynalite M connection and it worked flawlessly.
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I cannot find the setting CC off, my scoros run software 37.03, have you got a newer firmware?
Power and color consistency should be no problem with rewired heads. These companies are working on a very high level, a there will be no doubt in any power / color issues.
Cheers, Ulf
Not sure, on the version, Ulf. We no longer have the packs, but the control was certainly there. Normally I have almost a photographic memory of menus, and could tell you right where it is, in the case of the Bron menu, not so much. See above. Seriously, at a point when a consumer camera menu can handle a ton of choices so even my Mom could run it, these menus are an embarrassment.
You've got a lot of solid theory going there... I'd love to get my hands on them and do some actual testing. Want to ship 'em to Boston for me?
@AlDoori, re/assistants- see my post about the controls-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...-Interface.html (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Controls-Interface.html)
I don't know where you're working, but up here in Boston there are probably, well, zero assistants who have hands-on with these packs. My ideal assistant is someone who can learn to run anything quickly- MFDB to lighting, to how to drive the rental car- not someone who's been field trained on specific gear. In a followup post I had the opportunity to use the Profoto packs with my favorite assistant, actually, and it was his first time with that model- he was running it in about 30 sec, with no instruction.
Here's a quote from my post (http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/The-Shoot-Diary--Nikon-D5000-in-the-Studio--with-Profoto-Pro-8--.html):
Oh, did I mention we were using the Pro-8 lighting system courtesy of Profoto? It was funny- in the lighting review I talk about how important the controls are, and how an assistant needs to be able to figure it out at a glance. Here was my opportunity to see how an assistant, at first sight, was able to figure things out. It took Sam about 30 seconds.
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I've heard of some folks in US who will adapt heads, but getting concrete info seems difficult. Would be interesting to have an adapter (vs a re-wire) to be able to use a different manufacturer's pack in a pinch or for ___ and giggles.
Not that easy with adapters, in some cases you have a minor modification (of the trigger circuit) in the lampbase and rewiring.
Cheers, Ulf
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I just had a simply brilliant thought. In the shower, where I do all my best thinking. Some people sing, I think, what can I say?
All I need to run tests of color consistency in Imatest is a series of nice, well exposed shots in RAW of the ColorChecker. If you, Ulf, or anyone else wants to see how their head/pack combination tests out from flash to flash, you can do the shooting and I'll be happy to run the tests and post the results.
To standardize, here's what I'd like to get- for each head/pack combination.
Shoot 5 shots of the ColorChecker at minimum power
Shoot 5 at half-power
Shoot 5 at highest power
It's best if they're shot at the camera's minimum ISO, the frame is filled, but all the ColorChecker is included and not cropped. If you shoot RAW + JPEG that's even better. The target has to be lit evenly or the software will error out.
Zip the files, load them to somewhere I can get to them, and DM me with the info.
Sound like fun?
And yes, Ulf, I was thinking of you in the shower.
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And yes, Ulf, I was thinking of you in the shower.
Hmmm, may be I should stop posting here?
Cheers, Ulf
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Hmmm, may be I should stop posting here?
Cheers, Ulf
don't change the subject...
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Every Broncolor flashhead I've used in the past 20+ years has a modeling lamp on/off switch.
It's the triangular piece sticking up from the housing in this photo:
(http://www.broncolor.com/_data/bc_pd_bild_03.jpg)
that is true, but it cannot be switched on and off from the pack, which can be done with the profoto packs. I sometimes have four or more heads in use, so when i want to check which reflections belong to which head it is great to switch thme individuall off from the pack, which is usually close to me.
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Thanks much.
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that is true, but it cannot be switched on and off from the pack, which can be done with the profoto packs. I sometimes have four or more heads in use, so when i want to check which reflections belong to which head it is great to switch thme individuall off from the pack, which is usually close to me.
you can switch individual lamps on/off with all bron A generators since pulsoA from 1985.
on scoro, keys 7.1 7.2 7.3 switch mod light and flash tube on/off.
switching off the mod light only might be a better solution,
but the current system is certainly usefull to check reflections of each lamp as you descibe
[attachment=18643:scoro_top.jpg]
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you can switch individual lamps on/off with all bron A generators since pulsoA from 1985.
on scoro, keys 7.1 7.2 7.3 switch mod light and flash tube on/off.
switching off the mod light only might be a better solution,
but the current system is certainly usefull to check reflections of each lamp as you descibe
[attachment=18643:scoro_top.jpg]
Of course. It works perfectly. I don't need something else...
PdF (usual Broncolor user since 25 years)
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I just had a simply brilliant thought. In the shower, where I do all my best thinking. Some people sing, I think, what can I say?
All I need to run tests of color consistency in Imatest is a series of nice, well exposed shots in RAW of the ColorChecker. If you, Ulf, or anyone else wants to see how their head/pack combination tests out from flash to flash, you can do the shooting and I'll be happy to run the tests and post the results.
To standardize, here's what I'd like to get- for each head/pack combination.
Shoot 5 shots of the ColorChecker at minimum power
Shoot 5 at half-power
Shoot 5 at highest power
It's best if they're shot at the camera's minimum ISO, the frame is filled, but all the ColorChecker is included and not cropped. If you shoot RAW + JPEG that's even better. The target has to be lit evenly or the software will error out.
Zip the files, load them to somewhere I can get to them, and DM me with the info.
Sound like fun?
And yes, Ulf, I was thinking of you in the shower.
Nobody interested in doing this? Ulf? I scared you off?
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Nobody interested in doing this? Ulf? I scared you off?
Hi Ted,
not scared off, but probably a waste of time. I cannot see where this should lead to. You would bring in a lot more variables like shutter and aperture tolerances of a camera and want to state power consistency of these precise packs? I would suggest the use of the best test equipment for this kind of work instead, but IMO, you won´t experience color or power consistency problems with these packs in your daily work anyway.
Cheers, Ulf
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Hi Ted,
not scared off, but probably a waste of time. I cannot see where this should lead to. You would bring in a lot more variables like shutter and aperture tolerances of a camera and want to state power consistency of these precise packs? I would suggest the use of the best test equipment for this kind of work instead, but IMO, you won´t experience color or power consistency problems with these packs in your daily work anyway.
Cheers, Ulf
Well, OK... It would simply lead to anyone out there finding out how consistent their systems actually are. How do shutter and aperture tolerances come into play? Same camera, same head, same pack, 5 flashes in a row? The point is to see if each of the 5 exposures are identical.
I was mostly interested in seeing how your modified Profoto heads compare to your Bron heads- that would be a simple test with the same camera/lens.
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Well, OK... It would simply lead to anyone out there finding out how consistent their systems actually are. How do shutter and aperture tolerances come into play? Same camera, same head, same pack, 5 flashes in a row? The point is to see if each of the 5 exposures are identical.
I was mostly interested in seeing how your modified Profoto heads compare to your Bron heads- that would be a simple test with the same camera/lens.
I know what you like to see, but you assume that there will be no tolerances with your camera system during that 5 shots. Did you ever work with a DB sinar/copal shutter ;-) ? If so, you know what I mean. Even up to date cameras will vary from shot to shot, like the packs will slightly do. Concerning the different heads, like I posted earlier, it´s not the head it´s the pack that creates the differences. If I will find some time during the holidays I might do the testing, would do it in darkness without using a shutter and without touching the aperture. The greatest problem will be finding that color chart, I know I had one 10 years ago ;-))
Cheers, Ulf
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If you used a slow shutter speed, say longer than 1/100 second, shutter speed will have no effect on flash consistency because it is wide open before flash fires and still wide open after flash firing is complete. The only time shutter might have an effect on flash consistency is when shooting near max sync speed.
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If you used a slow shutter speed, say longer than 1/100 second, shutter speed will have no effect on flash consistency because it is wide open before flash fires and still wide open after flash firing is complete. The only time shutter might have an effect on flash consistency is when shooting near max sync speed.
Thanks for that, I was biting my tongue...
Shutter speed has no bearing whatsoever on the exposure if there is no ambient light. Aperture variations between lenses have no bearing on the exposure, either, if you're comparing the same camera/lens shot-to-shot.
That is the entire basis for our testing (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Color-Exposure-Consistency.html).
Anyway, the offer's still on, anyone want some real data on their systems, just DM me.
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this review compares the pro8a and the scoroA4S: a different conclusion
www.pdngearguide.com (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/reviews/e3i5bc95dcbd3315867d3f445dcb9e6b1d7?pn=1)
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this review compares the pro8a and the scoroA4S: a different conclusion
www.pdngearguide.com (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/reviews/e3i5bc95dcbd3315867d3f445dcb9e6b1d7?pn=1)
...yeah, I always like to read reviews that start with a "Buy It Now" button.
(and have no testing data... just sayin')
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Thanks for that, I was biting my tongue...
Shutter speed has no bearing whatsoever on the exposure if there is no ambient light. Aperture variations between lenses have no bearing on the exposure, either, if you're comparing the same camera/lens shot-to-shot.
That is the entire basis for our testing (http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Color-Exposure-Consistency.html).
Anyway, the offer's still on, anyone want some real data on their systems, just DM me.
Hi Ted, Hi Jonathan,
Ok guys, thanks for pointing out, BUT - I never talked about shutter speed, what I actually meant was shutter release and the following setting of the aperture in the lense from full open to the working aperture. This is a new mechanical setting done each new exposure, why do you assume there will be no tolerances from shot to shot alone through the camera?
(May I quote from your review: "There is variation from head to head and from channel to channel, but not more than what we’re seeing just from flash to flash, making it pretty difficult to come to any conclusions about where any variations are coming from.")
But regarding shutter speed (for the first time): It can have influence, too. It does not really matter if the shutter speed is near the max sync speed but if the whole flash duration fits in the time window. For example: Bron Scoro has a flash duration of 1/132s at max power (this is test series three) and can even be set down to 1/85s with other powersetting, so even using a leaf-shutter being able to sync 1/500s can "cut" some light when set to slow 1/100, which is far from the max snyc speed, OK? BTW, leaf shutter times are defined from the beginning of opening until complete closing, it´s not the time being full open, flash sync is given reaching full opening. Using radio-sync, especially with channel separation will add some delay to flash sync, making things even worse. For these reasons you can get a lot more light from a big pack, especially the older ones, if you use slower shutter speeds with leaf shutters. (Regarding the equal max. output of both systems: Which shutter speed did you use during your tests? To which measuring time was your flashmeter set or working with? ...)
FYI, color temp of my bron lampbase is 5500K, measured with FCC (non esoteric Camera/software measurement configuration) - and I am reading this result every pop. Just tried 10 times with setting 8.0, using Grafit packs. Color temp with Scoro is 5600K, opt. color (no different readings between the pops) or 5800K set to speed mode, giving constant color but NOT shortest flash duration. The Profoto system is supposed to be very close to that color, too. With your tools used you will probably find out daylight in Boston is around 4650K :-)
So, have fun, go on making your tests, but be careful with the results (and biting your tongue), nothing more to say.
Cheers, Ulf