Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nemo on March 30, 2009, 09:06:12 am
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Mamiya/Phase One have presented a new prototype of an all new full digital design for their 645 system:
http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ca...a-645-df-2.html (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/camaras-para-formato-medio/mamiya-645-df-2.html)
It includes a grip.
(Sorry, the source is in Spanish).
I find the design unergonomical and ugly... far from the clear design of the Leica S2. Even the Pentax 645 looks as based on film MF cameras...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml)
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Mamiya/Phase One have presented a new prototype of an all new full digital design for their 645 system:
http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ca...a-645-df-2.html (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/camaras-para-formato-medio/mamiya-645-df-2.html)
It includes a grip.
(Sorry, the source is in Spanish).
I find the design unergonomical and ugly... far from the clear design of the Leica S2. Even the Pentax 645 looks as based on film MF cameras...
The camera looks incredibly bulky!
The leaf shutter lens is great to finally see! I can't wait to get my hands on one. The 80 and the 150mm LS would be great!!
-Pat
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This was discussed quite a bit in another thread on GetDPI. The photo is a mockup, not real.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6412 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6412)
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Yes, it is a mockup. Sorry for the mistake. It isn't a working prototype yet...
I don't understand why they don't follow the Mamiya ZD way...
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Real photos of the new Mamiya 645DF/Phase One 645AF MkII body from PIE 2009 are here
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml)
thanks to Bernard Languillier.
The body itself seems quite compact (ignoring the VF gooseneck): it is the backs that add the bulk, and the need for that long VF extension.
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It's looking fine, keep in mind the 645DF is a standard (FF) 645 camera while the S2 is only half medium format, it has to house a much larger mirror box, prism etc.
(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/static/image/2009/03/29/pma_mamiya_001l.jpg)
(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/static/image/2009/03/29/pma_mamiya_004l.jpg)
(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/static/image/2009/03/29/pma_mamiya_003l.jpg)
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Is there an AF-ON button falling at the thumb,
and on the vertical grip as well?
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... it's a Mamiya AFDIII body that's now called a DF, nothing more, nothing less.
Where did you learn that there is no difference except the name? I have read reports of several changes, two plusses and a minus:
+ Automatic detection that a leaf shutter lens is in place, disabling the focal plane shutter (and maybe the earlier 645AF bodies do not work at all with leaf shutter lenses)
- It is usable only with digitial backs, not film backs. Why? Perhaps because ...
+ It is usable with sensor formats up to the full 41.5x56mm of 645 film format. Some MF bodies cannot do that because of a film gate with 41.5x56mm opening that the front of the sensor must fit into or get flush against, so the non-light sensitive stuff at the edges of the sensor gets in the way reducing the maximum usable sensor frame size by a few mm. (That might have been why sensors stayed at about 49x37mm max until recently; waiting for enough bodies to accept larger sensors.)
The last plus is less clear than the first two items though.
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+ It is usable with sensor formats up to the full 41.5x56mm of 645 film format. Some MF bodies cannot do that because of a film gate with 41.5x56mm opening that the front of the sensor must fit into or get flush against, so the non-light sensitive stuff at the edges of the sensor gets in the way reducing the maximum usable sensor frame size by a few mm. (That might have been why sensors stayed at about 49x37mm max until recently; waiting for enough bodies to accept larger sensors.)
I believe the film gate size is defined by the film magazine and not by the opening in the body, but anyway, all current 645/6x6 bodies can accommodate 56mm sensors, with no issues.
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Is there an AF-ON button falling at the thumb,
and on the vertical grip as well?
There's no AF-ON button at the thumb, what the spec sheets says is there are AF lock buttons on the body itself AND on the grip.
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... all current 645/6x6 bodies can accommodate 56mm sensors, with no issues.
All, or just most current bodies? The Hy6 body has no "gate problem", and I am sure the Hasselblad H3 digital-only bodies are fine, but have read mixed reports about other bodies.
Anyway, the leaf shutter interface is the most obvious and needed upgrade.
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According to mamiya.com the battery grip can only be used with the new DF, is this true? If so that's pretty disappointing, I was expecting it to be backwards compatible.
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Sorry but these AFDIII/DF bodies should cost maybe $2K at most. There is nothing special to them that demands $4K+ prices.
absolutely, 2k at most. I would concede 2700$ because of the prism with light meter.
but that is all about it.
the current canon 5dII, sony a900 and Nik d700 are much better bodies with tighter tolerances for the build, more sophisticates electronics and mechanics and packed with at least the double amount of features, not mentioning a sensor and they run for 3K.
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According to mamiya.com the battery grip can only be used with the new DF, is this true? If so that's pretty disappointing, I was expecting it to be backwards compatible.
I would not expect anything different. they do their best for eventually squeeze every penny out of us.
they are not succeeding with me though.
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I would not expect anything different. they do their best for eventually squeeze every penny out of us.
they are much succeeding with me though.
Yeah, I would like the LS lens, but I will try and find a used AFDIII once the lens are released. Knowing Mamiya, I'm not holding my breath!
I still want to see this mysterious 45-90mm f4.5.
-P
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All, or just most current bodies? The Hy6 body has no "gate problem", and I am sure the Hasselblad H3 digital-only bodies are fine, but have read mixed reports about other bodies.
Anyway, the leaf shutter interface is the most obvious and needed upgrade.
OK then:-)
"Most" will mean H1, H2, 645AFD/ AFDII/ AFDIII, Contax, 5XX V-series, Arcbody, FlexBody, Bronica ETRSi/ SQAi, Leaf AFi and Rollei/ Sinar Hy6. Let us if you heard about any problematic bodies and we will investigate.
thanks, yair
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I have the AFDII body & the AFDIII doesn't interest me because it does not have a separate focus control. I have posted about this before & I have never had any problems with the AFDII. I have heard that the 645 DF has a separate focus control? What I mean is that you can program the shutter release to just be the shutter release. My Canon cameras have been set like this for years as did my ZD camera. Loosing the film back makes sense. I sold my 645 AFD body for $400.00 USD on eBay last year & there are plenty of those 645 AFD kits on eBay. So if this camera has faster AF , separate focus control, vertical grip, leaf shutter lenses I would be interested. The difference between 1/500 & 1/800 is a half stop. Going from 1/125 to 1/500 is 2 stops well enough for flash fill outdoors. The Canon @ 1/250X works great anyhow. Ever since Phase started working with Mamiya things have been improving. Before 2006 not much was happening with Mamiya except for the ZD camera which took 15 months to come to market. Now that Phase is in control I think this will speed things up. I have owned the Mamiya AFD system since 2000. Before that a 500cm & to be honest I had more problems with the 500CM. Our choice is getting smaller with only 3 systems ( being made ):H3D ( closed ), Mamiya ( open ) & Hy6 ( closed Sinar/Leaf ). Of those 3 only the H3D & Mamiya have a 28 mm. And only Mamiya can take a Sinar, Leaf, Phase, & Imacon back. I also remember that when the Phase body ( AFDIII ) was announced that there would be a another new body coming next year ( 2009).
Denis
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The MF market is a mess.
Even the Hasselblad HD3 camera is based on a film camera concept. The Mamiyas don't look better, except for the ZD, which was frozen. The Pentax 645D prototype has the same form and shape, not particuarly ergonomic and balanced. Only the new full format 645 backs match the original format of the lenses... (the Leaf/Sinar backs are far from true 6x6 backs yet...).
The more I think about it, the more I like the Leica S2 concept:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-2009-day-1-more-details-on-leica-s2.html#links)
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-2009-more-updates-on-leica-s2.html#links)
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The MF market is a mess.
Even the Hasselblad HD3 camera is based on a film camera concept. The Mamiyas don't look better, except for the ZD, which was frozen.
The more I think about it, the more I see how good is the Leica S2 concept:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-2009-day-1-more-details-on-leica-s2.html#links)
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-2009-more-updates-on-leica-s2.html#links)
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I just don't get the S2 with a chip of 30x45mm it sits in the middle. Current digital backs are 36x48, 36x56 (Leaf) & 40.4x 53.9 ( P65+). I just saw a mint Aptus 22 for around the 6700 USD mark & these are both available in the Mamiya/H mounts chip size 36x48. I think if the S2 wanted to be different they would go to a CMOS sensor & go for an iso range of 100-6400. This would capture the wedding market guys.
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http://dpnow.com/5830.html (http://dpnow.com/5830.html)
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80mm leaf shutter lens
Main Specifications
Compatible cameras: 645DF
645AFDIII (requires upgrading) Optical construction: 5 groups / 6 elements Angle of view: 47 degrees Mininltnn aperture: 22 Minimum focusing distance: 70cm Maximum magnification ratio: 0.15 Area covered: 377 x 279mm Equivalent focal length in 35mlll: 50mm (for the 645 film image size)
The AFDIII needs an upgrade to use the LS lens.
The vertical grip will only fit the 645 DF & takes AA batteries. Also seems to be able to trigger flash units ( could be a pocket wizzard? )
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"Most" will mean H1, H2, 645AFD/ AFDII/ AFDIII, Contax, 5XX V-series, Arcbody, FlexBody, Bronica ETRSi/ SQAi, Leaf AFi and Rollei/ Sinar Hy6. Let us if you heard about any problematic bodies and we will investigate.
If that is the list, then "all" works well enough! My question was mostly about Mamiya 645 models before the DF, and the film-compatible H series bodies. I do not know of any sensor offered for any of the above except the Hy6 with a sensor that is the full 56mm wide, or any sensor of the full 41.5mm height, and the slightly smaller dimensions of the sensor for the P65+ was part of what made me give some credence to the "film gate" limit idea.
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Now it may that only the DF will allow the leaf shutter lenses.
It's said to have better AF ...
I was addressing solely your claim that there is no difference except the name, and the above ends that debate, especially with the report at http://dpnow.com/5830.html (http://dpnow.com/5830.html) More specifically, it seems that one difference is that the DF works with LS lenses out of the box whereas the 645AFDIII can use them, but only after an "upgrade".
If you only meant that that differences are not very impressive, or not enough to justify the new higher price, that is another topic: DMF pricing is a scary mystery to me.
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Where do I begin.
It's as if you have never seen a Mamiya AF/AFD1/II/III body before, the AF was introduced in '99. The 645DF is physically identical to the AFDIII. They haven't magically engineered a whole new camera here. That should be plain as day.
Capture Integration is a great bunch of guys and put their heart into their work. But they posted pics last fall of the grip on the Phase One AF (rebranded AFDIII) showing the grip. Now Mamiya is showing the grip and reports say it only fits the DF. See the inconsistency.
The leaf shutter lenses, I believe were first mentioned late '07, talked about much more in '08, CI posted info as well last year touting the leaf shutter lenses compatibility to the Phase One AF (rebranded Mamiya AFDIII). See the pattern here. Now it may that only the DF will allow the leaf shutter lenses.
It's said to have better AF, Bernard's report: 'The Mamiya representative didn’t provide too much detail yet on what exactly they changed, but the basic claim is that the focus on digital only allowed them to take various design decisions that improve the overall performance of the camera. They mentioned specifically AF speed ..."
So don't you think that all these Phase One AF owners who thought they were getting a future capable camera with leaf shutter lenses will be quite irritated. I would be. Will Phase swap out at no charge the first PO AF for the PO AFII.
It's comical that the Mamiya branded leaf shutter lenses will only do 1/500, but the Phase versions will reportedly do 1/800. What is that bullshit. A leaf shutter can't magically have two different top ends, unless Phase is having a "special version" so they can charge more, which is lame. So Mamiya owners get screwed. Does no one else see all this to be a bit f*&#$% up?
Sorry but making a tweak to the AF seems to be the only thing changed that's worth a dime. Mamiya says the body will cost more than the AFDIII which was also supposed to work (in the future) with leaf shutter lenses, but now may not.
All of this is definitely becoming a Hasselblad PR run, poor information, crippling of cameras, higher costs.
Preach on, Brother Schweikert.... Preach on.
As someone who's just getting into MF Digital, all I can say is that I'm continually astounded by what is passed off as latest-greatest (and the associated price that's added on).
I wish they'd just say "it's about the image quality". Another re-badge ain't gonna get me excited, that's for sure.
All I want is good ergonomics, decently fast af, and a great LCD on the back. Shit, if phase or mamiya would partner with RadioPopper or Pocketwizard and work on TTL integration (instead of a marginal, at best, sync speed increase).... THEN we'd be talkin'. Plus, they'd not have to engineer yet another line of uber-expensive lenses that really don't get us anywhere. If everyone wanted super-high x-sync (i personally do)... then we'd all be shooting Rollei/PQS.
Can you imagine how many RadioPoppers/Pocketwizrds (the TTL kind!) you could get for the cost of one LS Lens? And think about picture sharpness? 1/500th is plenty good for hand-holding... but what about 1/4000th... oh, and the RP's can trigger strobes too. C'mon... catch a clue, MedF.
So... I just don't see why these decisions are being made. Is it good gear? Sure. Is it capable? I guess.
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II do not know of any sensor offered for any of the above except the Hy6 with a sensor that is the full 56mm wide, or any sensor of the full 41.5mm height, and the slightly smaller dimensions of the sensor for the P65+ was part of what made me give some credence to the "film gate" limit idea.
The Leica R9 + DMR had a similar problem. The film gate (the R9 was a film reflex camera) didn't allow for a larger (full frame) sensor, or that was Leica's explanation at the time...
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I do not know of any sensor offered for any of the above except the Hy6 with a sensor that is the full 56mm wide
The Aptus-II 10 has a 56mm wide sensor, same as in the AFi-II 10 and it is made for the above 645 bodies.
Yair
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The Leica R9 + DMR had a similar problem. The film gate (the R9 was a film reflex camera) didn't allow for a larger (full frame) sensor, or that was Leica's explanation at the time...
It has been pointed out the film gate for a 645 camera is on the film magazine and R9 has its film gate on the camera, these are different things altogether.
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http://dpnow.com/5830.html (http://dpnow.com/5830.html)
Quote
80mm leaf shutter lens
Main Specifications
Compatible cameras: 645DF
645AFDIII (requires upgrading) Optical construction: 5 groups / 6 elements Angle of view: 47 degrees Mininltnn aperture: 22 Minimum focusing distance: 70cm Maximum magnification ratio: 0.15 Area covered: 377 x 279mm Equivalent focal length in 35mlll: 50mm (for the 645 film image size)
The AFDIII needs an upgrade to use the LS lens.
The vertical grip will only fit the 645 DF & takes AA batteries. Also seems to be able to trigger flash units ( could be a pocket wizzard? )
very likely the upgrading for using the LF lens on the older body, will be on the price range of:"what? are you crazy"?
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A bit more details:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml)
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_mdinr08090016_b_eng.html (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_mdinr08090016_b_eng.html)
Mamiya Japan has some info. about the grip:
[blockquote]
2008/09/16
Mamiya Digital Imaging is pleased to unveil at Photokina 2008 a vertical grip for use with the 645AFDIII series.
# Features
This is a vertical grip for use with the 645AFDIII series. The grip features a shutter release button, a release mode selector, an AE lock button and AF lock button all for the convenience of the photographer for when shooting vertically. This product has been designed with the portrait photographer in mind, allowing for ease of shooting no matter what angle your creativity is demanding. The grip can be powered by either AA batteries or rechargeable nickel hydride batteries. Remaining battery power of the grip can be displayed on the camera LCD. Once again Mamiya has anticipated and responded to the needs of the professional by manufacturing this essential item.
# Specifications
Compatible cameras: the 645AFDIII series
Features:
shutter release button, release mode selector, AE and AF lock buttons, rear and front electronic dials.
Dimensions: 153mm (L）x115mm (H) x 78 (W)
Weight: 400g (batteries included)
Date of First Sales: To be announced
Price: To be announced
[/blockquote]
Mamiya Digital Imaging Co., Ltd
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I was wondering....
If DSLR camera makers can release camera bodies with 7 to 9 focusing sensors on bodies that cost few hundred dollars and works very well, how come that MF camera makers can only deliver one or eventually 3 focus sensors for 5 grands?
Is someone is going to tell me, that a MF mirror box that works at 1/3 or 1/5 of the speed of a DSLR one, it is at least twice the size, therefore built with more tolerances, is more difficult to design or a more sophisticated part to produce? I hope not.
Than, how came that a Sony/Zeiss 135mm, or a canon 135mm 2.0 got an AF speed that is zip fast, and some of the hasselblad and mamiya lenses, which are a fraction of the wight and use a fraction of the glass of the two mentioned lenses, are slow as molasses and costs sometime twice as much, if not more? And by the way, they are even not better optics.
Is the Mamiya vertical grip going to be a much more sophisticated device than a Sony a900 vertical grip (or a Nikon) that cost less than 300$? I seriously doubt. Is it going to cost significantly more than 300$? I would bet on it.
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The Aptus-II 10 has a 56mm wide sensor, same as in the AFi-II 10 and it is made for the above 645 bodies.
Thanks; I had missed that the 56x36mm "True Wide Frame sensor" backs are also available for all those 645 models.
(The new mystery is why the other new Dalsa sensor, in the P65+, is 4mm higher (40.4mm), but stops 2mm short of full width (53.9mm): why does Dalsa stop just slightly short when it is capable make a full 56mm width sensor?)
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I was wondering....
If DSLR camera makers can release camera bodies with 7 to 9 focusing sensors on bodies that cost few hundred dollars and works very well, how come that MF camera makers can only deliver one or eventually 3 focus sensors for 5 grands?
Is someone is going to tell me, that a MF mirror box that works at 1/3 or 1/5 of the speed of a DSLR one, it is at least twice the size, therefore built with more tolerances, is more difficult to design or a more sophisticated part to produce? I hope not.
Than, how came that a Sony/Zeiss 135mm, or a canon 135mm 2.0 got an AF speed that is zip fast, and some of the hasselblad and mamiya lenses, which are a fraction of the wight and use a fraction of the glass of the two mentioned lenses, are slow as molasses and costs sometime twice as much, if not more? And by the way, they are even not better optics.
Is the Mamiya vertical grip going to be a much more sophisticated device than a Sony a900 vertical grip (or a Nikon) that cost less than 300$? I seriously doubt. Is it going to cost significantly more than 300$? I would bet on it.
Isn't the very simple answer to that question "economies of scales"?
Besides, there might be some technological limitations as far as multi-point AF goes. FX DSLRs do typically still group their AF sensors in the middle of the frame. The same absolute spread would be next to useless on a MF body. If Nikon, Canon and Sony cannot do it with huge cash and many experienced engineers working 14 hours a day, I don't see how anybody else could. These components do to some extend rely on standard parts, but the value added items are mostly not publicly available since the camera manufacturers see them as critical differentiators for their own system.
Besides, keep in mind that validation becomes critical when you start to design/produce such equipments. The complexity would add tremendous burden to the already very slow developement process of the boutique MF manufacturers. Remember how buggy the H systems was literally for years (I used to shoot with a H1 camera)... think of the uproar this would cause if a Canon Rebel had 1/10th the issues?... My Mamiya ZD was not reliable either although it was a simple design, the more the complexity increases the more the scope of validation to do is multiplied exponentially to ensure correct operation. MF just doesn't have the resources it takes to go there because of their low volume/high price business model.
There might be some brave attempts, but I think that they are boud to fail.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I just don't get the S2 with a chip of 30x45mm it sits in the middle. Current digital backs are 36x48, 36x56 (Leaf) & 40.4x 53.9 ( P65+). I just saw a mint Aptus 22 for around the 6700 USD mark & these are both available in the Mamiya/H mounts chip size 36x48. I think if the S2 wanted to be different they would go to a CMOS sensor & go for an iso range of 100-6400. This would capture the wedding market guys.
I don't think that the S2 system will be able to capture a significant part of the market, but why is this sensor size a problem?
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.dslrmagazine.com/images/stories...frontside-B.jpg (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/images/stories/Profesionalfot/Mamiya-645DF-up/645DF-frontside-B.jpg)
I don't understand how difficult it is to engineer or to figure out the need of a tripod socket on the left side of the camera. I have a L bracket on my AFD and I would have to give it up if I ever got a vertical grip. This would be going back to unstable vertical positioning of the system in the tripod and waist of time adjusting the tripod.
Also the L bracket protects the camera when stored in a camera back on the side. This prototype looks big enough to be able to have such "platform"....
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(http://www.dslrmagazine.com/images/stories/Profesionalfot/Mamiya-645DF-up/645DF-frontside-B.jpg)
I don't understand how difficult it is to engineer or to figure out the need of a tripod socket on the left side of the camera. I have a L bracket on my AFD and I would have to give it up if I ever got a vertical grip. This would be going back to unstable vertical positioning of the system in the tripod and waist of time adjusting the tripod.
Also the L bracket protects the camera when stored in a camera back on the side. This prototype looks big enough to be able to have such "platform"....
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See how Pentax solved it since many years ago:
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...5d/P645D-10.jpg (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/P645D-10.jpg)
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YES ! Exactly that... but Pentax forgot about the vertical grip. I don't see the point in having extra power for the camera, I can shoot for days with one set of batteries, they can do a smaller vertical grip or design it in the body. Don't the CONTAX has one built in?
I think that Pentax wanted to make a camera light and compact for landscape photographers. This is an atractive 645, don't know why people don't seam to like it...
See how Pentax solved it since many years ago:
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...5d/P645D-10.jpg (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/P645D-10.jpg)