Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: henrikfoto on July 08, 2009, 05:27:36 pm
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Has anyone tried this back yet?
I have tried to search for it, but haven´t found one single test or user experience on the net.
Has nobody bought it??
Isn´t this a bit strange?
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Has anyone tried this back yet?
I have tried to search for it, but haven´t found one single test or user experience on the net.
Has nobody bought it??
Isn´t this a bit strange?
I haven't been paying close attention but I don't recall it being released. Is it shipping?
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I haven't been paying close attention but I don't recall it being released. Is it shipping?
It has been out for months, afaik.
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Has anyone tried this back yet?
I have tried to search for it, but haven´t found one single test or user experience on the net.
Has nobody bought it??
Isn´t this a bit strange?
I've never seen one, even at Fotocare, which is the big Sinar stocked rental house in NYC. In fact, I've asked around and no one seems to have ever seen one this side of the Atlantic. I think its a myth, like a unicorn or mermaid. Looks great, from the specs anyway.
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I've never seen one, even at Fotocare, which is the big Sinar stocked rental house in NYC. In fact, I've asked around and no one seems to have ever seen one this side of the Atlantic. I think its a myth, like a unicorn or mermaid. Looks great, from the specs anyway.
Nobody makes products as elegant as Sinar-Bron, no single company in the world market's, communicates, or sells as bad as Sinar-Bron, if it is Sinar-Bron, because every time I read something on them it's about Sinar AG, Ltd. Germany, owned or in partnership with Jenoptik, or something that makes absolutely no sense to the buyer.
Case in point, at the end of last year I was going to purchase ten's of thousands of dollars of the Broncolor HMIs and no dealer could give me any real information, including Fotocare because Sinar was closed for weeks and Fotocare probably knows more about Sinar than anyone.
The moment I heard the HY6/Rollei was part of Sinar you knew they both were doomed, because at least in the U.S. finding out information about both of those companies is just impossible.
You'd have to be a Sinar hobbyist, historian to keep up and that's nuts in good times. In tough times it's suicide.
I've seen that M camera three times in dealers, sans digital back and not one sales person knew anything about it. I've also seen three or 4 hy6's (with digital backs) and never with the batteries charged.
I know photographers that love Sinar products and few if any rushed out to buy them, because the information wasn't really there or they just didn't have the faith that the cameras would be around in the future. You want to know why the HY6 failed. Nobody bought it, including the Rollei/Sinar/Jenoptik junkies. Now that the cameras sell for 1/2 price they might, but that is why F+H is boarded up.
In specialty camera equipment Sinar is not alone, because other than Hasselblad, all the specialty camera makers leave their buyers hanging or searching for information. Can anybody clearly tell us what is the point of the Leaf Phase partnership? I've read the press releases and I don't see anything in those announcements that would motivate anyone to buy anything.
I and other's keep reading that brand a is selling so well it's back ordered, or brand b will eventually be part of camera maker C and I just shake my head in confusion.
The marketing and samples of all of these cameras makes no sense because on one hand you have the dealers and reviewers shooting brick walls and trees showing how much better one new back is to the other, or on the flip side the manufacturers have over retouched, over cloned images that could have been shot will a cell phone, so all in all nothing really motivates the buyer.
None of this makes sense. Today there are more photographers than ever testing, trying new techniques, re-inventing themselves and makers and dealers are shooting images that do not resonate with the buyers.
Crazy.
BC
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TMARK,
the Sinarback eSprit 65 is not a myth: it is available and sold since december 2008.
Best regards,
Thierry
I think its a myth, like a unicorn or mermaid. Looks great, from the specs anyway.
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TMARK,
the Sinarback eSprit 65 is not a myth: it is available and sold since december 2008.
Best regards,
Thierry
I know you are not with the company anymore, but do you know if any were sold in the States? I've seen Sinar M cameras, which are cool, two Hy6 cameras, both 75's, but no 65.
Thanks,
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No, I honestly don't know, but I presume there are some.
Best regards,
Thierry
I know you are not with the company anymore, but do you know if any were sold in the States? I've seen Sinar M cameras, which are cool, two Hy6 cameras, both 75's, but no 65.
Thanks,
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I just got the message from Sinar that this back is being sold. However, they have decided not to make it in the Sinar M mount even though Sinar M is their only medium-format system after theis Hy6 is a closed chapter.
I have invested more than 30.000 euros into this system (without the back!) and can´t even access Sinars newest back.
This system is completely closed to other backs (only has to use Sinarbacks). The Sinar M has the worlds best lenses and a better AF than any other MF-system, and they don´t even care to support their own costumers with access to their newest backs??????????????????
First I bought the Sinarback 54M. I was told that a few weeks later the portable SAM-module would be on the market.
This never happened, and a lot of people were left with a completely non-portable solution and lost a lot of money in the upgrade.
Next I put all my money in a close to complete Sinar M system and were told I will be able to use all coming Sinarbacks on this camera. And now they decide not to make the Sinar m adapter for this back??? How long can these people play with their faithful costumers like this????
Sinar wanted to keep me from telling my story, but here it is. Think a long time before investing your money....
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I just got the message from Sinar that this back is being sold. However, they have decided not to make it in the Sinar M mount even though Sinar M is their only medium-format system after theis Hy6 is a closed chapter.
I have invested more than 30.000 euros into this system (without the back!) and can´t even access Sinars newest back.
This system is completely closed to other backs (only has to use Sinarbacks). The Sinar M has the worlds best lenses and a better AF than any other MF-system, and they don´t even care to support their own costumers with access to their newest backs??????????????????
First I bought the Sinarback 54M. I was told that a few weeks later the portable SAM-module would be on the market.
This never happened, and a lot of people were left with a completely non-portable solution and lost a lot of money in the upgrade.
Next I put all my money in a close to complete Sinar M system and were told I will be able to use all coming Sinarbacks on this camera. And now they decide not to make the Sinar m adapter for this back??? How long can these people play with their faithful costumers like this????
Sinar wanted to keep me from telling my story, but here it is. Think a long time before investing your money....
I'm sorry; I know this will sound self-serving but I am reading this at my neighboorhood bar and just can't believe I am understanding what is being said...
Sinar's back can't be used with Sinar's own MF M body??
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I'm sorry; I know this will sound self-serving but I am reading this at my neighboorhood bar and just can't believe I am understanding what is being said...
Sinar's back can't be used with Sinar's own MF M body??
Doug that is a naughty statement!
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I just got the message from Sinar that this back is being sold. However, they have decided not to make it in the Sinar M mount even though Sinar M is their only medium-format system after theis Hy6 is a closed chapter.
I have invested more than 30.000 euros into this system (without the back!) and can´t even access Sinars newest back.
This system is completely closed to other backs (only has to use Sinarbacks). The Sinar M has the worlds best lenses and a better AF than any other MF-system, and they don´t even care to support their own costumers with access to their newest backs??????????????????
First I bought the Sinarback 54M. I was told that a few weeks later the portable SAM-module would be on the market.
This never happened, and a lot of people were left with a completely non-portable solution and lost a lot of money in the upgrade.
Next I put all my money in a close to complete Sinar M system and were told I will be able to use all coming Sinarbacks on this camera. And now they decide not to make the Sinar m adapter for this back??? How long can these people play with their faithful costumers like this????
Sinar wanted to keep me from telling my story, but here it is. Think a long time before investing your money....
I use and love Sinar products but I'm sorry to hear that.
No excuses, Sinar is becoming or already is synonym for ignorance!!!
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The M Camera and the Hy6 are examples of the 2 different recent histories of Sinar.
The M camera system was designed and developed while Hans Carl Koch still owned the company and the program was started at a time when backs were still tethered only. Originally designed as a replacement for the Sinarcam 2, it was designed to serve as both a stand alone camera as well as a digital shutter for the view camera system. It was in development long before the 54M & SAM, let alone the Emotion backs and Jenoptik.
This was at a time where Digital was changing fast and furious (not that it isn't now ...) and many parts of it were obsolete before it even hit the street. Chips went from 24x36 to almost 645 and backs went from tethered only to portable hard drives to backs with CF cards. The 35mm Prism and Nikon Adapters wouldn't cover the 22mp back and quickly disappeared. The original grip was designed to power the camera, a back, and basically a mini computer in the SAM. Again no longer needed when the Emotion had its own battery.
It was technically well designed and does some things brilliantly. But it was also very cost prohibitive for the new reality of un-tethered digital. The perfect tool for the photographer who needed to shoot a view camera and wanted a modular system for other uses.
And then ownership changed ...... Jenoptik never seemed to be very interested in the M camera system. It remained part of the product line (probably because of existing stock), but was reduced to mainly just being a digital shutter for the P3. The driving force behind the M camera system was gone. Jenoptik was already in the beginning stages of the Hy6 and that was going to be their system of the future.
As for the eSprit 65LV, it should be able to be mounted to the M camera. It uses the same plates as the Emotion backs according to the www.sinar.ch website. The US catalog number (Different from the Swiss international numbers) is 94-6878 and sells for $1171.
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As for the eSprit 65LV, it should be able to be mounted to the M camera. It uses the same plates as the Emotion backs according to the www.sinar.ch website. The US catalog number (Different from the Swiss international numbers) is 94-6878 and sells for $1171.
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I have talked to Sinar about this. It needs the same physical adapter-plate, but the electronics have to be changed and they decided to "skip" that work for the Sinar M as they say.
Crazy???
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I have talked to Sinar about this. It needs the same physical adapter-plate, but the electronics have to be changed and they decided to "skip" that work for the Sinar M as they say.
Crazy???
Someone must have decided that the demand for that combination would be too low to justify the extra development. The most constructive thing you could do is tell them that they are missing out on a sale until they add M suport to the e65 firmware, and encourage others to do so as well. I do agree with you that in general a company's products should be made compatible with its other offerings.
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Someone must have decided that the demand for that combination would be too low to justify the extra development. The most constructive thing you could do is tell them that they are missing out on a sale until they add M suport to the e65 firmware, and encourage others to do so as well. I do agree with you that in general a company's products should be made compatible with its other offerings.
Graham,
Actually , I even ordered the eSprit , and only when I transferred the deposit I was told that I would not be able to use the eSprit on my Sinar-M.
Before that, in 2008, when I was discussing the 28mm with some Sinar people at the factory, I was told that the new eSprit would work with the new 28mm lens; I assumed that the M will be supported. Five months ago, when I was ordering the eSprit, the dealer was not aware that the M is not supported. I dot my money back. Then the dealer received the explanation that Sinar thought that there would be no sense to use the eSprit on the M because of the micro-lenses design. I guess that they still think about the M as being just a shutter for the p3. I was mostly interested to get a high ISO/ available light back for the AF use of my Sinar-M, and I am sure that there are some other M-users who are interested in the new back for the Reflex use.
Yevgeny
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Why would you want the eSprit if the eMotion 75 is a much better option for less $?
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Why would you want the eSprit if the eMotion 75 is a much better option for less $?
I thought so too. The only really nice advantage about the eSprit I see is the internal DNG/jpg and the large display (which is not to neglect) - but than the 75LV has a bigger sensor, no micro lenses and still good noise behavior, internal memory for less money.
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At 7500 Euro for the e75LV it's a no brainer!
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I thought so too. The only really nice advantage about the eSprit I see is the internal DNG/jpg and the large display (which is not to neglect) - but than the 75LV has a bigger sensor, no micro lenses and still good noise behavior, internal memory for less money.
I don´t think that is really the point. What back people choose is personal. The point here is: Sinar has made a very nice new back with a Kodak-ship a lot of people love and they do not make this available to some of their best costumers who uses their only current medium-format system. To me that is a clear sign that they don´t think their own medium-format system has a future.
This is suicide.. They show we can´t trust in what they are telling us when we buy into a very expensive system. How can we know what their next step will be? People want to know they invest in a system of the future, and that the investment you make will not suddenly be discontinued. This is really sad for Sinar and all of us who love their fantastic products...
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Why would you want the eSprit if the eMotion 75 is a much better option for less $?
two reasons:
1)We have several customers who rent the M and 54H or 75LV. They are experienced and have no problems with either CaptureShop or eXposure. And we have a couple young ocasional customers, they shoot their Canons/Nikons and they are unable to tame the Sinar workflow. They do not shoot tethered, they are used to shoot RAW+Jpeg and they usually rent the MF gear, when they have a budget. My daughter has to convert files and it is very time consuming. I was intending to use the eSprit 65LV for this type of a crowd.
2) Higher ISO.
Once I have upgraded my e75LV I am happy and almost lost all the interest in the eSprit ( for myself). If Leica s2 is OK and tested I think it will attract the new RAW and Jpeg photographers, the s2 is designed to fill this niche.
Yevgeny
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Sinar is indeed a naughty company - so many excellent backs and so many camera platforms - and the only criticism you can make is one back ( which IS poorly matched to the M camera) doesnt fit???..get real!!..if you were shooting Phase - you can use their 'wonderful' mamiya 645 body..or Hasselblad - their one body...come on lets give Sinar some credit for the excellence that they represent - relative to anyone else out there..for sure no company is perfect but to say that they are crazy or people should discount the whole product range over this one back incompatibility issue with one (now) very dated camera platform, on which you can use any number of Sinar backs - some balance is required...if you are so unhappy ditch your Sinar M gear - and buy whatever Phase One is offering in the same line - or umm hasselblad...or umm Leaf - what they offer nothing? wow how strange is that!!
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Sinar is indeed a naughty company - so many excellent backs and so many camera platforms - and the only criticism you can make is one back ( which IS poorly matched to the M camera) doesnt fit???..get real!!..if you were shooting Phase - you can use their 'wonderful' mamiya 645 body..or Hasselblad - their one body...come on lets give Sinar some credit for the excellence that they represent - relative to anyone else out there..for sure no company is perfect but to say that they are crazy or people should discount the whole product range over this one back incompatibility issue with one (now) very dated camera platform, on which you can use any number of Sinar backs - some balance is required...if you are so unhappy ditch your Sinar M gear - and buy whatever Phase One is offering in the same line - or umm hasselblad...or umm Leaf - what they offer nothing? wow how strange is that!!
If you have ever seen the used prices on the resent Sinarbacks you will understand how good people think these backs are. The only back which still are selling for a good price used is the 54H.
If I didn´t like the Sinar-products I wouldn´t care about these issues. I am just telling my storry and the things I think Sinar are doing very wrong. If you have a problem with that you don´t have
to talk in that negative tone. Maybe you are working for Sinar?....
Over the years Sinar has the reputation of being a quality-company, but I know many people who have felt badly treated by their arrogant way of being.
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If you have ever seen the used prices on the resent Sinarbacks you will understand how good people think these backs are. ....
Does this mean that pros like the esprit65 so much that nobody sells one? I havent seen any on the used market so far
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Does this mean that pros like the esprit65 so much that nobody sells one? I havent seen any on the used market so far
Yes, that must be the reason (ha-ha)
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If you have ever seen the used prices on the resent Sinarbacks you will understand how good people think these backs are. The only back which still are selling for a good price used is the 54H.
Please tell me where these bargain used backs are! I hardly ever see them for sale and never for a steal.
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Please tell me where these bargain used backs are! I hardly ever see them for sale and never for a steal.
I purchased 2 for 1 for less than the price of half the cost what you see on ebay or elsewhere privately.
mind you henrikphoto said "if you have EVER seen" you said "I hardly EVER see " the fact is they are not as popular as
Phase, Hasselblad others. So this is why you can't see them regularly as you would see Phase, others..
Now all of us who own even Sinar chewing gum can feel practical or sentimental but the fact remains, Sinar messed up and there are no excuses period!!!
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Please tell me where these bargain used backs are! I hardly ever see them for sale and never for a steal.
I have seen about 5-10 Emotion-backs for sale the last year. They are always very hard to sell with 0 or just a very few bids.
When they sell it´s for a much lower price than the similar backs from Phase or Hasselblad.
I think everyone who watches the used-marked can agree with me on this. This is nothing I am making up. It´s just they way the marked feels about these backs.
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If you have ever seen the used prices on the resent Sinarbacks you will understand how good people think these backs are. The only back which still are selling for a good price used is the 54H.
If I didn´t like the Sinar-products I wouldn´t care about these issues. I am just telling my storry and the things I think Sinar are doing very wrong. If you have a problem with that you don´t have
to talk in that negative tone. Maybe you are working for Sinar?....
Over the years Sinar has the reputation of being a quality-company, but I know many people who have felt badly treated by their arrogant way of being.
Internet forums are full of noise and exaggeration - as I said - no company is perfect but to suggest that Sinar is less capable than any other company is to ignore the substantive points I raised in my response to your rant. basically you are holding Sinar to higher benchmarks than may be reasonable and based on your own example - you critisize and write off a company because one back ( currently ) doesn't work on one camera. I can understand your frustraiton and for sure it is (perhaps) a silly ommission on their part ( to date). As for used prices - my friend every back depreciates very quickly - ebay and other anecdotal examples proves nothing about anything to anyone. As for working for Sinar - I can think of better ways to earn a living than working for any of these companies - or making photographs for anyone except myself. If Sinar is to be criticized - it is fair to say that they have been absolutely hopeless at marketing themselves and their capabilities and that their choice of dealers around many parts of the world has delivered nothing much to anyone and have certainly done no favours to Sinar. Personally I think this is the major issue the company has always had - poor marketing. Many of Sinar's problems would go away if they just opened up their cameras to any back.
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Internet forums are full of noise and exaggeration - as I said - no company is perfect but to suggest that Sinar is less capable than any other company is to ignore the substantive points I raised in my response to your rant. basically you are holding Sinar to higher benchmarks than may be reasonable and based on your own example - you critisize and write off a company because one back ( currently ) doesn't work on one camera. I can understand your frustraiton and for sure it is (perhaps) a silly ommission on their part ( to date). As for used prices - my friend every back depreciates very quickly - ebay and other anecdotal examples proves nothing about anything to anyone. As for working for Sinar - I can think of better ways to earn a living than working for any of these companies - or making photographs for anyone except myself. If Sinar is to be criticized - it is fair to say that they have been absolutely hopeless at marketing themselves and their capabilities and that their choice of dealers around many parts of the world has delivered nothing much to anyone and have certainly done no favours to Sinar. Personally I think this is the major issue the company has always had - poor marketing. Many of Sinar's problems would go away if they just opened up their cameras to any back.
I totally agree on this. Sinar normally makes great equipment. However after they were bought by Jenoptic I think their digital "thinking" has been very confusing and hard to understand. There is a lack of continuity and that makes their costumers nervous. How can they compete in this market when 90% of the market don´t even know they exist? You have to be very interested to even know they are coming out with new products. And when they don´t even care to please the few people who care enough to hunt for their products it´s going to be very hard to make it in the future.
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I have seen about 5-10 Emotion-backs for sale the last year. They are always very hard to sell with 0 or just a very few bids.
When they sell it´s for a much lower price than the similar backs from Phase or Hasselblad.
I think everyone who watches the used-marked can agree with me on this. This is nothing I am making up. It´s just they way the marked feels about these backs.
The used price is lower because the new price is lower. The Sinar backs are very good deals.
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"Due to the fact that the Sinarback eSprit 65 LV is equipped with so-called micro-lenses it is not well-suited to be used with a view camera or with the Sinar arTec.
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this is a quote from the information on the page where you can buy one of these camerabacks. buy sinar eSprit 65 LV here (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2151&cat=38)
This cameraback is not suitable (high enough quality?) for the M Camera and the eMotion is the appropiate cableless back or the 75 eVolution for Multishot operation on the M camera.
I have a waiting list of clients looking for second hand eMotion camerabacks.
Edwin
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The used price is lower because the new price is lower. The Sinar backs are very good deals.
Bingo! Apparently some people will complain about anything, including great prices
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The used price is lower because the new price is lower. The Sinar backs are very good deals.
No, the used Emotion backs have been low priced a long time before the new-prices dropped.
This is just wrong.
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"Due to the fact that the Sinarback eSprit 65 LV is equipped with so-called micro-lenses it is not well-suited to be used with a view camera or with the Sinar arTec.
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this is a quote from the information on the page where you can buy one of these camerabacks. buy sinar eSprit 65 LV here (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2151&cat=38)
This cameraback is not suitable (high enough quality?) for the M Camera and the eMotion is the appropiate cableless back or the 75 eVolution for Multishot operation on the M camera.
I have a waiting list of clients looking for second hand eMotion camerabacks.
Edwin
If you have a waiting list you can gladly buy mine. It is the Emotion 54 LV with all possible updates and very low usage. Like new.
Now it´s very interesting what you are willing to pay for one??
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No, the used Emotion backs have been low priced a long time before the new-prices dropped.
This is just wrong.
Perhaps you can give an example. I have only seen low prices recently. Where are you in the world?
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QUOTE (edwinb @ Jul 11 2009, 10:57 AM) *
"Due to the fact that the Sinarback eSprit 65 LV is equipped with so-called micro-lenses it is not well-suited to be used with a view camera or with the Sinar arTec.
"
this is a quote from the information on the page where you can buy one of these camerabacks. buy sinar eSprit 65 LV here biggrin.gif
This cameraback is not suitable (high enough quality?) for the M Camera and the eMotion is the appropiate cableless back or the 75 eVolution for Multishot operation on the M camera.
I have a waiting list of clients looking for second hand eMotion camerabacks.
Edwin
Don´t you want to make an offer for the Emotion 54 LV I have? You said you have a waiting list for these backs??
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No, the used Emotion backs have been low priced a long time before the new-prices dropped.
This is just wrong.
I have been interested in a 54lv some months agao and looked on ebay for some time and did not find a good deal there.
The same when I wanted to move from the 54 to a 75 (in Germany). All I saw were few 75LV with Hy6 for good prices. This was when there were allready rumoura about F&H.
But in the end I am not that interested-I try to make my decision based on facts I collect about the product.
For me its not so important if others like it or not- but more if it fits my needs.