Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Snook on October 16, 2007, 12:35:17 pm
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OK guys , I am getting ready to jump the gun and either go Phase P30,P25 refurbished or Leaf Aptus 22.
Just wanted to get one last opinion from all the wise guys here as to which is better?
Anybody want to add their personal experiences with either or both and any cons and pros of both.
Un fortunately I have to make my decision with out even being able to try either out so I am relying on forums.
Where I live I have no option to try anything out and do not have time to go to the US and try something out, so I have decided to just get one or the other.
I like the idea that leaf is supported by many Programs, even photoshop supposedly.
But I also have been using C-1 for many years and know it very well.
Here is a little history of what I shoot.
Been shooting Canon 1Ds 1DsMII for several years. I have recently bought a Mamiya AFDII with 55-100 and 35mm lens. Plan on getting the 120mm Macro for sure.
I shoot Fashion and plan on keeping the 1DsMII for catalogue etc.. I want the MFDB for advertising clients and personal fashion stuff.
I do like to shoot tethered in studio only.
I never shoot above 100 asa even with my 5D and 1DsMII.. occasionally when necessary I shoot asa 400 but rarely.
Not sure if I am forgetting anything but I sure do miss medium format from the film days and am exciting to get back into it.
Thanks for any help, I would greatly appreciate it as I have no options but you all..
Thanks
Snook
Forgot to add that I like the 25 asa option on the Leaf as I can bring down shutter speed and still over power the Sun in daylight.
Also there might be a remote chance of getting an Mamiya RZ proIID in the future. Which would be a less hassle to buy an adapter for using it with an RZ also?? Not so important but might help way one over the other....
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you should really test them...everybody who decided for one or the other had their reasons, but they might not be important to you....
i find the P30 the best all around back for the best price....tons of resolution, fast shooting, high ASA, zero problems, the most stable software package, files can be read in LR, CS..can't go wrong....
as you know i now shoot with the RZ exclusively....
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The P30 has a higher crop factor which makes wide shooting more difficult and I believe it's also unsuitable for use on a view camera with tilt/shift due to the microlenses. If those issues don't matter to you, great. Just balancing the review
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Hey Paul I actually bought the Mamiya from you as you may know..
You stated that P30 files can be opened in several programs..? I thought that Phase files could only be opened in C-1?
You can open them in Photoshop cs3 RAW converter as well..
Did not know that.. Can you confirm that with me.
Thanks
Snook
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Hi
Shooting fashion........Aptus 22 @1.2 f/s. I would consider the 545s which is the same back but shoots at about .9 f/s. The new leaf version 11 is excellent. I was shooting yesterday with the Aptus 22, V 11 & the Mamiya 645 AFDII. I believe Leaf has the fastest backs on the market especially with there latest S series backs. I shot with the Aptus 65 but I found it too slow compared to the Aptus 22.
Then again the Aptus 65 is an older generation back now. The skin quality on the Leaf is beautiful.
Thanks Denis
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Hey Paul I actually bought the Mamiya from you as you may know..
You stated that P30 files can be opened in several programs..? I thought that Phase files could only be opened in C-1?
You can open them in Photoshop cs3 RAW converter as well..
Did not know that.. Can you confirm that with me.
Thanks
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
open in CS3 RAW and adobe Lightroom....no problem...P+files as well with the latest release...i only use C1 to shoot tethered into LR...from then on it is all LR for me.....
P30 has a slightly (barely noticeable) crop factor, really only an issue with WA and according to phase does not like T/S (movements)......
i would also recomend looking at the P21...really a great back a friend of mine shoot swith one www.rainerhosch.com...check it out....faster then the P30, same size, 18mpix....
eitehr way, really test each system.....and don't forget about the emotion/sinar backs either...
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The P30 is a great MFDB. I use a Phase P30 with Mamiya 645AFD.
Just to make clear, the P30 may produce some difficulites with LF view cameras because of the microlenses. The P30 is absolutely fine with MF t/s lenses such as the Hartblei 45mm t/s super rotator---I have had no problems whatsoever.
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Snook,
Where are you located that you can't get to a dealer and try these out? You're talking about a pretty major investment here!
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Hey Snook, check your Mamiya body has the right firmware to run the Phase back, if it isn't a new one. You can get this done while you're waiting on the back to come, not after you're got it! (Like me! Cough Cough!)
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PSS... Do you know if mine has the right firmware update??
Seriously I have not even seen the camera yet. It was shipped to my family's house and forget my Father checking the firmware update...???
But it would be really important to know as I should have it updated before I ship everything..
Paul do you know if it had the latest update?
I know it is a AFDII...
Thanks for the heads up..:+}
Snook
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I would (and did) get a Sinar e22 over a P25 for a few reasons: adapter system gives you flexibility over different mounts, built in 3GB solid state memory, better LCD screen, and the e22 is a lot faster (1.2s per shot for the e22, 1.7s for the P25).
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OK guys , I am getting ready to jump the gun and either go Phase P30,P25 refurbished or Leaf Aptus 22.
Just wanted to get one last opinion from all the wise guys here as to which is better?
Anybody want to add their personal experiences with either or both and any cons and pros of both.
Un fortunately I have to make my decision with out even being able to try either out so I am relying on forums.
Where I live I have no option to try anything out and do not have time to go to the US and try something out, so I have decided to just get one or the other.
I like the idea that leaf is supported by many Programs, even photoshop supposedly.
But I also have been using C-1 for many years and know it very well.
Here is a little history of what I shoot.
Been shooting Canon 1Ds 1DsMII for several years. I have recently bought a Mamiya AFDII with 55-100 and 35mm lens. Plan on getting the 120mm Macro for sure.
I shoot Fashion and plan on keeping the 1DsMII for catalogue etc.. I want the MFDB for advertising clients and personal fashion stuff.
I do like to shoot tethered in studio only.
I never shoot above 100 asa even with my 5D and 1DsMII.. occasionally when necessary I shoot asa 400 but rarely.
Not sure if I am forgetting anything but I sure do miss medium format from the film days and am exciting to get back into it.
Thanks for any help, I would greatly appreciate it as I have no options but you all..
Thanks
Snook
Forgot to add that I like the 25 asa option on the Leaf as I can bring down shutter speed and still over power the Sun in daylight.
Also there might be a remote chance of getting an Mamiya RZ proIID in the future. Which would be a less hassle to buy an adapter for using it with an RZ also?? Not so important but might help way one over the other....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was impressed with the Leaf Aptus 65s everything with regards to files, setting up shooting was great.
When the search for quality was over, I realized two things that bothered me, first the price and the second the way that battery stands out because it just feels awkward.
Regardless if you go Leaf Aptus 65s or Phase P30+, I'm sure your end result will look great!!!
All I can hope for Hasselblad, Sinar, Leaf & Phase is to realize that they can't continue to drive the customers into $20,000 to $30,000 investments FOREVER!!!
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Just wanted to get one last opinion from all the wise guys here as to which is better?
Unfortunately I have to make my decision with out even being able to try either out so I am relying on forums. Where I live I have no option to try anything out and do not have time to go to the US and try something out, so I have decided to just get one or the other.
I want the MFDB for advertising clients and personal fashion stuff.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The final decision is you get the A22 for the best and most film-like fashion and skintone file. If you are not Mac based you give the PC to your children with your blessings, not only so you can use LC11, but because you should have been Mac based years ago (I also live across the street from Apple headquarters). If you are not happy with the A22 let me know. I'll reimburse you your costs for sending you down the wrong road.
David
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PSS... Do you know if mine has the right firmware update??
Seriously I have not even seen the camera yet. It was shipped to my family's house and forget my Father checking the firmware update...???
But it would be really important to know as I should have it updated before I ship everything..
Paul do you know if it had the latest update?
I know it is a AFDII...
Thanks for the heads up..:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146459\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it is the latest version of the camera (645afdII) and i shot with the P30 on it without any problems....i believe there were some problems with the 645afd....and maybe with the 28mm lens? not sure about that....
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it is the latest version of the camera (645afdII) and i shot with the P30 on it without any problems....i believe there were some problems with the 645afd....and maybe with the 28mm lens? not sure about that....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks alot....Pss...:+}
I have heard so many times that the Skintones and "Film" like look is better with the Aptus 22..
Will let you guys know what my decision is in the end.. That is if you guys care....?:+}
One dealer told me he already sold all his Aptus 22's...?
But I am sure they will pop up again...
Thanks guys for your inputs..
Snook
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it is the latest version of the camera (645afdII) and i shot with the P30 on it without any problems....i believe there were some problems with the 645afd....and maybe with the 28mm lens? not sure about that....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
FYI, mine is an AFDII, and has just gone to the service centre for firmware upgrade. If yours worked with a P30, I'm sure it'll be fine!
(Mine just locked the camera and back, after popping the mirror up (judging by the sound))
We'll see what happens when it returns!
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...but because you should have been Mac based years ago...
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry David, that's nonsense. Whether Mac or PC (well, they're all pc's now) is right depends on a number of factors.
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Thanks...
By the way I have been Macintosh since the beginning and currently have 6 Mac computers between studio and home... All the flavors..:+}
Snook
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I would add that you should consider a used back as well as refurbished. You'll pay less than you would pay for the refurbished back; although I would still go through a dealer so you get a back with a known history an an ear to yell into when you have problems. We have a constantly changing stock of used back, as will many dealers.
I would also point out that files from both P and P+ series can be opened in the most recent version of Adobe Camera Raw. This is a fairly recent development.
Doug
[email protected]
www.captureintegration.com
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Thanks Doug. I should have stated that I am looking for a Refurbished back for sure.
I also do not think the + series are worth the upgrade from my researching. I know others may have a different opinion, but from what I can see there is not enough difference to pay for a new + series.
In any case I am leaning torwards the Leaf as many have told me it is better with skin tones and I do mainly fashion stuff. So that helps me.
Thanks
Snook
One dealer had some aptus 22 but said they went really fast...
I guess I'll have to wait until some more show up.
PS. Anybody know what the Leaf S series go for more or less? I need the smallest of them all which I beleive is the 54s?
How can I find prices for Leaf S series backs just to have an idea?
Thanks alot
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Does anybody know if Leaf has any service in South America..?
Unfortunately I might have to go with Phase one as they are the only ones in my country that have service for Phase One...
So currently looking at a refurbished P30.
Thanks for more information
Snook
PS. Does anybody have an opinion on skin tones with P30? Or how would you compare them to the skin tones with the Canon 1DsMII?
Thanks for any further information. Also I posted in another forum if any body could kindly send me a P30 File preferably some kind of studio Portrait or fashion shot.
Thanks again
Snook
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Does anybody know if Leaf has any service in South America..?
Unfortunately I might have to go with Phase one as they are the only ones in my country that have service for Phase One...
So currently looking at a refurbished P30.
Thanks for more information
Snook
PS. Does anybody have an opinion on skin tones with P30? Or how would you compare them to the skin tones with the Canon 1DsMII?
Thanks for any further information. Also I posted in another forum if any body could kindly send me a P30 File preferably some kind of studio Portrait or fashion shot.
Thanks again
Snook
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=148084\")
Snook we have dealers in Brazil and Argentina, you can find their contact details on [a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/ShowDoc.asp?MenuID=310]our website[/url]
PR
Yair
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Yair do you know any body in particular? I go argentina a lot and probably would not be such a problem to send there if I had problems..
Where do they service Leaf?
Please let me know. Also do you know if I buy in the US and I live in South America would they have to hold up on the Leaf warranty or do I have to deal with my dealer only?
Please let me know asap.
Thanks
Snook
PS. Just sent someone there an e-mail and it came back with an error message right away.
Let me know if you can get some kind of contact for me.
Thank you!
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Yair do you know any body in particular? I go argentina a lot and probably would not be such a problem to send there if I had problems..
Where do they service Leaf?
Please let me know. Also do you know if I buy in the US and I live in South America would they have to hold up on the Leaf warranty or do I have to deal with my dealer only?
Please let me know asap.
Thanks
Snook
PS. Just sent someone there an e-mail and it came back with an error message right away.
Let me know if you can get some kind of contact for me.
Thank you!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148146\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Most of the service and repairs can be done locally since the Aptus is designed as a modular system and our dealers go through the necessary training for it.
Buying locally (if possible) is always recommended as the back will be registered through the local dealer.
If you could e-mail me your contact details I will make sure that someone gets in touch with you ASAP and help you out.
Many thanks
Yair
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Snook: While we don't shoot the same type images (we do landscape and nature) it does look like we have similar camera kits as we also have a 1Ds II and 5D. We made the jump to MF earlier this year going with the Mamiya AFD II and finally a Phase One P30+ back. Back in my decision stages I also looked at a Leaf but later decided on Phase.
I know Ken Doo photography, having shot with him on a landscape location and seen his other work and agree that the P30 is a great MFDB. I also have shot with the Hartblei and experienced no problems.
Even buying refurbished you're still talking a major investment. Are you that sure you can't get to a city that has a dealer to check these backs out? Seems a major risk of a huge amount of money buying sight unseen or in this case tested. What we like about the Phase back may not fit into your workflow, likewise the same with Leaf.
This type of open ended question leads to open ended responses where everyone has opinions and aren't afraid to share them. Much like a discussion over the merits of a Ford vs. Dodge.
BTW - CS3 and LR both open Phase One without any problems whatsoever.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide.
....... Wait a minute - why not see if you can arrange for a long distance rental?
don
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Thanks Don and others for the Information.
I live in Santiago and No-body has either the leaf or Phase...
A friend of mine has just bought the P45+ but that is way over kill for our market.
Like I have stated in other post I have never really had any complaints about the 1DsMII or even the 5D for that matter. And I have Double page adverts and Billboards all over the city..:+]
I am doing it because I want to offer my client more "Quality" and my competition is marketing his P45 to death..:+]
I would also like to get back to where I started and that is with Medium format. I like the Bigger viewfinder etc...
I have always disclike the 35mm size.. Don't ask why but I do and I do not use ANY of the options the 1DsMII has to offer. I shoot the same ALL the time. 100 ASA full manual except for Focus which I also hate on the Canon. I picked my old Pro Tl the other day playing around and I could focus easily with the Split Screen which I also installed on the CAnon but not the same.
BAck to the problem is that I live in the boon docks and there are no reps with AFDII anywhere I can find.
I also do not have the time to go to New York or where ever and try anything.
I basically have narrowed down to the Aptus 22 or the P30 not Plus. Besides those 2 I do not see any other options and Hassleblad is out of the question for the Money and I do not like the locked to body back deal. Makes upgrading a pain if not impossible, Quite dumb Marketing idea if you ask me..:+]
Thanks for you help
Snook
PS.
YAYA send me an e-mail @ [email protected]
Thank you
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The whole "Leaf has better skin tones than Phase", and the other way around for that matter, is total bullshit. It's all in your editing nowadays anyway. I shoot high-end fashion editorials with a P25 and I can get a "film" or digital look depending on how I choose to do my post production. So don't let that sway your decision either way. I for one found the fan-less cooling of the Phase back to be a big plus in my decision making.
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P30 it is...
For any who care...
Snook
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Congratulations! I am sure you will not be disappointed. Show us some results as well.
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Will do for sure.
I shoot just fashion mainly but when I travel I shoot a lot of Stock for myself and Clients and because I like too..
So I'll try and post a little of both..
Snook
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You already took your path. I have shoot with both Phase One and Leaf. I also shoot fashion. Phase One has more saturated tones than Leaf, helps with landscape, but Leaf gives you much more soft skin tones. The P30 has a base ISO of 100 which will feel at home with what you normally use. The Aptus 22 has a base ISO of 25 whitch is 2 full stops under 100. That means underexpose your canon by 6 clicks (if you are using 1/3 stops).
On a bright California day. With ISO 25, and a usable f/8-16 (less than 8 has very narrow DOF) not to mention the bigger size of the sensor also means less DOF on any aperture. The speed to use in that situation is 1/30 to 1/60. And pray for no wind if you are doing outdoors.
Perhaps the P30 was the best option. Though now you are under your competition and try to gain market with a P30 against a P45.
I have the Aptus 22 and I love it and I hate it. But I don't think I would go back to Phase One. I do like the Aptus files.
My 2cnts
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You do see that you reply to a 5 year old post ;)
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You do see that you reply to a 5 year old post ;)
Yes I saw that.
I just started fashion photography professionally 2 years ago, have shoot the 2011 Elite Models Calendar in India and while I was there I shoot for Marie Claire Magazine, also Shoot several campaigns in Japan, not to mention USA, winners or contestants of America's Next Top Model including winner Naima Mora, winner CariDee English and All Star Bre Skullark.
And even I was not aware of this post for 5 years. I recently got my Leaf Aptus 22. And was searching for info on it. I don't care if it's an old post, the backs are still for sale and many people might find this informative.
Thank you for your consern. 8)
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long exposure : P25+ and P30+
skin tones : Aptus 22 (iso 25)
large screen: Aptus 22 (iso 25)
100, 200 iso : P30+
mouvements with technical camera : Ap22 or P25+