Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 15, 2021, 03:39:39 am

Title: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 15, 2021, 03:39:39 am
Greetings,
 
I am debating whether to buy a 24" Canon or Epson Large format printer for Fine Art printing. My Artwork (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com/painting) is in Adobe RGB 1998.

Here, we have a choice between the Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-521 (https://in.canon/en/business/imageprograf-pro-521/product?category=printing&subCategory=large-format-printers) and the Epson SureColor SC-P7530 (https://www.epson.co.in/For-Work/Printers/Large-Format/Epson-SureColor-SC-P7530-Photo-Graphic-Production-Printer/p/C11CH12403)


I'll be running tests on different paper types, Hahnemuhle, Epson, Canon, and Ilford - perhaps Baryta Silk/ Satin and Metallic Equivalents (not sure yet).

I have two questions:

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Regards,
Rajnesh Domalpalli (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com)
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: aaronchan on September 15, 2021, 05:25:00 am
Quote from: RajneshDomalpalli on September 15, 2021, 03:39:39 am
Greetings,
 
I am debating whether to buy a 24" Canon or Epson Large format printer for Fine Art printing. My Artwork (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com/painting) is in Adobe RGB 1998.

Here, we have a choice between the Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-521 (https://in.canon/en/business/imageprograf-pro-521/product?category=printing&subCategory=large-format-printers) and the Epson SureColor SC-P7530 (https://www.epson.co.in/For-Work/Printers/Large-Format/Epson-SureColor-SC-P7530-Photo-Graphic-Production-Printer/p/C11CH12403)


I'll be running tests on different paper types, Hahnemuhle, Epson, Canon, and Ilford - perhaps Baryta Silk/ Satin and Metallic Equivalents (not sure yet).

I have two questions:
  • Are there good comparisons between the Color Gamuts (both 2D and 3D) of the Epson and Canons?
  • Any recommendations for the paper companies listed above. Canson is not available here.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Regards,
Rajnesh Domalpalli (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com)
After all these years of printing and running labs
My conclusion is don't just compare the color gamut when you want to buy a new printer.
I had a HP Z3200 which has the smallest gamut compare to the rest of my printers, 8300 and 7900 back in the time.
But the Z3200 makes the most beautiful print.
Another BUT, my workhorse was the 8300, mostly because the ease of use and the speed of it.
I have 6 epsons sitting in my lab now, including the P20000. to be honest, if time can goes back, i would pay a bit more to buy a canon Pro6100 (Pro561)

back to your question, I think the epson has a slightly larger gamut compare to the canon
that's it. :D

aaron
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: deanwork on September 15, 2021, 10:45:42 am
I totally agree with Aaron. Regarding the oem inksets of modern aqueous inkjet printers, they all have good gamut for photography. If you are specializing in match proofs for critical advertising work the most recent Epsons may have an edge in hitting certain hues, but for general photography it’s kind of a non-issue.

What I would be focused on is the precision of dot placement ( dither ) of the various offerings. Although the latest Epson models ( 9570 7570 ) are using 300 ppi as apposed to 360 ppi in the pipeline as in all previous Epson models, reports that I’ve seen are that there is no difference in clarity and smoothness of output.

I recently had prints made of two of my files by different high-end shops on the new Epson 9570, HP  Z9+, and Canon 4000. To me the Epson had the edge in color output and clearly superior black and white. The second best image quality, to my eyes, not using a magnifier, was the Epson P2000, then the Canon IPf 4000.

Again, with my experience, the dither differences between the three brands becomes more obvious at smaller print sizes say from 16x20 and smaller.  It also depends on the kind of work you are printing and quality of the file.

A will also point out that I don’t personally do a lot of ultra-saturated photography or graphic design work on a regular basis and rarely on rc media.  Those that do may have a different answer.  In my experience the quality of the icc profile is a much greater determinant of color clarity than a difference between the Canon and Epson practical gamut.

John




Quote from: aaronchan on September 15, 2021, 05:25:00 am
After all these years of printing and running labs
My conclusion is don't just compare the color gamut when you want to buy a new printer.
I had a HP Z3200 which has the smallest gamut compare to the rest of my printers, 8300 and 7900 back in the time.
But the Z3200 makes the most beautiful print.
Another BUT, my workhorse was the 8300, mostly because the ease of use and the speed of it.
I have 6 epsons sitting in my lab now, including the P20000. to be honest, if time can goes back, i would pay a bit more to buy a canon Pro6100 (Pro561)

back to your question, I think the epson has a slightly larger gamut compare to the canon
that's it. :D

aaron
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: arobinson7547 on September 15, 2021, 10:55:10 am
aaronchan,

I would have thought, for B&W work (I took a look at your link), the P20000 would sorta be the Holly Grail.  So I gotta ask, What has soured you on the P20000  to make you crave an IPF6100, [other than the Grass being Greener on the other side of the Fence)

I'm guessing that the P20000 has be a little bit of a pain in the #ss (like most Epsons with the Clogging and such)


Do tell....

As to the original question, I would also factor in weather you main media is Matte (Fine Art Papers/Canvas) or Coated Photo Papers
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: digitaldog on September 15, 2021, 11:53:15 am
No printer can print the full color gamut of even sRGB!
That said, if you provide a printer profile of each printer from the same paper I would be happy to plot the gamuts and report the gamut volume of each for you.
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 15, 2021, 12:04:31 pm
Thank you for your replies, aaronchan, arobinson7557, deanwork and digitaldog.

Digitaldog, I would love to take you up on your offer. Give me a few days to collect the materials.

I'm new to this world of printing, and excited to be part of this community.

My current expectation is to buy a 12 color ink 24" printer for my Digital Paintings (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com/painting).

But I've toyed with the idea of a 17" Epson P900+roll feeder too.

I have two questions:

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Best,
Rajnesh
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: digitaldog on September 15, 2021, 12:16:40 pm
I can't recommend papers, it is totally subjective. Just pick two of the same papers ideally of which you locate a profile (hopefully from the same source).
Number of inks per se mean little. The profiles will tell us more.
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: MichaelKoerner on September 15, 2021, 08:49:21 pm
Quote from: digitaldog on September 15, 2021, 12:16:40 pm
I can't recommend papers, it is totally subjective. Just pick two of the same papers ideally of which you locate a profile (hopefully from the same source).
Number of inks per se mean little. The profiles will tell us more.

+1
That said, both papers you mentioned are great. Hahn. FA Baryta Satin is rather warm for "bright, saturated artwork". FA Baryta contains OBAs, but is brighter. I tend to Innova IFA 40 - comparable characteristics, but cheaper.

Generally, after my first years of "Every tiny bit of quality counts, price does not matter. No OBAs allowed!" I'm now more pragmatic - printing costs tend to sum up :-)

In my experience (and as already said by others), the foundation of a great print lays heavily on proper file preparation, media settings and icc profiles. I recommend choosing one paper type (a cheaper one), learning how to get the maximum out of it and then switching to other papers.

You will love it :-)

Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 16, 2021, 07:28:47 am
Hi Michael Koerner, Thank you for your reply.

DigitalDog, I have downloaded 4 ICC profiles as shown for the two Printers and two Papers. Depending on your time, it would be wonderful to see Gamut (both 2D and 3D) from this data, so that we can compare them one against the other. The Links below point to my DropBox files.

Canon_iPF_Pro-2100 (12 Color)Hahnemuehle_FA_Baryta_SatinICC_Profile (https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6640x0dfwm9yxy/icc_profile_Hahnemuehle_FA_Baryta_Satin_Canon_iPF_Pro-2100.zip?dl=0)
Epson_SC-900 (10 Color)Hahnemuehle_FA_Baryta_SatinICC_Profile (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnhej792wzkc3zw/icc_profile_Hahnemuehle_FA_Baryta_Satin_Epson_SC-P900.zip?dl=0)
Canon_iPF_Pro-2100 (12 Color)Ilford_Baryta_Gold_Fiber_SilkICC Profile (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jqso2ws7h9lcnj6/icc_profile_Ilford_Gold_Fiber_Silk_Canon_iPF_Pro-2100.zip?dl=0)
Epson_SC-900 (10 Color)Ilford_Baryta_Gold_Fiber_SilkICC Profile (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jreft58mc6yf5aw/icc_profile_Ilford_Baryta_Gold_Fiber_Silk_Epson_SC-900.icc?dl=0)

I'm sure others may be interested too. Thank you for you time and effort.
Regards,
Rajnesh
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: digitaldog on September 16, 2021, 08:38:46 am
Upload the profiles to something like Dropbox and I will look them over.
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: Rand47 on September 16, 2021, 09:03:57 am
Quote from: RajneshDomalpalli on September 15, 2021, 12:04:31 pm
Thank you for your replies, aaronchan, arobinson7557, deanwork and digitaldog.

Digitaldog, I would love to take you up on your offer. Give me a few days to collect the materials.

I'm new to this world of printing, and excited to be part of this community.

My current expectation is to buy a 12 color ink 24" printer for my Digital Paintings (https://www.rajneshdomalpalli.com/painting).

But I've toyed with the idea of a 17" Epson P900+roll feeder too.

I have two questions:
  • I'm leaning on printing on Hahnemulle's Fineart Baryta Satin, but Ilford's Gold fiber Silk is priced 30% cheaper here. For bright, saturated artwork, great tonal range and rich blacks, could you please recommend a few choices of paper.
  • Finally, the P900 is a 10 color ink system, and I was wondering whether there was any good comparison data between this 10 ink system and a 12 ink system. Basically, how much more would I get in a print, going from 10 to 12 inks?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Best,
Rajnesh

I don’t want to rain on your parade, but both these papers you cite are no longer available.

Rand
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 16, 2021, 10:49:11 pm
Quote from: digitaldog on September 16, 2021, 08:38:46 am
Upload the profiles to something like Dropbox and I will look them over.

Hi Andrew Rodney (DigitalDog),
    As per your request, I updated the original message to have the links point to my DropBox files.
    Thanks again, for taking a look.

Best,
Rajnesh
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: digitaldog on September 17, 2021, 12:51:19 pm
So just looking at Gamut Volume, the difference between the Canon and Epson (FAB Satin), then 3D gamut (mostly reds).
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: digitaldog on September 17, 2021, 12:54:51 pm
Now with the Fiber paper, a different story, starting with Gamut Volume then 3D gamut map where Epson has a wider gamut in greens and a tad in yellows:
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: deanwork on September 17, 2021, 04:41:49 pm
The Epson reds and yellows are significantly more permanent than the Lucia Pro2 inkset.

And Canon removed their green ink to put in a poorly designed gloss enhancer. The previous Lucia inkset  ( IpF 8300-8400 ) was not only a lot more stable in terms of fade resistance but had much better green gamut and looked just as smooth or smoother on fiber gloss media.

I’ve heard rumors about a new Canon printer coming soon. If they would go back to their previous inkset I’d seriously consider it.

John




Quote from: digitaldog on September 17, 2021, 12:54:51 pm
Now with the Fiber paper, a different story, starting with Gamut Volume then 3D gamut map where Epson has a wider gamut in greens and a tad in yellows:
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: RajneshDomalpalli on September 18, 2021, 07:10:46 am
Quote from: digitaldog on September 17, 2021, 12:54:51 pm
Now with the Fiber paper, a different story, starting with Gamut Volume then 3D gamut map where Epson has a wider gamut in greens and a tad in yellows:

Thank you, enormously, Andrew.
This is quite an eye opener! I hadn't expected that between the best and worst cases there would be a 7.5% difference in Gamut Volume.

John, I'm really curious about the new Canon Printer. Since I'm planning on buying a new one, any further particulars about it would be greatly welcome.

Thanks again.
Regards,
Rajnesh
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: mearussi on September 18, 2021, 11:28:59 am
Quote from: deanwork on September 17, 2021, 04:41:49 pm
The Epson reds and yellows are significantly more permanent than the Lucia Pro2 inkset.

And Canon removed their green ink to put in a poorly designed gloss enhancer. The previous Lucia inkset  ( IpF 8300-8400 ) was not only a lot more stable in terms of fade resistance but had much better green gamut and looked just as smooth or smoother on fiber gloss media.

I’ve heard rumors about a new Canon printer coming soon. If they would go back to their previous inkset I’d seriously consider it.

John
That's why I've stuck with my 8300 and 6400. If Canon ever comes out with an improved inkset I might upgrade.
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: unesco on September 18, 2021, 12:04:00 pm
Canons 6/8300 and x400 had really wonderful inkset giving really great results - especially in greens. I do not know why they changed their formula...
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: aaronchan on September 18, 2021, 10:59:05 pm
Quote from: arobinson7547 on September 15, 2021, 10:55:10 am
aaronchan,

I would have thought, for B&W work (I took a look at your link), the P20000 would sorta be the Holly Grail.  So I gotta ask, What has soured you on the P20000  to make you crave an IPF6100, [other than the Grass being Greener on the other side of the Fence)

I'm guessing that the P20000 has be a little bit of a pain in the #ss (like most Epsons with the Clogging and such)


Do tell....

As to the original question, I would also factor in weather you main media is Matte (Fine Art Papers/Canvas) or Coated Photo Papers

Money
In China, the P20000 cost about 12300 USD
The Canon 6100 cost about 20000 USD
Since we are a very small lab, my boss picked the Epson.
Now we have been using the P20000 for about 2 years, we found a lot of minor problems with it.
One of the major issue is for the first 8cm, the ink drop registration is way off, no body knows why, even Epson. To avoid this issue, we will need to skip the first 8cm, leave it blank and problem solve.

aaron
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: JRSmit on September 19, 2021, 04:21:49 am
Aaron, could it be the curvature of the paper?
At least that is what we think. We skip indeed about 10cm.
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: deanwork on September 19, 2021, 11:35:08 am
Can Q-Image help with this?




quote author=JRSmit link=topic=139020.msg1224456#msg1224456 date=1632039709]
Aaron, could it be the curvature of the paper?
At least that is what we think. We skip indeed about 10cm.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Color Gamut of Canon Lucia Pro 12 Inks vs. Epson UltraChrome PRO12
Post by: arobinson7547 on September 20, 2021, 02:05:48 pm
This is acutely a very known issue. It is related to the design of the Printhead (Scattered rows).
It exist in the P10/20000, as well as, the newest P9570 (same head design).

The only solution is to advance/waste X mm of media at the beginning of the Print.

It is, what it is. And it's gonna be that way.