Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ben decamp on August 19, 2007, 11:33:26 am
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Due to Mamiya's prolific generation of camera models, I am left confused as to the advantages of certain models for sports photography despite hours of research. My intentions are to use a 24mm fisheye for surf photography inside a waterhousing to swim in the waves. I've narrowed it down to the 645 super, 645 pro TL, 645 afd ii becuase they can achieve shutter speeds of at least 1/1000th. If the first two models don't do what I want I will spring the cash on the AFD ii.
Here are some features I am looking/hoping for:
1) Auto frame advance with a speed grip
2) Fastest frames per second FPS
3) Lightest weight/ compact size
4) Digital back compatible
5) Autofocus is also a thought for surfing photos from the beach.
If all else fails I am also looking into a Pentax 67ii with fisheye, but regretably I believe it cannot accept a digital back.
Many of you might argue why am I trying to move from 35mm and it's practicality for sports photography, and the reason is the image quality. I am frustrated with blowing my photos up to 20x30 and seeing image quality degradation. Thanks for all of your help.
-Ben
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Any thoughts?
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Digital back choices with the 645 Pro or Super are very limited, i.e. practically none. So, that leaves the 645 AFD or AFD II.
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And with full-frame covering a fisheye sensor, it seems I am limited to the AFD-ii with the P45 back as my only option?
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Due to Mamiya's prolific generation of camera models, I am left confused as to the advantages of certain models for sports photography despite hours of research. My intentions are to use a 24mm fisheye for surf photography inside a waterhousing to swim in the waves. I've narrowed it down to the 645 super, 645 pro TL, 645 afd ii becuase they can achieve shutter speeds of at least 1/1000th. If the first two models don't do what I want I will spring the cash on the AFD ii.
Here are some features I am looking/hoping for:
1) Auto frame advance with a speed grip
2) Fastest frames per second FPS
3) Lightest weight/ compact size
4) Digital back compatible
5) Autofocus is also a thought for surfing photos from the beach.
If all else fails I am also looking into a Pentax 67ii with fisheye, but regretably I believe it cannot accept a digital back.
Many of you might argue why am I trying to move from 35mm and it's practicality for sports photography, and the reason is the image quality. I am frustrated with blowing my photos up to 20x30 and seeing image quality degradation. Thanks for all of your help.
-Ben
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Ben,
I have the 24mm fisheye for my Mamiya ZD Camera. It is a manual focus lens that you need to use stepped down metering on. Thus it is slow to work with. Although DOF field is large for this lens, for the condition you are describing perhaps a 1Ds Mk II/III with AF fisheye is better?
Bear in mind also that medium format is much slower than DSLR and generally has a much more shallow DOF. Perhaps DSLR is more right for your use?
The 24mm fisheye is also discontinued. It does show up on Ebay on occassion. I found mine new in Hong Kong last month.
Regards
Anders
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Currently I am using Canon's range of DSLR's, but I found myself wanting to make gigantic prints for art galleries. I still love the colors of 120 film. Even though there isn't a beefed-up motor drive on the Mamiya, I think it could work to make some great photos for my application.
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Currently I am using Canon's range of DSLR's, but I found myself wanting to make gigantic prints for art galleries. I still love the colors of 120 film. Even though there isn't a beefed-up motor drive on the Mamiya, I think it could work to make some great photos for my application.
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On a 48x36 sensor the 24mm equals a 17mm fish on 135 terms.
Given you know challenge, if you succeed well it will be spectacular.
Art
Regards
Anders
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Anders-
I think it's similar to crop factor with digital cameras. That is the reason why I want to wait for a cheaper full frame digitial back in the next few years to fully utilize the 24mm fisheye to appear like a 15mm on a 135 system.
Thanks,
Ben
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One option is the manual focus 645 PRO TL whichis designed to work with the 24 fish eye lens
Sinar backs are available (or were) with a 645 PRO TL Fitting
My experience ofthe ProTL is that is hard to focus becuase of its dark screen
But if you just go for say 2meters focus at f11 it could be the thing
I wouldnt use the fisheye on the MAM AF series bodies becuase it is stop down only (ie dark) but it does work but no AF either
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A modern mamiya 28mm lens will have AF and a simlar angle of view to the fisheye nearly and no distortion
I suppose you could digitally add a fisheye effect afterwards if that floats your boat (!) - most people use software to remove the fisheye effect
Probably the best option is the H3d with a 28 - fast good AF
I will report soon on my H1 in housing
SMM
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One option is the manual focus 645 PRO TL whichis designed to work with the 24 fish eye lens
Sinar backs are available (or were) with a 645 PRO TL Fitting
My experience ofthe ProTL is that is hard to focus becuase of its dark screen
But if you just go for say 2meters focus at f11 it could be the thing
I wouldnt use the fisheye on the MAM AF series bodies becuase it is stop down only (ie dark) but it does work but no AF either
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A modern mamiya 28mm lens will have AF and a simlar angle of view to the fisheye nearly and no distortion
I suppose you could digitally add a fisheye effect afterwards if that floats your boat (!) - most people use software to remove the fisheye effect
Probably the best option is the H3d with a 28 - fast good AF
I will report soon on my H1 in housing
SMM
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Sinar and Hasselblad backs are available for the Mamiya Pro & Pro TL and the view finders on the Pro TL is not as dark as a Pentax 6x7, Bronica S2A, Kowa Super66, Hasselblad 500CM, now those are dark finders. The Pro & Pro TL is as bright as my Nikon F100 viewfinder
db
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Can we discuss the differences between the 645 pro TL and 645 super? Are there any features lacking from one model to the other, or tricky user configurations that make it hard to operate? Thank you.
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Can we discuss the differences between the 645 pro TL and 645 super? Are there any features lacking from one model to the other, or tricky user configurations that make it hard to operate? Thank you.
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Sorry cant help on the differences.
I have only ever had a TL - looks like the lenses/lens mount is the same
If the film back mount is the same then would work with TL compatable backs ??
If I am not wrong the TL is more advanced and should be a little more user friendly and so cheap now does it matter?
In terms of using the TL with film you can fire it if the darkslide is only removed 'a bit' causing blank frames - I gues that would count as a tricky user configuration !
I am still not sure that you shouldnt go with an AFD2 with AF for all other lenses exept the fish (which will be stopped down and dark to look through)
Depends on your budget and ratio of water to non water work
Even better have a TL for water with the fisheye and an H1 for land (you need a sinar or hassy back for this to be possible)
S
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Do you mean to say that when I use the 24mm it will stop down, so that I have to use f/8 instead of f/5.6 for example, or only that the viewfinder is dark? Thanks I appreciate all the help I've been getting here.
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The only similarity is the lens mount and the name. The rest of the body is completely different.
In my opinion, for what you are looking to do you have two options.
Hasselblad H3D with their 28mm lens
Mamiya 645 AFDII with their 28mm len and a P45 back
I would advise the Mamiya PhaseOne solution for your needs. Let's you grow into a 300mm/2.8 lens with a 2.0x extender for shooting from the Beach. Talk about an amazing combo and the ability to blow up as big as you want.
The other option is to have your Canon files once tweaked and finalized made into an LVT chrome or neg and then a print made from that. I have had some great results from this.
Best of luck
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Do you mean to say that when I use the 24mm it will stop down, so that I have to use f/8 instead of f/5.6 for example, or only that the viewfinder is dark? Thanks I appreciate all the help I've been getting here.
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The 24 and all mamiya manual lenses.
on the PRO TL they work normally stopping down just automatically before the exposure
on the 645afd they dont communicate with the camera but do fit.
So you manually stop them down (making the vieing image dark)
Typically people stop down just before they take thier picture say on a tripod or , like I used to, go for a compromise setting like F4 which you can both compose with and shoot at
S
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Ben,
Bear in mind that Mamiya 24mm fisheye on a ZD has very large DOF, thus perhaps the stepped down metering is not much of an issue?
N.F. is 0.3m.
HF at f4 = 3.72m
HF at f22 = 0.68
Per my calculations DOF at f4;
@0.3m 0.05m
@2m 3m
@4m infinity
Regards
Anders
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hey ben peeped your site, nice water work man.
seems like a big step to use MF for that stuff...
gotta be another way to make enlargements of that size than
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Can we discuss the differences between the 645 pro TL and 645 super? Are there any features lacking from one model to the other, or tricky user configurations that make it hard to operate? Thank you.
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Ben,
The only difference in the Super from the Pro TL is the built quality and the TTL feature with flash of the Pro TL. The super is not near as rugged as the Pro or Pro TL. That includes the exterior shell as well as the metal gears inside the motor drive and film magazines as well. All parts that fit the Super will work on the Pro & Pro TL and vice versa. The leaf shutter lenses 55mm, 80mm 150mm LS cannot not be cocked by the Super's motor drive, only the Pro 401 motor drive will cock the leaf shutter lenses. Here is the evolution of the mamiya 645 system, Mamiya 645, 645 1000S, 645j then the interchangeable back system was developed into the Mamiya Super, Mamiya Pro, Mamiya Pro TL, Mamiya AF, Mamiya AFD, and last Mamiya AFD II.
I currently own a Super, Pro and Pro TL bodies and 10 mamiya lens. The Pro & Pro TL are beefer more like a Hasselblad 500cm or Pentax 6x7 in built qaility. Only Sinar makes a adapter for the SUPER body, Hasselblad and Sinar make adapters for the Pro and Pro TL. Why Leaf and Phase do not make a adapter for the Pro & Pro TL bodies just blows my mind, talk about a lost oppurtunity on there part.
Hope this helps you.
db
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Anders- That stepped down metering isn't an issue. I just need about 2 meters at around f/5.6 and looks like I can do that.
Jim- Thanks man I didn't even realize I had my site listed, but I listed it now in my signature. The lack of a burst mode will be hard for this kind of photography, but I think the results could be well worth it. After 20 x30 prints, I see the quality reduce in my prints and it's something I want to avoid. I'm hoping to make prints around 5 feet on the longest side with this format.
David-Thanks for breaking it down between the models. It clears up a lot of my misconceptions, as well as realizing the compaitiblity for the future when I save up enough for a Phase/Hasselblad back.
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ben - you didnt, I googled you...I'm a skater/snow/surfer...
I think there are options out there to still use 35mm FF cameras. the new 1Ds MK3 or MK2 w/ high end optics (ie zeis or the like w/ an adapter) might be able to coax more out of the image.
uprez, and some work in the conversion and sharpening will help. plus rez goes down after you hit the 24x36" (@350DPI) litho quality mark, seriously, look into it...might be able to find something and save yourself some agony AND bread...
just my $.02
good luck - most of all keep making killer water images
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Now when I shoot on shutter priority with a 645 AF and 24mm fisheye, and set it on 1/1000th of a second, will the aperture change automatically internally even though there is an aperture ring on the lens? For example from f/8 to f/4 if all of a sudden there is a darker scene?
Thank you,
Ben
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Now when I shoot on shutter priority with a 645 AF and set it on 1/1000th of a second, will the aperture change automatically internally even though there is an aperture ring on the lens? For example from f/8 to f/4 if all of a sudden there is a darker scene?
Thank you,
Ben
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I figure you are talking a manual lens
NO I dont think so
You may be able to fool shutter priority into working though
(you would need to compensate the ISO by how many stop down the lens was)
S
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Why Leaf and Phase do not make a adapter for the Pro & Pro TL bodies just blows my mind, talk about a lost oppurtunity on there part.
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Not really a lost opportunity, in fact one gained probably, you want a digital back so you buy a new camera system.
I have a full 645 system, then went out and bought a pro body for my eyelike back and now recently bought a whole new afdII for my leaf, so they have had a few £$ out of me when you consider lenses etc.
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Do guys actually spend 12 grand on that waterhousing? I am looking to use mine for non-diving purposes. I was hoping for 6x4.5 format because 6x6 doesn't crop well for the surf magazines. Thanks guys.
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Would another camera also be within your field of interest? I would suggest a Rolleiflex 6008 with a Rolleimarin underwater housing. You can get a dome port for that housing which allows the Zeiss fish-eye to be used. Will give you 6x6 frames (great for waves rolling over) on film.
http://www.cambridgeworld.com/Rollei_Under...0_uw_camera.htm (http://www.cambridgeworld.com/Rollei_Underwater_Cameras/rollei_rolleimarin_6000_uw_camera.htm)
http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/image...alesguide_A.pdf (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/6008AF_i2_Salesguide_A.pdf)
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Will this particular housing be able to accommodate new Hy6 Rollei with x/Digital Back?