Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: David Grover / Capture One on October 29, 2008, 04:19:02 pm
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I have received a few requests regarding the moire removal tool in Phocus (Hasselblad's Raw conversion software)
So I post a crop of an image with and without the tool applied at a level of 3 (Strength varies from 1-5)
Image with no correction
[attachment=9296:nocorr.jpg]
Image with Moire correction on, level 3
[attachment=9295:cor.jpg]
File is a very old shot from a 16MP back so it will still work on any 3F file.
Best,
David
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There's still quite some color artifacts around particularly at edges.
I haven't ever delivered a file like that to a client.
Not impressed.
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I am impressed. Maybe the image itself is not impressive but that is besides the point. The level to which moire, especially the pattern type, is removed I find quite spectacular. When it does perform that way every time I know a lot of people that will be really happy with it.
This is not even the most aggressive removal?
Naturally you can always do handwork to try to get rid of the remaining parts of moire, there still is some left in this image. The filter will save you a lot of time doing it yourself in PS.
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There's still quite some color artifacts around particularly at edges.
I haven't ever delivered a file like that to a client.
Not impressed.
I wanted to show what a moderate setting on the filter could do with a particularly severe case of moire.
I could have cheated and retouched out the small amount of artefacts remaining but that would of course not be honest.
Compare post production time in correcting the two images and you certainly should be impressed.
Also compare the level of detail between each image and you should also draw the same conclusion. Normally moire removal involves blurring / desaturating none of which is occurring here.
I thank and echo Dustbak's remarks!
Best
David
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Note - If you wish you can also output from Phocus a layered PSD file with two layers - correction on and off.
Very useful if you set the most aggressive removal (5) and want to control the effect more specifically.
D
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Note - If you wish you can also output from Phocus a layered PSD file with two layers - correction on and off.
Very useful if you set the most aggressive removal (5) and want to control the effect more specifically.
D
That's pretty neat David.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Note - If you wish you can also output from Phocus a layered PSD file with two layers - correction on and off.
Very useful if you set the most aggressive removal (5) and want to control the effect more specifically.
That's cool, another time saver compared to the separate creation of 2 files with moire reduction on and off.
I am also impressed with the level of improvement the moire reduction tool brings. You should sell it as a chargeable plug in for PS for the general market (meaning also non Hassy cameras).
Cheers,
Bernard
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David,
I think the results are impressive. Thank you for posting them. Questions:
1. Is there one software team working on Phocus Mac and Phocus PC or two separate teams?
2. How are the teams handling updating each Phocus version: a) one after the other, or 2) making changes to each version at the same time?
3. It is nearly a year since I'm purchased my H3DII39s from Hasselblad and I do not have a version 1.0 of Phocus PC - can you clarify what is going on (I know you guys are working hard on it, that is not my question, I'm asking seriously: I've given you guys a lot of money, are we talking Thanksgiving, Chanukah, Easter or next Ramadan for Phocus PC?).
4. Are the same programmers who created FC doing the Phocus programming work?
5. I have also been patiently waiting for the 64 second exposure bump, why is it that PhaseOne backs have their firmware/software working for long expsoures but the H3DII39 cannot do more than 32 seconds? They are the same chipset, correct? Am I the only one who is asking for this? I have had to spend extra $$$ to obtain an H1 to do long exposures on film because this 64 second exposure bump has yet to be delivered (I also purchased the H1 because I suspect I won't see longer than 64 seconds from Hasselblad) - when can we get this exposure bump, by Christmas, Valentine’s Day, 4th of July (the British version) or next Halloween?
You know my stance on Hasselblad and the gear, or you should know. So these questions are not meant to be rude in any way - I would just appreciate some candid answers if you could. I am very much looking forward to Phocus PC's release (when it is ready) - so far what I have seen is good work. Thank you in advance.
Update: on the PSD output - very nice idea - is this available in the Phocus PC beta or not? Is the DAC available as layers or just moire? Because if you could create layers with the Phocus specific features you may make a lot of people very happy because they can jump to PS with the Phocus options.
Kind regards,
Derek
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Add me to the "impressed" list. Very nice!
I also like the layered .PSD option--kudos to your team on this.
-Brad
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That's pretty good - but after a second I saw what Boris was talking about. Can the remaining moire on the edges of the squares be eliminated if you use a higher setting? If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you post a third image set to #5?
Thanks,
Eric
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that would even more so desaturate some parts/colours in the top dark blue square patterns. We have the same type of filter in Captureshop: there is no secret, it's a filter and as such, if applied over the whole image, it will affect other parts in the saturation.
Thierry
That's pretty good - but after a second I saw what Boris was talking about. Can the remaining moire on the edges of the squares be eliminated if you use a higher setting? If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you post a third image set to #5?
Thanks,
Eric
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that would even more so desaturate some parts/colours in the top dark blue square patterns. We have the same type of filter in Captureshop: there is no secret, it's a filter and as such, if applied over the whole image, it will affect other parts in the saturation.
Thierry
Not so fast there Thierry!!!!!
The big thing here is that it DOESN'T affect saturation.
I post two crops from the same image with a Color Checker card with the correction set to 5 (maximum) and no correction. You can layer the images in Photoshop and set to 'Difference' if you really want to see that there is no difference.
There is a tiny amount of artefacts on a couple of edges which can easily be solved in PhotoShop.
So, lets say I stick to Phocus information and you stick to CaptureShop.
Best,
David
This has no moire correction...
[attachment=9316:chartnone.jpg]
This has the maximum level, 5 set
[attachment=9317:chart5.jpg]
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That's pretty good - but after a second I saw what Boris was talking about. Can the remaining moire on the edges of the squares be eliminated if you use a higher setting? If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you post a third image set to #5?
Thanks,
Eric
No trouble at all, Sir.
Here is the same with level 5. Still a few spits and spots remaining but I still think thats a huge reduction in PP time compared to doing it from scratch!
Best,
David
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David,
I think the results are impressive. Thank you for posting them. Questions:
Kind regards,
Derek
Let me find out and get back to you! No problem with the questions, Ill just make sure I have the right timeframe in the answers.
David
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not meant to be a negative critic, David.
I was seeing and still see some change in colours in the top dark blue patches: check it carefully. But this does not take away that this tool is useful.
Best regards,
Thierry
Not so fast there Thierry!!!!!
The big thing here is that it DOESN'T affect saturation.
I post two crops from the same image with a Color Checker card with the correction set to 5 (maximum) and no correction. You can layer the images in Photoshop and set to 'Difference' if you really want to see that there is no difference.
There is a tiny amount of artefacts on a couple of edges which can easily be solved in PhotoShop.
So, lets say I stick to Phocus information and you stick to CaptureShop.
Best,
David
This has no moire correction...
[attachment=9316:chartnone.jpg]
This has the maximum level, 5 set
[attachment=9317:chart5.jpg]
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not meant to be a negative critic, David.
I was seeing and still see some change in colours in the top dark blue patches: check it carefully. But this does by not take away that this tool is useful.
Best regards,
Thierry
Nooo worries! Yes I think the tool is useful too.
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Not to be bitching but I did layer the files up in PS and checked with blendmode difference. I have attached the resulting file. See for yourself how much the moire removed file differs from the other.
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On the de-moired Macbeth chart, there's what looks like the bayer pattern breaking through on all the edges, which to the eye didn't have any chroma moire on them in the original image. Also, the top right of the macbeth, near the pure white square, you can see a very strange, large, blue blotchy artifact appear. It's similarly very bad around the green square on the Macbeth.
I wrote the chroma de-moire tool in the RED software (not that we ever see much moire, but you can provoke it on test charts and the like) which seems to work very differently from what I see here. I think I posted here a while back as I was very keen to see what you'd come up with for chroma moire removal. I'm very impressed with the removal aspect, but not impressed with the additions I see to the image. However, what I've written is not as strong on the removal of moire, but doesn't add new bits to the image either.
Thanks,
Graeme
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On the de-moired Macbeth chart, there's what looks like the bayer pattern breaking through on all the edges, which to the eye didn't have any chroma moire on them in the original image. Also, the top right of the macbeth, near the pure white square, you can see a very strange, large, blue blotchy artifact appear. It's similarly very bad around the green square on the Macbeth.
I wrote the chroma de-moire tool in the RED software (not that we ever see much moire, but you can provoke it on test charts and the like) which seems to work very differently from what I see here. I think I posted here a while back as I was very keen to see what you'd come up with for chroma moire removal. I'm very impressed with the removal aspect, but not impressed with the additions I see to the image. However, what I've written is not as strong on the removal of moire, but doesn't add new bits to the image either.
Thanks,
Graeme
Hey Graeme,
Bear in mind this was a very strong correction (level 5) on very severe moire. The point of showing the chart was to show that saturation, was not, if at all, affected.
That is why we have the layered PSD option so you can be more selective with the tool.
The moire patterns we see on digital images can often be far less severe and are corrected easily on say level 2 or 3 of the tool.
Congrats on your involvement with RED. A company to look out for in the future no doubt.
Best,
David
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Hey Graeme,
Bear in mind this was a very strong correction (level 5) on very severe moire. The point of showing the chart was to show that saturation, was not, if at all, affected.
For what it's worth, we use this tool everyday at the studio, and it's nothing short of miraculous. The higher resolution backs like the 31 and 39 don't see as much moire as this shot david showed. Most of it clears up with a level 1 or 2, with no visible artifacts. If we have to go to level 3 (rare) it's likely that we'll see some artifacts from the filter, but the ability to make a layered file is a very simple solution. Supposedly the 1.1 update features an improved moire tool (something about a better ability to recognize the actual moire), but in use, I didn't see much of a difference.
Barry
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Supposedly the 1.1 update features an improved moire tool (something about a better ability to recognize the actual moire), but in use, I didn't see much of a difference.
Barry
Hi Barry
The difference I'm seeing between 1.0 and 1.1 is much less unwanted artifacting from the filter.
Nick-T
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For what it's worth, we use this tool everyday at the studio, and it's nothing short of miraculous. The higher resolution backs like the 31 and 39 don't see as much moire as this shot david showed. Most of it clears up with a level 1 or 2, with no visible artifacts. If we have to go to level 3 (rare) it's likely that we'll see some artifacts from the filter, but the ability to make a layered file is a very simple solution. Supposedly the 1.1 update features an improved moire tool (something about a better ability to recognize the actual moire), but in use, I didn't see much of a difference.
Barry
Thanks Barry - thats kinda of what I was trying to get across! I am glad it is working well - thats what we hoped!
Nick is right when he says that there the filter is more discerning on non-moire'd areas. However the development continues and it will be even better.
Best,
David
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Let me find out and get back to you! No problem with the questions, Ill just make sure I have the right timeframe in the answers.
David
David,
I am interested in getting those answers as well - in particuliar concerning the iso bumb. I would greatly appreciate your efforts on the matter
Best
Frank
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David,
I think the results are impressive. Thank you for posting them. Questions:
1. Is there one software team working on Phocus Mac and Phocus PC or two separate teams?
2. How are the teams handling updating each Phocus version: a) one after the other, or 2) making changes to each version at the same time?
3. It is nearly a year since I'm purchased my H3DII39s from Hasselblad and I do not have a version 1.0 of Phocus PC - can you clarify what is going on (I know you guys are working hard on it, that is not my question, I'm asking seriously: I've given you guys a lot of money, are we talking Thanksgiving, Chanukah, Easter or next Ramadan for Phocus PC?).
4. Are the same programmers who created FC doing the Phocus programming work?
5. I have also been patiently waiting for the 64 second exposure bump, why is it that PhaseOne backs have their firmware/software working for long expsoures but the H3DII39 cannot do more than 32 seconds? They are the same chipset, correct? Am I the only one who is asking for this? I have had to spend extra $$$ to obtain an H1 to do long exposures on film because this 64 second exposure bump has yet to be delivered (I also purchased the H1 because I suspect I won't see longer than 64 seconds from Hasselblad) - when can we get this exposure bump, by Christmas, Valentine’s Day, 4th of July (the British version) or next Halloween?
You know my stance on Hasselblad and the gear, or you should know. So these questions are not meant to be rude in any way - I would just appreciate some candid answers if you could. I am very much looking forward to Phocus PC's release (when it is ready) - so far what I have seen is good work. Thank you in advance.
Update: on the PSD output - very nice idea - is this available in the Phocus PC beta or not? Is the DAC available as layers or just moire? Because if you could create layers with the Phocus specific features you may make a lot of people very happy because they can jump to PS with the Phocus options.
Kind regards,
Derek
Hi Derek,
Apologies for the delay in answering, I just wanted to be sure I had the right information.
1. There are two teams but of course with crossover between the two - Like moire handling algorithms, colour and so on. They are handled by the same people.
2. At the moment the Mac version is ahead of the PC version. But this will narrow as time moves on.
3. Public Beta release we aim for the end of this Month.
4. Yes + Additional!
5. The ability to go +1 on the ISO and double exposure time is ready to go, been through testing and so on. This involves updating the firmware on your camera (obviously I guess!) to get this feature. For us we need to finish packaging up the firmware for all the different products (H2D, H3D, CFV, CF etc) and make this available. This is also aimed for the end of the month.
I hope that makes things a bit clearer!
The layered option for the same image is only available right now for the moire tool. But I see it could be interesting to perhaps apply to other tools as well. Careful thought would be needed in how to handle the GUI (could get confusing) but its certainly worth a discussion.
Best,
David
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David, first, thanks for contributing so much useful info. And thanks for avoiding the use of BS!
My own selfish little hope is for the bump in ISO ASAP. I currently find (H3D39II/Phocus 1.1) 50 ISO gives great results but then it rapidly tails off so that 100 is bearable, 200 only for emergency use and 400 should never ever be shown to a client! Mainly it's a noise problem and the Leaf and Phase backs that I tested had the same problem. Of course, others may disagree. Have you seen images with the ISO bump? Are they a stop better? And did I read you correctly in that we might see the (firmware) release at the end of this month? Thanks again.
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I do my best!
I guess it is personal preference. True if you are looking at 100% then the noise is much more visible but wether you like or dislike is down to you. Have you printed off A2 inkjets of each ISO and compared?
I saw images a long time ago with the bump and it has improved since then, so as its very much individual taste Ill let you be the judge. ISO800 on the 50MP was looking good though.
Yes, you are correct about the firmware. (I hope! )
Best
David
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David,
ISO800 on the 50MP did look good? Was that with images with good or bad light? Naturally good is a really subjective term but I hope you are more picky than I am I don't mind noise as long as it is good looking. Good thing it is finally coming.
Looking forward to the bumps in ISO & Exposure duration. The longer exposure is that 64sec's? As you know we photographers are like little children. Give them a finger and we will grab your arm; any ideas whether stuff like 15min's is in the realm of realism for the current backs?
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David,
I'll echo the same sentiment as Dustbak - your responses are much appreciated. I was worried the PC version of Phocus would be the lonely step child, hence my questions.
I'm seeing the fall-off at 200 ISO and 400 ISO, not 100, but Dustbak is probably more experienced with digital than I am. I have been doing a lot of work in the woods where the light falls off very quickly and I have to stop shooting at 32 seconds and there is still a lot of light. I too feel 400 ISO is for emergency (sounds funny but it is an accurate word).
Looking forward to the 64 second bump! Be well.
Kind regards,
Derek
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5. The ability to go +1 on the ISO and double exposure time is ready to go, been through testing and so on. This involves updating the firmware on your camera (obviously I guess!) to get this feature. For us we need to finish packaging up the firmware for all the different products (H2D, H3D, CFV, CF etc) and make this available. This is also aimed for the end of the month.
Best,
David
Thank you David
Best / Frank
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wow, that is impressive - I wish I could have back the time I have spent trying to rid a photo of moire in photoshop..
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wow, that is impressive - I wish I could have back the time I have spent trying to rid a photo of moire in photoshop..
Yes it's a lifesaver, I remember hours trying to kill pattern moire with motion blur (against the angle of the moire) works pretty well when all else fails.
Nick-T
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I have received a few requests regarding the moire removal tool in Phocus (Hasselblad's Raw conversion software)
So I post a crop of an image with and without the tool applied at a level of 3 (Strength varies from 1-5)
David
Hi, David and all
I think this is a good example: HD311-50, 50-110mm @70, 50 asa, unscaled crop (not down-ressed), flash, 1/258 @f8.
Image with no correction
[attachment=17924:Moire_00..._as_shot.jpg]
Image with Moire correction on, level 5
[attachment=17923:Moire_00..._level_5.jpg]
Is Lycra one of the worst materials for Moiré?
The Moiré correction seemed to have no effect at less than level 5, and you can still see the Moiré pattern, but at least the pattern is different shades of the same colour, rather than large bands of a completely different colour!
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I wonder why when the 2 files taken to PS and turned to LAB why they are so different in the L channel...
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Hi,
Moiré is just one form of aliasing. Most other forms of aliasing is much more subtle. Essentially it's false detail.
The best example I have found is the link below from a Sigma DP2:
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/SigmaDP2...res_ACR-002.JPG (http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/SigmaDP2/Samples/Comparedto/Res/DP2_res_ACR-002.JPG)
Note that the line pattern is not resolved at the number 17 at 20 we can see line pattern again but it is inverted.
Best regards
Erik
Hi, David and all
I think this is a good example: HD311-50, 50-110mm @70, 50 asa, unscaled crop (not down-ressed), flash, 1/258 @f8.
Image with no correction
[attachment=17924:Moire_00..._as_shot.jpg]
Image with Moire correction on, level 5
[attachment=17923:Moire_00..._level_5.jpg]
Is Lycra one of the worst materials for Moiré?
The Moiré correction seemed to have no effect at less than level 5, and you can still see the Moiré pattern, but at least the pattern is different shades of the same colour, rather than large bands of a completely different colour!