Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: GregW on January 30, 2008, 07:22:06 am

Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: GregW on January 30, 2008, 07:22:06 am
Tokyo, Japan - Sony Corporation today announced the development of a 35mm full size (diagonal:43.3mm/Type 2.7) 24.81 effective megapixel, ultra-high speed high image quality CMOS image sensor designed to meet the increasing requirement for rapid image capture and advanced picture quality within digital SLR cameras.

Major features
High picture quality in 35mm full size image sensor with 24.81M effective pixels
"Column-Parallel A/D Conversion method" achieves high S/N and high-speed imaging
  •CDS/PGA(24dB)Circuit  (PGA: Programmable Gain Amplifier)
  •12bit-AD Converter on chip
  •Diversified readout mode
     •All-pixel scan mode   6.3 frame/s (12bit)
     •Window readout
High-speed digital output (12 channel parallel LVDS output)

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']www.sony.net Sony Press Releases - Sony Develops 35mm full size CMOS Image Sensor with 24.81 Effective Megapixel resolution and extremely high signal conversion speed for use in Digital SLR Cameras http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/20...010E/index.html (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200801/08-010E/index.html) Reterived on 2008-01-30[/span]
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: sojournerphoto on January 30, 2008, 07:35:16 am
Quote
Tokyo, Japan - Sony Corporation today announced the development of a 35mm full size (diagonal:43.3mm/Type 2.7) 24.81 effective megapixel, ultra-high speed high image quality CMOS image sensor designed to meet the increasing requirement for rapid image capture and advanced picture quality within digital SLR cameras.

Major features
High picture quality in 35mm full size image sensor with 24.81M effective pixels
"Column-Parallel A/D Conversion method" achieves high S/N and high-speed imaging
  •CDS/PGA(24dB)Circuit  (PGA: Programmable Gain Amplifier)
  •12bit-AD Converter on chip
  •Diversified readout mode
     •All-pixel scan mode   6.3 frame/s (12bit)
     •Window readout
High-speed digital output (12 channel parallel LVDS output)

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']www.sony.net Sony Press Releases - Sony Develops 35mm full size CMOS Image Sensor with 24.81 Effective Megapixel resolution and extremely high signal conversion speed for use in Digital SLR Cameras http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/20...010E/index.html (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200801/08-010E/index.html) Reterived on 2008-01-30[/span]
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Wonder where we'll see that then:)
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: francois on January 30, 2008, 08:09:32 am
Things start to be interesting, really!
 
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: DonWeston on January 30, 2008, 08:15:59 am
Quote
Things start to be interesting, really!
 
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Guess we will see them both coming to Nikon and Sony theaters near you in the near future.....can you say D3X and Sony whatever ....
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Kenneth Sky on January 30, 2008, 08:46:43 am
This would appear to be a set up by Sony to announce their "flagship" A900 model that they showed at last year's PMA under glass together with the A700. Together with the Carl Zeiss lenses they have announced, it can be assumed they are moving upmarket as well as filling in their mid-market with the A300 & A350. Even if you're not a Sony/Minolta A mount fan boy, it has to be exciting to see all these new models being introduced by Pentax, Olympus and Canikon. The consumer wins.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Quentin on January 30, 2008, 09:21:15 am
Soon all top end cameras from dslr manufacturers will have more than 20mp.  A modified version of this chip must be destined for a D3x.   Its eating in to medium format digital territory.  

Which leads me to the question, what is the next step beyond the current generation of 39mp chips in medium format cameras?

Quentin

Quote
This would appear to be a set up by Sony to announce their "flagship" A900 model that they showed at last year's PMA under glass together with the A700. Together with the Carl Zeiss lenses they have announced, it can be assumed they are moving upmarket as well as filling in their mid-market with the A300 & A350. Even if you're not a Sony/Minolta A mount fan boy, it has to be exciting to see all these new models being introduced by Pentax, Olympus and Canikon. The consumer wins.
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Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: SeanPuckett on January 30, 2008, 09:50:13 am
This is the chip I've been waiting a year for.  It is why I decided not to go to MF, because the writing was on the wall.  Whatever Nikon puts it in will be the camera I put a deposit on the instant it is announced.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Quentin on January 30, 2008, 11:48:33 am
Quote
This is the chip I've been waiting a year for.  It is why I decided not to go to MF, because the writing was on the wall.  Whatever Nikon puts it in will be the camera I put a deposit on the instant it is announced.
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You'll have to beat me to the store  

Quentin
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Andy M on January 30, 2008, 12:29:31 pm
Even at 12 bit?
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: TMcCulley on January 30, 2008, 12:32:02 pm
Quote
You'll have to beat me to the store   

Quentin
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Yes, there will be a race to get this one but what will it do to existing D3 sales.  I think Nikon will cripple the speed of the D3x just to maintain a market for the D3, but I will lust after one anyway.

Tom
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: SeanPuckett on January 30, 2008, 12:39:06 pm
I'm certain Nikon will have a custom version of this chip that will do 14 bit on demand, and probably a few other bump-ups.  If Nikon don't differentiate their offering from the "stock" Sony sensor -- 14 bits being the most obvious way to do so -- they will be inviting everyone else to dine at their table.  And that's just not going to happen.

Quote
Even at 12 bit?
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Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Mike Chini on January 30, 2008, 12:47:58 pm
I agree about the mfdb makers.  They really have to step things up or they're going by the wayside.  I'm not talking IQ, it's more about bang for the buck at this point.  The ZD could be the one if they can improve the interface, a/d converter etc.  Apart from that, maybe mfdb makers should consider swithing to CMOS.  Cheaper and better with long exposures, less heat etc.  Just an idea.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Christopher on January 30, 2008, 01:20:22 pm
Quote
I agree about the mfdb makers.  They really have to step things up or they're going by the wayside.  I'm not talking IQ, it's more about bang for the buck at this point.  The ZD could be the one if they can improve the interface, a/d converter etc.  Apart from that, maybe mfdb makers should consider swithing to CMOS.  Cheaper and better with long exposures, less heat etc.  Just an idea.
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I'm a happy 1DsMk3 owner and I'm still more happy than ever about this announcement. Why ? Because we finally getting some speed in the development of cameras again. I really hope we weill se faster steps sooner. I really was tired of Canon doing what ever they wanted because ther was nobody else.

I think we will see a new 1DsMk4 next year ;-) *hope*

The same with MFDB I'm sure we will se something 50+ MP this year.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: luong on January 30, 2008, 01:28:44 pm
Quote
I agree about the mfdb makers.  They really have to step things up or they're going by the wayside.  I'm not talking IQ, it's more about bang for the buck at this point. 
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As long as there is a clear quality difference, I don't think this matters. In all areas, when you want the best, you have to be prepared to pay exponentially more. To give an easily quantified example, 10,000 RPM drives are 4 or 5 times more expensive per GB than regular 7,200 RMP drives ! As for a Sony-equiped D3? undermining the D3, the price difference will be significant for those who don't need the ultimate resolution. If it wasn't for the Sony offering, Nikon could price the D3? well over the Canon (as they do for lenses).
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: luong on January 30, 2008, 01:31:00 pm
Quote
I'm a happy 1DsMk3 owner and I'm still more happy than ever about this announcement. Why ? Because we finally getting some speed in the development of cameras again.
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What we really need is development of lenses.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Christopher on January 30, 2008, 01:51:38 pm
Quote
What we really need is development of lenses.
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That depens which lenses you mean. Canon YES, Nikon on some, My Leica and zeiss lenses are really good and I think they have no problem holding up to 30Mp
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Mike Chini on January 30, 2008, 02:07:11 pm
Quote
As long as there is a clear quality difference, I don't think this matters. In all areas, when you want the best, you have to be prepared to pay exponentially more. To give an easily quantified example, 10,000 RPM drives are 4 or 5 times more expensive per GB than regular 7,200 RMP drives ! As for a Sony-equiped D3? undermining the D3, the price difference will be significant for those who don't need the ultimate resolution. If it wasn't for the Sony offering, Nikon could price the D3? well over the Canon (as they do for lenses).
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I agree.  I much prefer the quality of mfdb's but let's face it - this is a business and the mfdb makers are now under a LOT of pressure from 35mm.  I just read somewhere that the D3 has wonderful dynamic range (~10 stops at ISO 400, it's native ISO) and then there's weatherproofing of 35 cameras, big 3" LCD's, lens variety etc etc etc.  In the end, investing into mfdb is making less sense with each new camera model.  I wish there were more consolidation going on between the Mamiya's, Phase's, Leafs and Sinars because the amount of R&D money involved at Nikon, Sony and Canon is probably WAY beyond anything going on at Phase or Leaf.

And seriously, why no CMOS med. format sensors?
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Anders_HK on January 30, 2008, 02:41:54 pm
It seems in above discussion focus is on MPs, but... is there not more??

We read a 24MP 36x24mm sensor... surely that does not equate to a 24MP compact... then how can it equal to a medium format??

Is MPs all we want? Will lenses hold up? Is the 35mm format itself capable of what 645 is?

Regards
Anders
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: SeanPuckett on January 30, 2008, 03:00:01 pm
Anders, for myself I was able to forgive the capture quality [1] of the smaller cameras because of all of their other benefits: physical UI, features, software support, portability, price, etc.  My eagerness for a Nikon with this or a similar sensor is not just about more megapixels, although more megapixels will make some parts of my job much easier.  It's all the other things that the past two years have created for this market segment: live view, wide dynamic range, high ISO capability.  All these things will be rolled into a cheap[1] camera that from a final output standpoint is at shoulder level to MF, as opposed to waist-level or lower.

Or, perhaps in other words, finally photographers will have to differentiate themselves based on creative vision and pure photographic skill -- rather than who has spent $40K on gear and who has spent $4K.  And it's about damn time.

[1] Compared to MF.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Quentin on January 30, 2008, 04:29:51 pm
Yes, what should worry the mfdb maker is the sheer versatility of 35mm systems.  mfdb's look antiquated and slow compared to their more advanced and flexible smaller format offerings.

And consider what you could do with, say, a D3x and Nikon's just announced trio of tilt-shift lenses.  

The price disparity is simply going to have to decrease, and mfdb's will also have to offer something more than arguably marginal image quality improvements.  

If I was Phase / Leaf, etc, I'd be pretty worried; 21-25mp is more than enough for 98 percent of professional imaging applications, and those who need more are not numerous enough to support the entire mfdb industry.

Quentin
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Mike Chini on January 30, 2008, 05:55:47 pm
Quote
Or, perhaps in other words, finally photographers will have to differentiate themselves based on creative vision and pure photographic skill -- rather than who has spent $40K on gear and who has spent $4K.  And it's about damn time.

[1] Compared to MF.
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Nicely put.  And we all saw this coming years ago when everything started switching to digital.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Anthony R on January 30, 2008, 06:01:22 pm
Quote
..........
If I was Phase / Leaf, etc, I'd be pretty worried; 21-25mp is more than enough for 98 percent of professional imaging applications, and those who need more are not numerous enough to support the entire mfdb industry.

Quentin
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Bit of a gross exaggeration I believe. I retouch for a living in NYC and do you know how many dslr files I work on in an average year? Less than 2%
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Michael LS on January 30, 2008, 06:38:39 pm
Quote from: GregW,Jan 30 2008, 07:22 AM
Tokyo, Japan - Sony Corporation today announced the development of a 35mm full size (diagonal:43.3mm/Type 2.7) 24.81 effective megapixel, ultra-high speed high image quality CMOS image sensor designed to meet the increasing requirement for rapid image capture and advanced picture quality within digital SLR cameras.

Major features
High picture quality in 35mm full size image sensor with 24.81M effective pixels
"Column-Parallel A/D Conversion method" achieves high S/N and high-speed imaging
  •CDS/PGA(24dB)Circuit  (PGA: Programmable Gain Amplifier)
  •12bit-AD Converter on chip
  •Diversified readout mode
     •All-pixel scan mode   6.3 frame/s (12bit)
     •Window readout
High-speed digital output (12 channel parallel LVDS output)

Wow, this is exciting news. My immediate Pavlovian reaction is to want to pre-order this Nikon, too. However, one does wonder what the Sony camera will offer, for thousands less. As a purely "Art" guy, with no major investment in lenses, I'll be hoping for an early look posted on Michael's front page, as was done for the A700. I am very curious about actual "printed" differences in 12 bit and 14 bit, although that info will likely be hard to get, let alone quantify.

Heck, I'll probably get the Nikon, as any delay in pre-ordering it will surely mean a cruel, tedious wait...not unlike Chinese Water Torture  
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Quentin on January 30, 2008, 06:49:10 pm
Quote
Bit of a gross exaggeration I believe. I retouch for a living in NYC and do you know how many dslr files I work on in an average year? Less than 2%
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But then there is presently just one new to market 20mp+ dslr available.  Your percentages might change if there are several with top quality output, even in the high end segment I suspect you service - and I wonder how many mfdb's or MF cameras have to be sold to make the business profitable and what the effect on that business might be of a drop off in sales of even 10 or 15%, let alone a larger shift towards 35mm dslrs.

Quentin
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: shelby_lewis on January 30, 2008, 11:23:19 pm
Quote
The price disparity is simply going to have to decrease, and mfdb's will also have to offer something more than arguably marginal image quality improvements. 

I think it already has... refurb 22mp backs are at/below the 10K price and prices for mint condition mf stuff are ridiculously low (unless "latest greatest")... I just boought a mint rz with both finders and all the bells for under $900... put an aptus22 for less than 10K and I have a (much slower!) high end cam with incredible image quality, a sync speed of 1/400th and those legendary rz lenses.

Quote
If I was Phase / Leaf, etc, I'd be pretty worried; 21-25mp is more than enough for 98 percent of professional imaging applications, and those who need more are not numerous enough to support the entire mfdb industry.

Quentin
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I'd be nervous too... but let's face it, the MF cams own fashion and high end editorial work. Sure, I've seen all the big names use the canikons but the tools of choice, generally, for more deliberate high-end work are mf.

Never-the-less... I agree with most of what you say and I'm actually excited to see the pressure this puts on the mf makers... maybe an updated, more usable zd-type back will come out at around 5-6k in the next year due to such pressure.

Let's hope.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Josh-H on January 30, 2008, 11:44:42 pm
Can I just make a point here: And I think its a valid one - but please correct me if its not.

Having a 24+ megapixel full frame 35mm sensor is wonderful - no question. But its one element ONLY in a DSLR that contributes toward a useable desireable product.

What about all the other elements, ergonomics, lens selection, noise, ad infinitum...

I guess what I am trying to say is I would rather a 12 mega pixel 35mm DSLR that had the right 'package' than a 24 mega pixel DSLR that had the ergonimics of a wheelbarrow. If you take my meaning..

I dont beleive Canon with the 1DS MKIII or Nikon with their packages are in any real danger from the likes of Sony [assuming sony OEM their own DSLR for their sensor] as Canon and Nikon have their DSLR packages so refined.

To this end also I think MF camera manufacturers such as a Phase and Leaf are safe for quite some time to come.

Its exciting to see another high count mega pixel full frame sensor coming to market - and no doubt Nikon will shoe horn it into their 1dS MKIII competitor - but its not a reason for jumping ship from Canon or for ditching a MF set-up.

given the choice I would rather a MF 25 megapixel phase one or leaf than a Sony DSLR with equivalent megapixels.

Phew.. that ended up a bit of a rant.. and I meant it to be an opinion only...
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: DarkPenguin on January 30, 2008, 11:59:04 pm
Have you tried the Sony A700?  It is a pretty intuitive package.  Looks a little like it was made out of a potato(e) but handles really well.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Josh-H on January 31, 2008, 12:47:37 am
Quote
Have you tried the Sony A700?  It is a pretty intuitive package.  Looks a little like it was made out of a potato(e) but handles really well.
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Cant say that I have... But I have used and regularly use a Canon G5 and G9 as walk around happy snappers. They are nice cameras - but give me my DSLR any day as a preference.

The other thing though that I forgot to mention is there are some major benefits in having a larger sensor such as those in MF backs to 35mm - not the least of which is noise.

Ultimately of course.. MF will remain a niche market for those who need the benefits that it brings - the introduction of big mega pixel 35mm cameras may just narrow the niche - it wont eleminate it.

Thats my opinion anyway.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Dinarius on January 31, 2008, 09:06:58 am
This confirms my view that the market will soon divide between high-end DSLRs on one side and only the best MFDBs (by which I mean multi-shot and lots of pixels) on the other. All the in-between MFDBs are dead in the water, new or second-hand, in my view.

If I was Phase, I'd be worried. For my money (and I have a Hassie 39Mp MS on order) Hasselblad's and Sinar's *patented* multi-shot technology, coupled with their room for expansion in pixel terms, will guarantee them a market going forward at the high end of the market. I think that my 39Mp MS will hold its value very well, and that's if I ever choose to sell it. It may be all I ever need!  

Meanwhile, Sony's announcement should give Canon a wake up call, and I say this as someone who has just bought a 1Ds Mk3. Gorgeous camera but, with a few notable exceptions, the lenses are crap, as has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Interesting times.

D.

ps. Interesting comment above from the NY re-toucher. I wonder if his DSLR % will increase this year?
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Anthony R on January 31, 2008, 10:35:19 am
I do hope that it puts pressure on the mfdb makers to lower their prices, I'm actually counting on it. But, even now, with say the Aptus 22 or other lower MP backs, I don't see them. What I see on a regular basis and what makes up the majority of the files that come my way are P45, P30+, and Leaf 75. I rarely see a 22 or P21, P25. I see more film than either the lower mfdb or dslr or even Sinar or Hass files, not that I see a lot, but it's still out there and being shot for ads. I think this is because of the latitude of manipulation that the higher MP files allow, the ability to crop in and that so much of what I work on is repurposed from a single page mag ad to a point of purchase display, banner or billboard. A 22mp dslr can't compete. I doubt that a 24mp will or even be asked to. Sure it can, but it won't look as good and when a client is spending all that money on a campaign, they want the best the photo technology world has to offer. And, as stated previously, the lenses on the dslrs continue to leave a lot to be desired. The gap is narrowing, but the gap still firmly exists.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: DarkPenguin on January 31, 2008, 12:46:09 pm
A touch of high end Alpha news from the PMA 2008 blog at dpreview...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013109sonypma.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013109sonypma.asp)

Quote
09:22: Now here's the breaking news. We revealed last year that we would be announcing a high end Alpha. Development is continuing. Here's some detail of the sensor it will be built around. 24.6MP Full Frame CMOS sensor. It will be available by the end of this year (we're guessing a Photokina announcement).

09:23: Guy from DSLR development has taken the stage. Talking about Sony's image sensor ('Exmor'). They're working on the development of the new CMOS full frame (for the flagship model) and he's talking about the new CCD sensor developed for the A350.

09:27: Super Steady Shot for the Full Frame sensor is confirmed. Apparently there's a prototype here we can see in action.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: douglasf13 on January 31, 2008, 07:41:27 pm
Quote
Can I just make a point here: And I think its a valid one - but please correct me if its not.

Having a 24+ megapixel full frame 35mm sensor is wonderful - no question. But its one element ONLY in a DSLR that contributes toward a useable desireable product.

What about all the other elements, ergonomics, lens selection, noise, ad infinitum...

I guess what I am trying to say is I would rather a 12 mega pixel 35mm DSLR that had the right 'package' than a 24 mega pixel DSLR that had the ergonimics of a wheelbarrow. If you take my meaning..

I dont beleive Canon with the 1DS MKIII or Nikon with their packages are in any real danger from the likes of Sony [assuming sony OEM their own DSLR for their sensor] as Canon and Nikon have their DSLR packages so refined.

To this end also I think MF camera manufacturers such as a Phase and Leaf are safe for quite some time to come.

Its exciting to see another high count mega pixel full frame sensor coming to market - and no doubt Nikon will shoe horn it into their 1dS MKIII competitor - but its not a reason for jumping ship from Canon or for ditching a MF set-up.

given the choice I would rather a MF 25 megapixel phase one or leaf than a Sony DSLR with equivalent megapixels.

Phew.. that ended up a bit of a rant.. and I meant it to be an opinion only...
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  Don't forget that the Sony cams are still being designed by Minolta engineers, and one of main reasons to choose Sony is their ergonomics.  You can control every shooting function with your right hand and eye at the viewfinder.  

  Sony showed their FF camera today, and from what I've heard from reliable sources, it will be a competitor to the next 5D....with resolution greater than the 1Ds III.   So, think around $3500 USD.  It will be a really interesting bridge camera between pro and semi pro.   Not to mention it has in-body stabilization  
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Quentin on January 31, 2008, 08:03:45 pm
Quote
  Sony showed their FF camera today, and from what I've heard from reliable sources, it will be a competitor to the next 5D....with resolution greater than the 1Ds III.   So, think around $3500 USD.  It will be a really interesting bridge camera between pro and semi pro.   Not to mention it has in-body stabilization 
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The final Sony high-end camera, 25mp, good handling, Zeiss lenses and a body price of $3,500?  What will that do to the price of the 1Ds III, and how about the upcoming Nikon D3x?   Looks like a bit of a price war at the high end of 35mm.

Quentin
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 31, 2008, 08:30:50 pm
Quote
The final Sony high-end camera, 25mp, good handling, Zeiss lenses and a body price of $3,500?  What will that do to the price of the 1Ds III, and how about the upcoming Nikon D3x?   Looks like a bit of a price war at the high end of 35mm.

It would be way awesome if Canon had to drop their 1Ds-III price to compete. I don't intend on switching brands, but that kind of competition can't possibly be bad for what I'll pay for future bodies.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: douglasf13 on January 31, 2008, 09:05:50 pm
Quote
It would be way awesome if Canon had to drop their 1Ds-III price to compete. I don't intend on switching brands, but that kind of competition can't possibly be bad for what I'll pay for future bodies.
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No kidding, the competition is great.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: dwdallam on February 01, 2008, 03:56:31 am
Don't bet on it. Do you remeber the Sony F828 8MP camera? For those of us who ahve had both the Sony F828 and the Canon/Nikon bodies, I can tell you that the F828 was the most ergonomic camera I have ever held. Beautiful feel to it.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/ (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/)

Never count Sony out of anything it sets its collective mind to. If it makes a 12bit 24MB sensors, I think it will flop simply because it cannot match tonality of 14 bit sensors. However, if Sony can get their 12bit sensor to equal the tonality of Canon's etc 14 bit sensor, then it's on.

We have to remember that even though Canon and Nikon have been producing cameras before Sony was even a company, Camera making is 90% electronics now, and Sony has been doing electronics since it's original founding father hatched the company in a bomb shack in 1945 after WWII. Sony knows electronics.



Quote
Can I just make a point here: And I think its a valid one - but please correct me if its not.

Having a 24+ megapixel full frame 35mm sensor is wonderful - no question. But its one element ONLY in a DSLR that contributes toward a useable desireable product.

What about all the other elements, ergonomics, lens selection, noise, ad infinitum...

I guess what I am trying to say is I would rather a 12 mega pixel 35mm DSLR that had the right 'package' than a 24 mega pixel DSLR that had the ergonimics of a wheelbarrow. If you take my meaning..

I dont beleive Canon with the 1DS MKIII or Nikon with their packages are in any real danger from the likes of Sony [assuming sony OEM their own DSLR for their sensor] as Canon and Nikon have their DSLR packages so refined.
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Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Christopher on February 01, 2008, 03:59:45 am
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No kidding, the competition is great.
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Yes dropping the prices is one option but really ? I mean they can't just drop the price of the 1DsMk3 to 5000 than they had to drop the price of the 1DMk3, too. Another problems is that quite a few people will be quite pissed at Canon if they drop the price nearly around 40% in the first year of its release. It really will be interesting for how much the Sony is actually selling.


If sony REALLY can sell a 24MP for 3500 it won't flopp, most people won't spend 4500 more just to get from 12 to 14 bit.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Dinarius on February 01, 2008, 04:00:45 am
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No kidding, the competition is great.
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It sure is, and the real competition will be in the glass. Once they start comparing the Zeiss optics side by side with Canon's things should get very interesting.

D.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Christopher on February 01, 2008, 04:01:44 am
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It sure is, and the real competition will be in the glass. Once they start comparing the Zeiss optics side by side with Canon's things should get very interesting.

D.
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Interesting and very bad for Canon :-P
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: dwdallam on February 01, 2008, 04:08:28 am
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Interesting and very bad for Canon :-P
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Don't think so. Canon can make any level lens YOU can pay for.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Dinarius on February 01, 2008, 04:23:18 am
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Don't think so. Canon can make any level lens YOU can pay for.
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dwdallam,

Perhaps you've been away.....  

But, the failure of some of Canon's lenses to match their new 21Mp sensor is being discussed over the entire web, including here>

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22463]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=22463[/url]

I, for one, agree.

D.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: dwdallam on February 01, 2008, 04:45:10 am
Quote
dwdallam,

Perhaps you've been away.....   

But, the failure of some of Canon's lenses to match their new 21Mp sensor is being discussed over the entire web, including here>

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=22463 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22463)

I, for one, agree.

D.
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I agree with that too. But it does not mean Canon can't make the lenses better. The technology is already out there.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Christopher on February 01, 2008, 10:22:14 am
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I agree with that too. But it does not mean Canon can't make the lenses better. The technology is already out there.
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Yeah Canon and lenses ... hm I don't know of any Canon lens wider than 35 which really is good .... Mid range zoom ? nothing The only lenses Canon can make is everything from 70 up to 800.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Mike Chini on February 01, 2008, 11:46:37 am
This is all great news.  I think we'll eventually get back to where we were 10 years ago with numerous brands from which to choose.  Let's see that 1ds3 drop in price sooner rather than later!
And what is Canon doing about lenses???  I get the impression they don't see a problem.  I'm tempted to switch to Nikon just to get the Zeiss optics.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: Mike Chini on February 01, 2008, 11:49:00 am
Oh yeah...and can we PLEASE get a P&S with a real sensor!?!
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: jjj on February 01, 2008, 11:58:17 am
Sigma DP1 is finally coming out in the Spring.
Title: Sony announce full size CMOS Sensor with 24.81MP
Post by: douglasf13 on February 01, 2008, 08:50:27 pm
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Oh yeah...and can we PLEASE get a P&S with a real sensor!?!
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  No kidding!!