Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: pco98 on October 12, 2008, 05:26:21 pm
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Hello all,
My sister is an interior designer and consultant. As part of her work she takes pictures of rooms as designed by herself. She doesn't need to be using top end equipment but at the moment she's woefully under-equipped with a 2MP compact camera which just isn't wide enough for those room interior needs. Stitching is one option we've looked at but this camera is a dud.
Recently she saw some pictures I took of my recently refurbished living room using my 5D and 16-35mm 2.8 L. She really like the wide angle perspective and it gets in everything she needs in a single shot but this setup wld probably be beyond her company's budget. She cld perhaps justify the lens with a cheaper canon body but then that wld mean cropped sensor and a loss of the ultra-wide angle.
I've never used canon's cropped sensors but could there be a comparable option there with one of their EF-S lenses. She doesn't strictly need the L lens pedigree for her work either.
Any suggestions on a reasonable budget to middle-priced ultra-wide angle set up for interior architecture?
Open to compact as well as SLR set up suggestions from any brand.
Thanks for any help,
Ross
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Wides in general, are pretty evenly matched in price... You could look at the 12-24 something from Sigma (it's roughly in that range of focal length).
Ulternatively the widest compact on the market is the Sigma DS1 (I think that's it) @ 24mm's... But it's a fixed focal length.
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Check out the latest Canon Rebel XSI: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5421...XSi_a_k_a_.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542177-REG/Canon_2756B001_EOS_Rebel_XSi_a_k_a_.html)
Sigma Wide Angles:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3026..._6_AF_Lens.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/302698-REG/Sigma_200101_12_24mm_f_4_5_5_6_AF_Lens.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3816..._5_6_EX_DC.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/381610-REG/Sigma_201101_10_20mm_f_4_5_6_EX_DC.html)
This body and one of these wide zooms is about $1200- $1400. total.
The above Sigma P&S is a more economical and decent suggestion.
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The Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 seems to have some good reviews. I haven't used one but it looks like it could be an affordable solution when combined with a basic Canon or Nikon DSLR.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-D40-Digital-SLR-...oQQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-D40-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-Kit-Case-4GB-USA_W0QQitemZ350108008150QQihZ022QQcategoryZ31388QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3816...C.html#includes (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/381611-REG/Sigma_201306_10_20mm_f_4_5_6D_EX_DC.html#includes)
With shipping and everything she needs to get started, this option runs just under $1000.
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Hello all,
My sister is an interior designer and consultant. As part of her work she takes pictures of rooms as designed by herself. She doesn't need to be using top end equipment but at the moment she's woefully under-equipped with a 2MP compact camera which just isn't wide enough for those room interior needs. Stitching is one option we've looked at but this camera is a dud.
Recently she saw some pictures I took of my recently refurbished living room using my 5D and 16-35mm 2.8 L. She really like the wide angle perspective and it gets in everything she needs in a single shot but this setup wld probably be beyond her company's budget. She cld perhaps justify the lens with a cheaper canon body but then that wld mean cropped sensor and a loss of the ultra-wide angle.
I've never used canon's cropped sensors but could there be a comparable option there with one of their EF-S lenses. She doesn't strictly need the L lens pedigree for her work either.
Any suggestions on a reasonable budget to middle-priced ultra-wide angle set up for interior architecture?
Open to compact as well as SLR set up suggestions from any brand.
Thanks for any help,
Ross
Try this combination, Ross:
Canon Rebel XTi + EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 lens.
B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5421...XSi_a_k_a_.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542177-REG/Canon_2756B001_EOS_Rebel_XSi_a_k_a_.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3515..._5_4_5_USM.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/351542-USA/Canon_9518A002_EF_S_10_22mm_f_3_5_4_5_USM.html)
This is a bit more expensive (~$1300); but it is all Canon.
Bruce
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Try this combination, Ross:
Canon Rebel XTi + EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 lens.
B
I bought a used XTI for my hiking small cam for about $400. I'm using a pretty inexpensive (you can find it for under $300 right now) Tamron 17-35 f/2.8 which would be better than any P & S, but I'd recommend the Sigma 15-30 f/3.5-4.5. I used it for years for shooting interiors commercially and it can be found for a very reasonable price used right now. This would probably keep the price under $800. If the budget allows for more--the Sigma 12-24 is terrific for interiors--and I did own the Canon 10-22 at one time--also a very nice lens.
Diane
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Thanks everyone.
Am looking into all the suggestions - the Canon Rebel with the 10-22 or Sigma looks the most tempting option so far.
Ross
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Thanks everyone.
Am looking into all the suggestions - the Canon Rebel with the 10-22 or Sigma looks the most tempting option so far.
Ross
Canon APS-C at 10mm equals 97° on the horizontal axis.
Nikon DX at 10mm equals 100°on the horizontal axis.
Canon APS-C at 12mm equals 86° on the horizontal axis.
Nikon DX at 10mm equals 90°on the horizontal axis.
Regardless of which system your sister chooses, I would recommend a used 6-8MP DSLR as that will be a significant improvement in both image quality and FOV over any P&S, and it would keep the price comfortably below $1000.
As for the lenses:
http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/174-cano...-review?start=1 (http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/174-canon-ef-s-10-22mm-f35-45-usm-test-report--review?start=1)
http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-...-review?start=1 (http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests/308-sigma-af-10-20mm-f4-56-dc-ex-hsm-lab-test-report--review?start=1)
At 10mm and 14mm the Sigma has sharper edges than the Canon. The Sigma lens appears to do better on Nikon than it does on Canon:
http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/307-sigm...-review?start=1 (http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/307-sigma-af-10-20mm-f4-56-hsm-ex-dc-lab-test-report--review?start=1)
A note of caution from Photozone regarding the Sigma 10-20 (applicable to all lenses IMHO), "If you're looking for a candidate in this class the Sigma is worth a look but watch out for sample variations."
Your sister can also save some money by going with a Tokina 12-24/4, but for the Nikon system the D40, D40x, and D60 will not AF with the older version (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092403tokina.asp) of this lens (it has just been updated to include an internal AF motor and should be available soon).
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Thanks everyone.
Am looking into all the suggestions - the Canon Rebel with the 10-22 or Sigma looks the most tempting option so far.
Ross
I thought that all the stuff mentioned above was allright; then, for professional reasons, I realized it is not her camera, but a company camera which has to work well in, at and on construction sites. The problem is not that much wide angle, the problem, surprisingly, is weather sealing. She might want interior viewing. The contractor would love to have pics of building processes and building pathology analysis. And then, the interiors get dusty and dumpy.
That taken into account, there is only one affordable candidate, which is the Pentax K200d.
550 $ at B+h body only. If you huggle and do some research, you might have it for lower prices.
Get the same Sigma option [the 10-20mm].
The second-tier 16-45 F4 is a very good performer [surprisingly so, must admit], and is about 300 $.
For a complete weather sealing, the "stellar" [although QC issues happend before, should be solved by now] 16-50 DA* SDM F2.8.
All those combos can be had for a max. of 1100 US $.
It truly is a sturdy camera.
Cons:
The images, though, have a distinctive look which can be not everyone´s cup of tea. The difference between shooting JPEG and RAW is much more noticeable than with the rest of the dSLR brands, specially regarding detail and contrast detailing.
She will have to learn how to use ACR, Lightroom or ACDSee to get the most out of the camera [which is much more than, say, a D60]
Brick and mortar camera shops are more reluctant to sell and service Pentax than Sony, Canon or Nikon.
Pros
She will get In Body stabilization [arguably better for company economy], 10mpx, and weather sealing [crucial at her job].
She could experiment for very little money with zillions of 50$ primes and lenses, and get to know what "first level" bokeh means.
All in all, don´t think so much about what you would buy, but what will she need and be happy to handle. Do not forget that "budget" dSLR camera makers are six at least: Sony, Olympus, Canon, Samsung, Nikon and Pentax. Do not reduce your scope to Canon or Nikon, when Olympus might be the best thing she could have [size and carry everywhere capabilities].
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Thanks for pointing out some of the wider issues and choices. Her work is really of completed showroom interiors but nevertheless she may need to walk through construction sites to get at those. Whether that means a weather-sealed camera or just a decent bag needs to be considered. I'll let her know. Of course I have my own bias as a Canon user but there are plenty of other viable wide angle setups out there at very competitive prices many of which have the potential to suit my sister's needs.
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I really like the Canon 10-22 for interiors. I'm surprised by how often I end up having it racked out the whole way to 10mm, so I don't think I'd be as happy with something that only went to 12.
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Another thing to consider is the lighting.
I'd recommend a simple digital SLR - something small like the Rebel, but then bracket and blend the images together. With a good tripod and a remote release(one good thing for IR remotes, IMO), she can get clean high dynamic range photos for loads less money than something like a Fuji S5 Pro(which would be my price isn't a concern ($1700!) choice since it does this in-camera).
Loads of people that I know use the cheap Canons pus a good lens and then software to tweak the results. their rationale is that the lens is the big deal - the body is just a fancy housing for the sensor that will last a few years and then likely be tossed - almost like it's expendable compared to the lens. So there's no real reason to spend more than the basic $600 or so for the Canon body, since the Rebel XS/XSi seems to be the least expensive yet acceptable quality DSLR out there now. 10-12MP is a lot of resolution for this price.
I'd recommend a good 28mm(film equivalent) lens myself, because beyond that, you'll get noticeable distortion. There is a setting in most programs to correct for this, which is something she'll also need to look into(varies from program to program), but less distortion to begin with is always better. Clarity is the big deal since with bracketing and software, you don't need a really fast lens for interiors. Fast, yes, but no need to get silly, either.
The upside is that what used to take a fancy lens that could manually shift its focal plane and a tedious amount of setup now takes a normal tripod and some tweaking via software to get the geometry to look perfectly straight. You can also crop and stitch as necessary.
EDIT:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5395...LR_Digital.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539540-REG/Sony_DSLRA200K_Alpha_DSLR_A200_SLR_Digital.html)
The Sony A200 ($500) might also be a good choice. the Olympus are cheaper, but have far less lens choices. The Sony is based upon Minolta, so there are tons of older lenses to be had as well as many from Sigma and others for it. I think this would be about the least expensive 10MP camera out there with a good selection of lenses for it. The included lens - figure $50 less without it - or Ebay it off or whatever. The camera also has image stabilization as well - a nice feature.(it's CCD based and not lens based, another cost saving bonus, IMO)
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dslr_a200-review/ (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dslr_a200-review/)
They seem to like it considering that it's so inexpensive.
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Wides in general, are pretty evenly matched in price... You could look at the 12-24 something from Sigma (it's roughly in that range of focal length).
Ulternatively the widest compact on the market is the Sigma DS1 (I think that's it) @ 24mm's... But it's a fixed focal length.
The Sigma 12-24 is a really nice lens. Focusing is slow and it can be prone to flare but for most interior shots this isn't an issue. I've shot quite a lot of interiors recently with a 1.3x crop 1d mk3 with the Sigma and have been really impressed with the IQ of it. However the lens might not be wide enough on a 1.6 crop body.
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Canon Rebel XTi + EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 lens.
+1 : the body could be a XTi, XS or XSi, but the 10-22 is one of the most regarded lenses in this area - it has exactly the same angle of view on EFS bodies as the 16-35 on a 5D. At the lower end, a few millimeters really do make a difference.
For someone coming from a simple P&S, I'd forget the stitching solution - it would make a tripod & pano head almost compulsory to avoid disturbing parallax errors with such a close subject.
The bracketing idea may have the same disavantage...
Given the rather low noise levels of aforementioned cameras, shooting raw, exposing for the highlights and applying a simple preset in Lightroom (something like Fill Light 50 or 75 Blacks 20 or 30) may already yield acceptable results if she needs to blend the interior with the view through the window.
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The bracketing idea may have the same disadvantage...
Most cameras now can be set to auto-bracket for exposure a stop or two apart in rapid succession. Less than a second between shots, and since there's only one shutter release, a simple tripod is stable enough in virtually all cases(since indoors there's really little to no wind or vibration)
http://www.hdrlabs.com/tools/autobracketing.html (http://www.hdrlabs.com/tools/autobracketing.html)
A list. Obviously +/- 2 EV is better if you can manage it to bring out the inevitable darker areas with indoor photography.
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Most cameras now can be set to auto-bracket for exposure a stop or two apart in rapid succession. Less than a second between shots, and since there's only one shutter release, a simple tripod is stable enough in virtually all cases(since indoors there's really little to no wind or vibration)
We do agree : a tripod is probably needed for good results.
I sometimes use handheld "high" speed bracketing (http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_hdr_and_tonemapping/20071223_HighSpeedBracketingReport/index.html) with my goodol'300d=DRebel, but aligning shots can be a problem, especially with Photomatix or Enfuse. I usually end with CS3's "aligning layers" feature and "traditionnal" masking technique. Efficient in the end, but not a very smooth workflow.
In both cases, I thought it was a tad too complicated for the OP's needs, but it's up to her to decide.
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In both cases, I thought it was a tad too complicated for the OP's needs, but it's up to her to decide.
I don't really think so, considering that once the camera is programmed, she can just go to that mode to start. It's more complicated, for sure, but the only other option is the Fuji S5 in terms of simplicity, and that's $1500.(well worth the money, IMO, if you have production speed in mind)
But for cheap, a basic Rebel at 10mp plus a tripod and bracketing, along with the zero noise software that's often discussed on this site(free is good) - is the best way to do this on a very small budget. Shoot, blend, kick the product out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stollerdos/se...57594182607198/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stollerdos/sets/72157594182607198/)
A good example of HDR for interiors. Unless your camera does this like the Fuji, or you're shooting actual film with a huge dynamic range, you'll never get this level of output quality without exposure bracketing and blending. And, honestly, the photos there look exactly like most companies would want for advertising(slightly "poster" like) - this not so simple but definitely possible to learn technique can easily set her ahead of the competition.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikegk/2396742466/sizes/l/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikegk/2396742466/sizes/l/)
A perfect example. 90% of her shots will end up like #1 or #3 - either overblown or way too dark with a typical camera. Toss three bracketed shots from a Rebel in Zero Noise and presto - results like the larger image. She has to see it compared like this to really understand how advantageous this is to interiors. I can't imagine shooting digital interiors any other way.
http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27424 (http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27424)
Another example - stock settings. 0, +1, -1. Toss in "blender".(heh)
And, it's already built into the most basic Rebel - just turn it on and learn how to use it.
Oh - for the original poster, here's a link to the Zero Noise discussion (software link is in the thread):
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....p;hl=zero+noise (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17775&hl=zero+noise)
Rebel.
Tripod.
Bracket the shot.
Toss in this program.
Profit!
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Thanks for pointing out some of the wider issues and choices. Her work is really of completed showroom interiors but nevertheless she may need to walk through construction sites to get at those. Whether that means a weather-sealed camera or just a decent bag needs to be considered. I'll let her know. Of course I have my own bias as a Canon user but there are plenty of other viable wide angle setups out there at very competitive prices many of which have the potential to suit my sister's needs.
All I wanted to say is that, nowadays, it is not the ultimate image quality what matters so far. If I recall propperly, put first your sister´s physical needs, THEN image quality. Else she will end up hating to lumber with an equipment she does not need and is not willing to use. Think of a jpeg user [or Ligthroom conversion user] rather than an imaging professional.
In that regard, I for instance could not recommend nor Nikon, nor Canon, nor Olympus. The preference will be Sony as far as menu usability is mentioned. I guess she is not a photographer NOR an amateur. Will she be willing to even think of switching the mode dial to P, M, Av, Tv or B.
Secondly: will she want to have ANOTHER bag with her?
Ask all those questions we usually omitt, but turn out to be as important as the image quality.
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She doesn't need to be using top end equipment but at the moment she's woefully under-equipped with a 2MP compact camera which just isn't wide enough for those room interior needs. Stitching is one option we've looked at but this camera is a dud.
Have you considered screw-on "wide angle" lenses compatible with some compacts? I got one with my old Coolpix 900 and was quickly impressed with the capabilities and results.
I'm not acquainted with current offerings and compatibilities, but if a compact suits her general needs and lifestyle better than a full-sized DSLR, it might be a viable option. A DSLR would certainly be more versatile, but they're not the ultimate tool for all users.
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Digital Rebel XSi Specs:
1lb without battery - body only.
5.1 x 3.9 x 2.4 in
Battery back 1.5 oz.
18-55 zoom lens 6.7 oz.
24.2 Ounces.(just a smidge over 1.5lbs ready to shoot) 18-55mm basic zoom lens.(28-88 35mm equivalent) this comes with it in the typical kit and is a fine lens. Plus it has image stabilization and good optics.
Yes, the Olympus E420 and a few other cameras weigh less, but the lenses are heavier, so it's a wash. I like the Canon as you hardly notice the lens at all - it's almost like a pancake 50mm lens on an old AE-1. Hardly there at less than 7 ounces.
It's a very light and small camera for its type. Not a 3-4lb monster setup like older digital SLRs used to be.
Canon S5 IS camera.(prosumer/larger pocket camera)
15.9 oz.
4.60 x 3.15 x 3.06 in
This of course includes the lens, but as you can see, the Rebel is a very light package. Since she'll need a tripod to take decent composed shots(to get the shots level and the angles perpendicular if nothing else), weight isn't a big deal, IMO, as the average tripod weighs at least 1-2lbs by itself. The body on the Canon is also much better sealed versus dust and gunk than a typical pocket camera.
$650 including the lens. Not a bad deal, IMO. And since that lens is the normal "kit" lens, just take her to any camera store and try it out(them buy online of course to save money).
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i have the sigma 12-24, canon 10-22, and tokina 11-16
the sigma is extraordanary on a full frame camera (particularly if you get a good copy), the 10-22 is awfully soft outside the center making it almost unusable to me for architectural shots - have just started using the tokina and am quite impressed with price/iq/build quality - and it's available for a variety of cameras
i wouldn't be particularly concerned with weather sealing unless you really plan to abuse the camera
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I would guess that the Canon G10 would be more than sufficient for your sister. It's fairly purse-friendly, has a 28mm equiv lens, and is super easy to use with supposedly a much improved screen. Probably much easier for her to use, too.
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I wonder why the aversion to a small SLR. She's going to need good optics and at the least, a tripod to do this work well enough to look professional.
The thing is, the tripod itself will weigh far more than the camera and lens. The idea that she can walk around, pull it out of her pocket, and shoot on the go is just wrong and won't happen. these need to be composed and that means she needs:
1 - A tripod. 3-5lbs right here for anything stable enough, given the less than perfect floors if it's in the process of being built.
2 - A flash or some sort of fill light for poorly lit shots. Or the ability to bracket in a pinch. A couple of extra pounds here as well.
3 - More than one lens or at least a reasonable compact zoom that's clean throughout its range (uncommon on pocket cameras)
4 - A decent light meter/sensor. And something that can do high ISOs as well. Compact cameras tend to do less well here for obvious design reasons.
An off-angle poorly lit and slightly blurry photo of an interior is not something I'd be happy with as a client. Not if I'm paying money for it.
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I wonder why the aversion to a small SLR. She's going to need good optics and at the least, a tripod to do this work well enough to look professional.
The thing is, the tripod itself will weigh far more than the camera and lens. The idea that she can walk around, pull it out of her pocket, and shoot on the go is just wrong and won't happen. these need to be composed and that means she needs:
1 - A tripod. 3-5lbs right here for anything stable enough, given the less than perfect floors if it's in the process of being built.
2 - A flash or some sort of fill light for poorly lit shots. Or the ability to bracket in a pinch. A couple of extra pounds here as well.
3 - More than one lens or at least a reasonable compact zoom that's clean throughout its range (uncommon on pocket cameras)
4 - A decent light meter/sensor. And something that can do high ISOs as well. Compact cameras tend to do less well here for obvious design reasons.
An off-angle poorly lit and slightly blurry photo of an interior is not something I'd be happy with as a client. Not if I'm paying money for it.
But she is NOT photographer. She is an interior designer/arranger. Which makes a difference [quite a big difference]. Do you pay for the catalogues of a car, or for the car itself?
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But the catalog often does help sell the car.
I just don't think this sort of work is going to work that well with a pocket sized digital camera, since bracketing is so critical for this sort of work(less of a factor using good film, though) due to the wide dynamic ranges involved. That's why the tripod is required - to get accurate alignment between the two exposures. And even a budget $30 tripod is still going to weigh at least 2-3 times what a pocket camera does.(1-2lbs) Add in a flash to do fills and even a very small gear bag with a spare battery and cleaning equipment and other accessories, and you're close to 3-5lbs of gear without the camera.
Weight isn't that big of a deal for this sort of work. I used to do similar work years ago with a all metal 35mm camera and a 8lb tripod. The total rig with the flash, auto winder, battery pack, light meter, film, accessories and lenses, and tripod(most of the weight) was almost 15lbs.
3-4lbs is nothing - my ex's purse is heavier than that.
Have her pick up the lighter weight Canon DSLRs in a camera shop. they're almost toy light.