Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Ray Robertson on September 11, 2002, 11:44:51 pm
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I think I was saying there would be certain circumstances where the resolution of the 11.2 Mpixel 1Ds would be lower than the 6 Mpixel D60 and that this would be due to the lower pixel density of the 1Ds.
Let me take a specific example. One's biggest lens is, say, the Canon 100-400 IS zoom. One is shooting wildlife. 400mm is sometimes not quite long enough with the 1Ds. One has to crop to get that little bird on the twig a decent size. However, with the D60 and its 1.6 multiplier effect making the 400mm effectively 640mm, it's just right. No cropping required. Now, a 400mm lens produces an image of a certain size which is independent of the size of the sensor. The precise area of the bird on the D60 sensor will be the same as the area the bird occupies on the 1Ds sensor. However, the bird on the D60 sensor will consist of a greater number of pixels, ie. greater resolution.
On the other hand, if one is not at the limit of the zoom, the 1Ds is going to win resolution wise because cropping is done with the zoom and an 11.2 MP image is clearly better than a 6 MP image covering the same area but with different focal lengths.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I believe that most people will agree that the larger the individual photosite, the better as then you will have less chance of signal to noise ratio problems. The 11mp solution should have a chance to offer the wideangle shooter the first chance at really getting all the smaller details or will it? Some already made a good point here, the smaller the pixel size the more details I can pull in. Now we have an 11mp sensor, but we also just increased the amount of subject matter that that sensor is getting. Basically the size of an APS to 35mm frame, around 2/5's more data.
I am wondering if a better solution would be the current 6mp sensor size with 2x the res. Yes the noise issue would be considerable so it might just not be possible now.
With the 11mp sensor, with the larger pixel size, it will also be interesting to see what the base ISO is.
One thing you never hear about is the Contax N digital, it seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
This will be the first of many cameras based on this format, so will be interested in seeing just what it can do, in regards to the ablility to pull in the greater amounts of small details.
Paul Caldwell[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Well, I don't see that attempting to come to grips with the effects of full frame sensors is necessarily speculation, or if it is speculation it's probably because there are often issues that are glossed over or not spelled out by professional reviewers, that might be of interest to some of us. I remember Michael's first review of the D30 and his comparison with Provia F100. I found it curious that he never did a comparison at equal focal lengths. He cropped the Provia film shots by zooming out. There was no comparison between film and the D30 at 400mm, for example, leaving me to speculate on how much better my 'bird on a twig' example might be with a D30. Reviewers also don't seem to give hard facts on dynamic range. They comment on noise which I presume is related to dynamic range, but it's not the same thing, is it?
The Contax N issue raised by Paul is another case in point. When I read anything about this camera the first thing I want to know is, how much better is the signal-to-noise and the dynamic range. But it seems to be a secret. The last I heard about this camera was a reference from the BJP that Kyocera was replacing all initial units sold because of a faulty power management system.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Mike, based on the prematurely released Canon news release, the camera is the 1D, which has great weather sealing, spot metering, autofocus, and lots of other things, but with a full-frame CMOS sensor of 4064 X 2704 pixels, = 11.1MP. It'll have a frame rate of about 3ps.
Go for it. I suspect it'll convert thousands of film-using professionals and well-heeled amateurs.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks for the info Doug, Michael.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Mike,
The Canon D30 and D60 seem to be much less prone to dust on the sensor than other cameras. The 1D is similar in that regard to Nikon's CCD based cameras.
My guess is that the 1Ds will be comparable to the D30 and D60 when it comes to dust resistance.
Michael[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Good point Jeffrey. I've been wondering that too. EOS-1DS with a large S would make more sense. And what does "S" stand for? "Super"?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Mike--
Holy smoke, Batman...the 1DS will be your FURST digital camera? I suggest you start with a used D30! You could buy and sell it for about $1200, and it'll get you used to playing with CF cards, card readers, notebook computers for field use, CF-card readers, etc., instead of film, processing, lite tables, cataloging and physically storing slides, scanners, Digital Ice, etc.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Well, I browsed Phil Askey's in-depth review of the camera as well as the official Canon website for the EOS-1Ds and downloaded two of the large RAW files. The Fruit Plate and Portrait1, the model who looks a little like Natalie Portman.
In examining those photos up close, it's obvious that Canon neglected to clean the sensor first. Just because it's CMOS doesn't mean it's not susceptible to dust, and both photos had some dust spots. Especially the portrait, which would keep one busy speck removing in PS.
Still, the quality of the photos, sharpened after downloading with NS Pro at 1440X1440 setting and "Anna" was very impressive overall, as it had better be for a $7K+ camera! I used the highest possible printer res setting in NS Pro because that was as close as it currently gets to what Epson's latest printers are capable of. I resized the image first to 7X10.5" from 72DPI to 360, sharpened, and resaved as an STN file.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Michael writes:
"I heard today from a large Canon dealer, (in a country and city that will remain unnamed), that the Canon distributor has asked them to get deposits from anyone wishing to place an order for a 1Ds. No reason is forthcoming, but my surmise is ..."
How likely is it that Canon is using this 'deposit' requirement to guage acceptance of their too-high intro price, ...since these depositers will be doing so without knowing whether the price will come down, and to-what. Why not just give Canon a blank check?
Maybe if anyone who puts down a deposit under this current price-rumor had to actually PAY this price, when the camera comes, and KNEW that they would, ...then the deposit-list would give a truer picture of market-acceptance-at-this-price!
Larry
???[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']i understand where you are coming from. i'll just be stoked if it really is a full frame sensor and i can get wide angle shots that i'm used to. obviously the smart thing to do is buy a D60 AND a 1Ds to get the best of both worlds! ;)[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']And again it begins, all the propellor-heads talking theoretical physics. It never ends every time something new is announced, people in anticipation(understandeable of course) start the debating over the fact that it will never work, yes it will, no it won't , yes it will, no it won't because yada yada yada.
Pul-lease!! Give it a rest! Nothing matters but the real world tests folks. That's what people like Michael and Phil Askey do. They put aside all the near endless speculation and do the testing. When that happens, all the theoretical physics becomes real and we find out one way or the other how well the equipment really works. And we won't be seeing any of those tests for at least a few months, probably several. Now put away your pocket protectors and slide rules and go out this weekend and shoot something with the gear you do have.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Happy to say I did go out and take some shots as well as enjoying my new 2200. BTW, maybe this belongs in the Printers forum, but I don't understand some of the anal griping I've read in some forums around the net about the 2200. So far, without any additional profiling and ultra-expensive calibration equipment, I've been able to get color output with the 2200 that I'm very happy with. And the bronzing, while noticeable at a few angles is overall not an issue.
Now back to the EOS 1Ds. Maybe I was being rude, pardon me, but I just decided to check out this thread to see if indeed, the usual debating and speculation was going on about MP counts, resolution and the effects of full-frame sensors. Sure enough, I was right. Y-------a-------w-------n! My eyes glaze over every time.
As for equipment reviews, if Michael can do a test and review of this camera sooner than expected, all the better. It's exciting because Nikon must also be just around the corner with their own new Pro SLR. We may see something new from them at Photokina also. Anyway, the kinds of equipment reviews Michael and Phil do are to me much more important than press releases and of course the constant speculation that follows. The proof is in the pudding and all questions are laid to rest in good in-depth reviews like the kind Phil does especially and others also. Providing the reviewer has adequate time to test the equipment and Phil usually does.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I presume, as part of the 1D series, that this camera will be coming with a sturdy, all-metal construction, well weather-sealed, and have at least one (probably several) through-the-lens spotmeters, will have firewire, and maybe even decent autofocus? All that, plus 11.1 million megapixels, with a CMOS chip. If these specs are accurate, and if I'm reading them correctly, and speculating correctly, then I think this is finally the one I've been waiting for.
Does anyone have any comments on whether I'm rading this and guessing this correctly?
I may just switch to all-digital when I get my hands on this. Let's hope that this is everything it looks like it is, and that there aren't any intolerable peculiarities.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Has a price been set? Does anyone know how I go about placing an order and getting on the waiting list?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Michael,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
If the 1D is similar in that regard to Nikon's CCD based cameras (i.e., more dust prone, right?), then why do you guess that the 1Ds will be comparable to the D30 & D60 (i.e., more dust resistant)?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Mike, the 1D has a CCD, the 1Ds* a CMOS. Apparently the CCD is quicker cycling, making the 1D's 8fps speed possible.
* Am I the only one to be annoyed that Canon chose the plural version of '1D', that being '1Ds'**, to name their newest model? Now when someone says they just love their 1Ds, you don't know if they have 2 of the 1D model or a single 1Ds.
** Just as the plural of PC is PCs, and the plural of LCD is LCDs. Ain't no apostrophes in those 'words'.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Jeffrey,
Yeah, I noticed the poor name choice, which will cause confusion between the plural of 1D and the singular of 1Ds. Annoying and dumb.
By the way, I called my dealer; I'm number four on the waiting list. She said that they will call me back about a deposit, if I'm still interested, after the camera is introduced, priced, and has an SKU.
It looks like I'll have a few months to learn everything I can about digital before I get the 1Ds in my hands. Does anyone have any suggestions how to start?
Cheers,
Mike[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Hi Danny,
First of all congrats to your bird photography.
Your thougts do meet my opinion. I am still reluctant to go digital because of my type of photography where resolution=detail is everything.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Good point Larry.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']It's interesting how readily one can equate a doubling of pixel count with a doubling of resolution. Here's an extract from the press release.
"The EOS-1Ds capture astounding detail & colour, almost doubling the resolution ordinarily considered state of the art for a digital SLR camera in the world today."
Well! How misleading can one get? An 11.2 megapixel full frame sensor does not even nearly equate to double the resolution of a 6 megapixel 15x22mm sensor. The 24x36mm 35mm frame is over 2.6x the area of the D60 sensor. To maintain that pixel density on a full frame requires at least 15 megapixels. All else being equal (and of course we don't know yet if that will be the case) the EOS 1Ds will actually have a lower resolution at your maximum focal length than cameras such as the D60.
However, don't think I'm belittling Canon's achievement. The larger format will be much appreciated for wide angle shots and any slight loss in resolution would only be apparent at maximum zoom settings and in situations where the maximum telephoto effect is not quite great enough with the 1Ds, requiring cropping of the image.
In most situations, the increase in resolution will be in the order of 1.35 and hopefully the dynamic range will be greater than current 6 megapixel SLR's. It's regrettable I'm probably not going to be able to afford this camera, having recently splashed out on the D60. [/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I anxiously await to see what Michael can do with 11.1 MPx of CMOS sensor. Considering the beauty he produced with the 3.1 MPx on the D30 and 6.1 MPx on the D60; it is fun to think of what he will be able to produce on the 1Ds. It is amazing the progress that is being made in digital photography. [/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\'][/QUOTE] It never ends every time something new is announced, people in anticipation(understandeable of course) start the debating over the fact that it will never work, yes it will, no it won't , yes it will, no it won't because yada yada yada. ...Pul-lease!! Give it a rest!
Some folks on this forum can't afford photo equipment. Others are immersed in demanding jobs and don't have the luxury of time to devote to shooting. I have some photo friends who are too old or too ill to go to the field any more. For whatever reason, they enjoy reading this forum. Me, I probably won't fulfill my new dream of a 1Ds. But I sure get a bang out of reading every morsel and tidbit that is written about it.
Reminds me of a story in our family about our grandfather who had lots of children in his early life and later developed a severe coronary malady. The Dr advised him to give up at least 1/2 of his sex life. He asked, "Which half, Doc, the reading or the thinking?"
Why would I even want to come to this forum if it didn't in some way feed my passion, whether it be reading or thinking about it.
Steele[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Paul:
Your last sentence is certainly true. The camera companies, including Nikon don't always think everything through as far as designing the camera in a way that's in the best interest of the photographer.
Phil's tests may not apply to everyone as you mentioned, but the tests he's done of the pro D-SLRs are among, if not, the most in-depth or extensive I've seen anywhere.
Rob Galbraith's forums are excellent for the various D-SLR camera owners to discuss whatever questions and problems they have with their cameras, lenses, memory cards, etc. I've learned a heck of a lot from that site. Any problems that arise from these cameras are discussed and often result in a solution.
This all goes back to what Michael said in his comments about the photo industry in the past month. In so many cases, before the photo magazines are even halfway close to going to press, many photo websites are posting the latest news and in-depth test reports and the forums are discussing whatever problems photogs find with the new equipment.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Yes.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Isn't it interesting that Michael has said nothing here? I suspect that he has a D1s in his hands already! I suspect they gave him one for his next video #6 after he moaned about not being able to get the D60. Since he did more to sell D30 than anyone on the planet they should give him a D1s for permanent use.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Mike,
Each retailer will maintain their own "watiting list". Best bet is to call one or more of these, and get your name on their list(s) - pronto!
As for price, the speculation I've read is ~$5,000 - $6,000. To my knowledge Canon hasn't leaked, er, released that info yet.
Enjoy!
-- Jim[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Because it has a CMOS sensor, not a CCD sensor.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']'studio' doesn't seem like a name you'd give a waterproof camera built like a tank. just out of curiosity, what does the 'V' in 1V stand for?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I don't think it's at all odd to choose the 1Ds as a first digital camera; I'm doing the same thing myself. These are the specs I've been waiting for; none of the previous models have interested me in the least. Basically I'll only use it to shoot birds and the other few uses where I've been using 35mm; I'll stick to medium- and large formats for landscape :cool:[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']i'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that this theoretical camera will have lower resolution just because the pixel density is lower. sure, if you take this camera and the d60, shoot something with the same focal length lens, then crop down on the full frame image to match the same framing as the d60 there will be less pixels there. but why would you do that?? it defeats the purpose of having the full frame sensor. that's like cropping a 6x7 neg down to 24mmx36mm and saying medium format gives no resolution advantage over 35mm. to my knowledge, having larger individual sensors on the CCD will only improve quality, greater dynmic range, less noise at higher ISO. digital cameras are getting dramatically better at higher ISO settings and i'm really eager to see if this camera will be able to replace shooting 35mm tmax 3200 in low light settings. i'm sure it will blow it away since the 1d was already pretty close. at any rate, i'm very excited to find out more about this camera, and i'm sure many others are as well.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Hi,
Based on the comment of Ray I made some calculations which looks for me that the chip of the 1Ds has a bigger pixel on the chip than the D60.
D60 chip 22,7mm wide with 3072 pixel gives a pixel of 0.00738mm
1Ds chip 36mm wide with ~4147 (my assumption) gives a pixel of 0.00868
D30 chip 22,7mm wide with 2160 pixels gives a pixel of 0.0105mm
1D chip 28,7mm wide with 2496 pixels gives a pixel of 0.0115mm
According to what I have read a bigger pixel on the chip is better than a smaller one.
I think somewhere in Michaels articles this was commented too. Specially in regard to noise if I remember correctly.
About Ray´s Bird shot I calculated that he will have about 17% more pixels with the D60 than with the 1Ds. D60 has on wide 22,7mm ~3072 pixels and the assumed 1Ds has also on 22.7mm then ~2614 pixels. This could be a reason to go for the D60.
Anyhow for my taste I am beginning now to think more about buying a Digital SLR.
Just my 2cents to this.
regards Rainer[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Marshal,
If you don't find the conversation interesting, why don't you take your own advice and go out and take some photos instead of being rude?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Hello Marshal guess you knew this would come,
Never have been called a propeller head, and don't wear a pocket protector.
I sometimes wonder about the people who post such responses as yours, then why bother.
If you don't think it matters, then you should don't need to be shooting digital, as it all matters. Phil Askey's reviews are good I agree, but for my work they don't do much much good as Phil doesn't shoot what I do. One of the most important issues when using any of the Digital SLR's is understanding exactly just what the techology inside the camera is and how it works. All are different each has it's own tweaks. Most of the "real world" tests come from the people who get them and use then then post the info on sites such as these. Not so the case with the authors of most of these sites, as they most definately have to consider their sponsorship, and the ability to keep getting review material. Also, as has been shown by Nikon's and Fuji's latest releases, many time the companies don't tend to consider the user and make design decisions that are not in the best interest of the photographer.
Sincerely, the propeller head,
Paul Caldwell[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']I think I can live with three frames per second. I do sometimes like to burn through film at high speed while shooting a wildlife action sequence, but I'll just have to continue to work on my timing.
Does the current Canon 1D have mirror lock-up?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks. I'll do that.
I've read in numerous places that the Canon D30 and the D60 collected much less dust on the sensor chips than most other digital cameras. Not that this necessarily says anything about what the new 1Ds will be like, but, can anyone tell me whether the previous Canon 1D similarly was less dust prone than most other digital cameras with interchangeable lenses?[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks, Jeff.
I thought the 1D also had a CMOS sensor, and yet Mr. Reichmann just said that it was similar to Nikon's CCD based cameras in terms of dust attraction.
Also, I have read confusing debates as to whether the D30 & 60 cameras were less dust prone due to CMOS instead of CCD, or instead due to better designed chip housing. I don't know the answer to that one.
(Either way, it does seem like the CMOS chip offers other positive features, like lower battery consumption.)[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']'Studio' (or maybe 'studio'), apparently.[/font]
-
[font color=\'#000000\']Actually, I know of several professional landscape/nature photographers who will likely make their first digital camera purchase the 1Ds. They feel that this may be the first digital camera that can give them the quality output at larger print sizes (20x30 or larger). I haven't done the math but I think this camera should produce about a 36 megabyte 8bit file. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as the price, I hope it's only $5000-$6000; I have also heard nasty rumors that it may be priced over $8000. I am hoping that this is not the case, but suspect that even at this price Canon could sell as many as they could make for awhile.
Bob[/font]