Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape & Nature Photography => Topic started by: howard smith on September 07, 2005, 05:13:49 pm
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Lisa and Tim, you show the value of multiple critics. Sometimes another can express the same idea better.
I do not consider myself a "curmudgeon." I just hate it when someone asks "what do you think?' and then says "wrong" wheen you answer. I didn't recognize this as a quiz.
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if i could remove that thread totally i shall do it certainly that's totally unconstructive and i desagree with boku it doesn't look like a familly but like a sect somehow
I am on more than 10 forum and never saw such an attitude !
Opinions are allways welcome but in any other photo forum you can see other fotos members and know in that way the real value of an opinion, any body can tell you crop here do this , do that, .... the main thing is WHO tells it
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As I've already indicated, if you are only interested in criticism from renouned photographers, then send a personal email to Michael.
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Most interestning thread.
Firstly, I would agree with those who feel the image might be more complete with a little trim of the left side of the frame. For my eye the edge of the frame works best at the point just by the edge of the small folliage in the bottom corner. This leaves enough of this portion to show the recession of the hills, which if it were my shot I would darken a little to remove any competition with the light on the water.
As for the question of how worthy those suggestions are without a picture of mine here for referernce. Does it matter?
I would like to think that any opinion should be of equal worth. I agree that someone with more experience might see further into the reasons why an image affects them in one direction or another but photography should be able to talk to anyone. I would be just as happy to please my local baker with an image as I would a legend like Charlie Waite, Ansell Adams or Joe Cornish.
(btw, I should add that I actually have no idea about the photographic competenace of my local baker. :: )
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yes edit your comment but plz don't hack, boku doesn't like it ...
I don't think any regular here on the LL forums think that "hacking" (it's not really hacking, it's breaking in, and just immature kids do it) is okay, it's not just boku.
In my opinion, whoever performs such acts, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in his or her country, and pay damages to those who have expenses tidying up afterwards.
In addition, I think it's completely dishonest to edit a post afterwards without leaving any mark showing that it was actually edited. Doing such a thing means that I know that I cannot trust anything such a person writes. That person does not have a backspine.
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thank you for comments and suggestions
french Alps beside Grenoble
(http://foto.ymalaya.net/forums/G/Monternay_4264_1000.jpg)
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ok
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Howard may be being a bit of a curmudgeon, but I agree with his view that the left 1/4 doesn't add to the picture (at least to me). If you see something useful there, I'd be interested in hearing what it is. I feel it's better balanced if the left portion is cropped off so the mountain peak is farther from the middle.
I'm not sure I'd increase the contrast. It would decrease the misty look, and I think the misty look works well here; I hope it's a major part of why you chose this image instead of a sunny-day image of the place.
Lisa
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I also think the brightish mist on the left of the photo is a major distraction which spoils the shot.
Of course, seberri makes a valid point. Why should he pay any attention to the comments of anonymous people who might sound as though they know something but whose own works might be as dull as ditch water (for all he knows).
I have no great desire to exhibit my photos, partly because I have too many things to attend to and partly because, when I do eventually get myself organised with perhaps my own website, I'd be more interested in selling my photos than receiving praise or criticism. (Hey! and even partly because I'm such a modest guy ).
Words are cheap. The proof of the pudding is in the purchase of the photo. In any case, the chief reason for my interest in Photography is that I find it an interesting and satisfying challenge. Selling my photos is another challenge which I haven't tackled much yet, and that challenge may well prove to be not nearly as satisfying.
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i dont say you are idiot, the discussion is going in the wrong way
I post allways my fotos in > 10 forums (fredmiranda, photo.net, phototakers,......)
I got more than 100 opinions .. and here 4 or 5
for a few opinion i could see WHO speaks .. that's the main thing for me
to sell ? just have a look to a shop with postcard you will see 90% of full catastrophy
the point is not to sell or not for me but to learn
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Ray I am not up in arm at all, and the question once more is not the critic but who critic and the value of that critic .... croping left side here is a nonsense
i told you that i allways put my pictures in different place to see
another point .... there are 2 things :
> the foto itself and the technique of taking (and making) pictures
> and art, philosophy
i am here for the 1 one
so many commentars are so poor (nearlly all) for the second point
thank you for your time so precious (money certainly)
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howard I agree with you on many points
i am not at all a studiant too, and have done many drawings and painting exhibitions in my life ... i know art from Lascaux to now
BUT
i have started foto with digital and get my first reflex (20D) this year in january, that's a new technic for me (not adobe or corel)
the problem is that most of (digital) fotographers on internet have a zero level in art .. knowing just van gogh and picasso, and Hary Potter or the Hobbits for philosophy ....
i am not waiting for that kind of opinions
here the left side and the mist works just fine
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seberri's posts have been edited. Once again, seberri, I ask you, did you edit your posts and, if so, why?
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Obviously Hacking - but how?
Well, Ikonboard hasn't been updated since late 2004, and the version used on this site (according to the footer) -- dated early 2003 -- has a known vulnerability, but IIRC, that vulnerability has been patched here.
However, it's entirely possible that software that's not been updated in three quarters of a year has a bunch of security vulnerabilities that haven't been patched.
phpBB is perhaps the best evidence of something similar.
All the security issues with bulletin board software leads me to suspect that the programmers don't understand the concepts of basic web programming security. Unfortunately for those using this software, there are many people without honorable intentions who do understand.
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yes edit your comment but plz don't hack, boku doesn't like it ...
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In light of seberri's actions, why would any regular participant in this forum give seberri the time of day?
I have a "do-gooder" compulsion sometimes to try to explain what caused a "communication error" type of problem and get everyone to realize that things have spiraled out of control due to misinterpretation and oversensitivity, and convince them to sit down, calm down, and start over from scratch nicely. More often than not, though, someone's just plain being a jerk and it doesn't work. One can always be optimistic that maybe someday it will work... :p
Lisa
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The left side is bland and adds nothing. I would crop it off.
I would also try to increase the contrast in the clouds and sky.
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I'm with Howard on this. Crop the left (by that I mean the shot could have been more effectively composed at the time of capture with different framing).
Why? Because the lightness of the mist and left horizon is fighting with the river as a place for the eye to land. Sometimes this kind of tension is useful, not here (IMHO).
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after 1138 posts it's bed time for you i think ? no ?
you'r on so many topics here and never show a single foto ... no link nowhere for a gallery !!! ... as you say : WOW !!!
an opinion is allways welcome from someone ... never from a ghost , and someone here means : able or courageous enough to show photos .. are you ?
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1. I agree with Boku.
2. Seberri's posts have been edited. I may be wrong, but unless someone hacked this site, then I assume that Seberrri edited his posts. Seberri, did you edit your posts and, if so, why?
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seberri,
Why did you submit the image? If it wasn't because you suspected the mist on the left was a problem, what did you hope to learn?
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yes the 2 cropped images are working for me but that's 2 other images
... the dark mountain in the middle and the light coming from the left is my main interrest + the dominance of the sky to give a more spacial feeling
Yes, of course they're different images, and that is sort of the point of the exercise.
Maybe you shouldn't use those images, but rather take it as ideas on how to compose new images later on.
and Jani dont put 2005 seberri please .... i am copyextreme left :-)
Okay, I've removed the text again.
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"Their purpose is to facilitate the discussion of photography ..." I agree. And that is also why I favor non-participation by the photographer. The imae should reperesent his best efforts. When you get every other post as a comment from the photogrpaher about how he likes the image the way it is, the discussion gets a little harder to find.
That depends on why the image was posted, Howard.
If the question is "how can I improve this image", or something similar to it, your stance is completely unreasonable.
Responses that disallow any further response from the photographer -- in forums like these -- are a waste of the photographer's time, the critic's time, and the readers' time.
All of this is of course my personal opinion, and I don't want to force anyone to agree with me or do as I say. But if anyone posts criticism of something I submit to these forums, I may comment on the criticism, ask questions, or whatever seems fair and appropriate at the moment.
Of course the photographer liked the image as it was or he wouldn't posted it for comments.
Perhaps, but you're not considering the possibility that while the photographer liked the image, the photographer may not have been certain that it was as good as it should be.
"You're trying to impose your own baggage here in contravention the customs of LL and every other photo discussion forum I've ever visited." That's plain crap.
I concur, I don't see you imposing anything, you're just voicing your opinion, just like me.
I do not have the authority, power, or desire to impose anything here. My suggestion is not baggage.
And neither should it be taken as such.
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I've already mentioned, I don't have any of my photos on the net and have provided the reasons.
If your criterion for a believable critique is the quality of the critic's photos, then you should search for the photos you like best on the net, and then solicit opinions from that photographer by private email or whatever.
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I hope you and I can interact in a more civil manner from now on. I certainly will try.
I will as well.
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Having been motivated to look at some other photo critique site, I ran across this pithy one:
"I've seen worse........."
This one tops my previous all-time favorite of "A sincere effort."
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Lisa, I understand and see the benefit of your approach in many cases, but when confronted with blatant dishonesty, someone should stand up and point out that dishonesty is not acceptable. To do otherwise would be to condone dishonesty.
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thank you
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No, I do not "jump on" opinions. I get angry when you ask for an opinion and then offer an opinion of it. I couldn't care less what you do or think of my opinions or ideas. If you have a question, ask. If you don't like the opinion, ignore it. I did not ask for you opinion of the suggrstions.
No, I do not post my images as I no longer want critiques. I am not finished learning by a long shot, I just don't ask the general public for opinions. But be sure, that if I do, I will consider the ideas and act as I wish. After all, they are still my images. And also be sure, I would never say a suggestion was "a very strange idea."
At this time, my only critics are me and my wife. She is quite good, very brutal, and honest. When her critique is; "What did you take that for?", I tell her and we go on. I know she thinks it is crap, and that is OK. But we go on. If she simply said "toss it," I would still do what I want but seriously consider the opinion.
If I want an opinion, I will post an image and ask. But my images and what you think of them has nothing to do with your work and what I think of it. If you do not think I am qualified to give advice, then just ignore it. Actually, even if you think I am qualified, you can ignore my comments if you wish. I must have missed the "Submit Resume" portion of your request.
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"If i remove the left part and reduce the mist i have better to throw directly the foto ... the main interrest for me in this foto is erased moutains by the morning light "
Then your mind was made up, you did not want an opinion, just a "Wow." Trolling for raves. Not the purpose of asking for comments or a critique.
Hang the image in a gallery, don't come to the show (you may hear something you don't like) and don't read the reviews.
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Now that I look at it, I'm confused as well. One could certainly get the impression that some editing transpired, but none of Seberri's posts show the "edited by" tagline that the forum seems to add to any of my posts I have ever edited.
I edited this post to see if the tagline gets added. It did, and I'm not able to remove it. If Seberri edited his posts, he must know some kind of hack for the forum software to keep his edited posts from being tagged as such. Very strange.
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give me a link to your gallery , i shall see how subtil are your fotos, well composed, how strong is the message, what is your life philosophy and so on... if you want you can send it by PM ....
an opinion is nothing without SHOWING
when i read a few commentars of howard smith on other fotos , something like : "you must crop top bottom and right, and clone 2 birds in the sky, my fotograph eyes need to see it ".... I don't know if i must laugh :-)
you cannot call it a serious opinion
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Ray there are more subtil levels than croping and contrasting or erasing a small foliage in art .. . if i dont crop that one i shall crop another one ...
why nearlly allways such a low level in giving opinion ?...
a bit more salad in that hamburger will not change mac donald philosophy ... deeper is the point
I thought maybe on luminous landscape it was more luminous
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sberri,
"... show me somewhere a foto taken by you when you were not there and let's speak after that :-)"
I don't understand the request. As far as I know, I have always been present (or very near by) when I took a photograph. And what part of I have no intention of showing you any of my photographs didn't you understand?
"i am not at all a studiant too, and have done many drawings and painting exhibitions in my life ... i know art from Lascaux to now"
If your intention is to prove you know more about art or photography than I do, I will stipulate that you do.
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seberri's posts have been edited. Once again, seberri, I ask you, did you edit your posts and, if so, why?
Obviously Hacking - but how?
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OK, I see what's gone wrong here. Seberri posted an image for critique here before hanging around here long enough to see how things work around here. He was expecting the usual fredmiranda.com style critique of "wow! beautiful!" and was insulted when people started making suggestions for improving it without particularly praising it. But that's typically how this site works; in the past, typically, when someone posts an image for critique, it's because they're not quite content with it as it is and are looking for suggestions for improving it. That's how we responded, and Seberri got insulted by our responses (who was it who once said that communication errors are the root of most problems between people?), and then the childish behavior got out of hand.
Seberri, hacking is *never* acceptable among people who aren't trying to cause trouble. Your outburst about boku was childish.
Seberri: If you are really interested in improving your image, not just in getting praise, then I can try to explain in more detail *why* I thought it might be improved by cropping some off the left (which a number of people here agree with; and if a number of people disagree with you on an issue, it's always wise to listen to them and consider what they say instead of just rejecting it as "wrong" - that's how one learns!). Shall I try, or not bother?
Lisa
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dazzajl there is no consensus on croping left , after about 100 commentars on this foto i got only 3 or 4
strangelly all at the same familly place : here :-)
.... for the quality of photos fredmiranda's or Naturescape forums are the best forums i know
i will jonatan .. i will howard ... :-) ... i will willy ! ..
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dazzajl there is no consensus on croping left , after about 100 commentars on this foto i got only 3 or 4
strangelly all at the same familly place : here :-)
Not so strange when the focus here is actually on improving one's work, rather than being a mutual admiration society. And FWIW, IMO the photo would be better if a bit was trimmed off the left.
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My comment may be nonsense. Don't ask for an opinion if you don't want one. This is exactly why I don't think the photographer should defend his image at crit.
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I have never said that I dont like your opinion, just that I shall not crop the left part or change anything to the mist
I said also that I shall try a bit more contrast and remove the foliage ... strangly no comments from you about it :-)
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No, I do not "jump on" opinions. I get angry when you ask for an opinion and then offer an opinion of it. I couldn't care less what you do or think of my opinions or ideas.
Howard, your notion that a photographer should not be allowed to participate in critique discussions regarding his/her photos is strange and unproductive, and certainly not shared by most of the participants here. And it's certainly rude of you to react the way you did when seberri simply thanked you for your opinion. There's no excuse for ripping anyone's head off for simply being thanked.
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but never showing and speak is not the way
Not the way to what? Youv'e also missed the point that not showing on the internet is not the same as not showing period.
Of course I show my photos, to friends and acquaintances. I'm constantly under a lot of pressure to produce prints of my recent trip to Italy when I really want to scan Kodachromes that I took 40 years ago because I reckon they are in greater danger of deterioration than the recent digital shots which can wait.
Do you think I'm going to make a special point of getting some appealing image on the net in order to lend credence to the validity of my comments. "What I say must be right because of this marvelous photo I took that you can see here."
If that's your attitude, I could twirl you around my little finger. I could show you an appealing photo and then feed you a lot of codswallop, and you'd believe me.
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I am not ONLY interrested in .... and i dont know Michael
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jani i cant find any pictures on http://folk.uio.no/jani/ (http://folk.uio.no/jani/)
Try "Hobbies" and then "Photography".
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Yes. I think both of Jani's crops work quite well.
Someone once said (who was that?) that they'd never come across an image that could not be improved with a bit of cropping.
Of course, everyone's idea of suitable cropping is slightly different. Ansel Adams would probably throw up a different result.
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Seberri, you've made it abundantly clear that you came here fishing for ego-gratification rather than seeking guidance for ways to improve your photos. It's also become clear that you know a method for editing your posts that prevents the "edited by" tag from being displayed and have used that to whitewash some of your more inflammatory remarks. And our security concerns are well-founded. The last time hackers started messing with this site they managed to completely crash the forums. I've never said this before to anyone, but go away and don't come back.
Howard, I hereby retract my remarks chastising you for your response to seberri. I was looking at the edited versions of his posts and didn't realize they had been altered. I apologize.
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Deleted my comment, I misunderstood the context.
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I didn't mean to give the impression the image is plastered all over the web.
Just for fun, I went to Fred Miranda to see what a real critique was like. This is representaive of what I found:
"Excellent photographs. They instill a real sense of peace. This is work I am sure you are very proud to show."
Now that really is helpful in understanding the art. The images were excellant, by the way.
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Lisa, I understand and see the benefit of your approach in many cases, but when confronted with blatant dishonesty, someone should stand up and point out that dishonesty is not acceptable. To do otherwise would be to condone dishonesty.
Understood. If you go back to my previous post, I had a pargraph doing exactly that too.
Lisa
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...
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"when you reply to a post , don't you need a 100% agrement [sic] or silence ?? .. I think so !"
When you ask for an opinion, am I suppose to guess what you want to hear? I think so ! What I think is what I think. It is neither right nor wrong. It is just what I think. And yes, if you don't like my solicided opinion, then either don't ask or silence.
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I'm confused by the first page of this thread...
Reading it, it looks like Seberri has responded to Howard with some volataile comments and Howard was reacting to them. However, none of Seberri's posts contain the text that Howard quoted in his replies...
Did Seberri go back and edit his posts (though the screen does not show that he did so...) or was he sending personal emails to Howard?
Any thoughts on this Howard?
PS. I'm totally with Bob on the issue of people showing up and making trouble. Everyone is welcome, but let's keep it civil.
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thank you for your commentars Ray .. i whish you the bests shots possible
but never showing and speak is not the way
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I am not ONLY interrested in .... and i dont know Michael
And you don't know me!! ???
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OK sberri,
"there are more subtil levels than croping and contrasting or erasing a small foliage in art"
Very true, but first you need to strip away the extra stuff so any art can be seen. In painting, the artist has the ability to put only the elements intended in the image and to put them where he wants them. The camera is not so forgiving, so the artist must remove the elements he does not want. Otherwise, the image is likely to be merely a document of what the scene looked like when I was there.
When you post an image with weeds in the left foreground and low contrast clouds and poorly cropped, I think it safe to say that that is how you thought the image looked best or ought to look.
"why nearlly allways such a low level in giving opinion ?...
a bit more salad in that hamburger will not change mac donald philosophy ... deeper is the point"
I don't know what you are expecting. To me, the photo as presented was not technially well done (poor contrast, and the extra garbage in the foreground) and the composition was poor. The big black area smack in the middle with the bright left side and dark right side makes the composition look deformed. I fail to see anything artisitic there. It looks like another "I was there" snapshot.
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ok jani I found the fotos on your website
yes the 2 cropped images are working for me but that's 2 other images
... the dark mountain in the middle and the light coming from the left is my main interrest + the dominance of the sky to give a more spacial feeling
I took many fotos that morning .... that one was with wide angle
and Jani dont put 2005 seberri please .... i am copyextreme left :-)
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Thank you Jonathan. I accept. I hope you and I can interact in a more civil manner from now on. I certainly will try.
Added info:
I looked at http://www.thephotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3267
SAme image with quite different reactions from reviewers and seberri. I thinks this confirms he is just trolling for compliments, not any kind of advice.
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Lisa i am not expecting for a wow here or anywhere else, i am looking what comes that's all
if i can get a real good point to progress i never miss it
i was not insulted ... this stupid game goes on alone
what was insulted here is only one thing ! : > 1000 post against < 30 .. that's a tipical reaction in the kind "mine is shorter" nearlly animal .. what the very polite Boku calls a familly
Lisa do what you think and want ... it's a forum
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Added info:
I looked at http://www.thephotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3267
SAme image with quite different reactions from reviewers and seberri. I thinks this confirms he is just trolling for compliments, not any kind of advice.
How odd,
I dont get to many photographic forums, who has the time but I do use that one. Now it's either a very eerie coincidence that's it's found it's way onto the one small (at present) UK based forum I use........ or as suggested, it's plastered all over the internet.
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what was insulted here is only one thing ! : > 1000 post against < 30 ..
This is not a site that gives 1000 responses to anything. Well, nearly anything, there may have been a handful of threads in the history of this site.
Your expectations are unreasonable, and you show a complete lack of knowledge and respect for this site.
I'm actually amazed that you've gotten so many responses at all.
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"i like the opinions, but to remove the sea in a seascape is strange, ... ."
I doubt it. And I was not suggesting you remove the sea from a sea scape. And if the sea adds no value or detracts, toss it.
And the weeds in the left foreground need to go, unless this is a weed scape.
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Lisa If i remove the left part and reduce the mist i have better to throw directly the foto ... the main interrest for me in this foto is erased moutains by the morning light
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I like the left hand 1.4 of the photo, the mountain's fade into the mist (I think) adds a nice bit of atmospherics to the picture.
And I don't think it is bad to say that you won't crop that out. I've had photos before (and I am thinking of a particular recent shot) that neary everyone I talked to told me to crop the lower portion of the image out, but that was my favorite part. Sometimes you just have to make up your mind, even if you still want critics.
As a general rule, I'm not a huge fan of black and white, most especially in landscapes. To me, color is an unremovable part of the land.
-macgyver
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generally when I see a few great shots from someone i like very much his opinion not waiting at all for a WOW ! but to become a bit better .. to learn
"crop there " , "add a bit contrast in the clouds" , "you must respect the rule of 3 parts" ... and so on is not the best you can say to help someone, there are allways more technical points or subtils points to speak about
I don't want to see your fotos to critic them but to know who speaks and eventually to learn
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you could but you don't ...
It's a matter of priorities. We generally do what's most important to us at the time. There are many demands upon my attention and showing my photos on the net would increase those demands.
I am actually partly in agreement with you. If your creation is criticised then there's a reaction to be 'up in arms'. I understand that. It's also part of the reason why I don't show my photos on the net. If someone criticised my photos in a negative manner or a derogatory manner (or perhaps any manner at all), I'd be up in arms.
Ultimately, you have to learn to have the confidence in your own assessment of your own images.
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Ray I am not up in arm at all, and the question once more is not the critic but who critic and the value of that critic .... croping left side here is a nonsense
No, it's not "nonsense".
It's exactly that attitude which people react (badly) to.
Fine, you disagree with those who suggest that you crop your image, that is okay.
But cropping it is not "nonsense", it's an opinion, or a criticism of your image.
If you can't take such criticism without labeling it as "nonsense" or editing your posts after the fact to make them look better, I strongly suggest that you don't post your images at all.
Of course, that's just my opinion on your posting style.
As for the image, I disagree with those who want to crop the left part, I think it's part of what actually makes the image work. The softness and low contrast in the fog gives the image a dream-like quality that appeals to me.
Yes, the straws in the lower left corner are distracting, and you should probably do something about those.
And since it seems to matter to you, you may browse through my publically available images on my web site (the link is included in every article).
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"The forums here and at every other photography site on the internet (fredmiranda, etc.) are not a final exam for a graded photography course." So what?
"Their purpose is to facilitate the discussion of photography ..." I agree. And that is also why I favor non-participation by the photographer. The imae should reperesent his best efforts. When you get every other post as a comment from the photogrpaher about how he likes the image the way it is, the discussion gets a little harder to find. Of course the photographer liked the image as it was or he wouldn't posted it for comments.
"Even in a photography class, students ... " True, but this neither a final exam or a class. A class has a leader, and this forum doesn't.
"You're trying to impose your own baggage here in contravention the customs of LL and every other photo discussion forum I've ever visited." That's plain crap. I do not have the authority, power, or desire to impose anything here. My suggestion is not baggage. Maybe you need to get out more and visit more neighborhoods.
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Here are a couple of alternative compositions that I think work. The latter is a completely different image, and to make it work for anything but the web, you'd have to do it again, so it's not a very good option.
(http://folk.uio.no/jani/tmp/Monternay_4264_450.jpg)
In this version, I've attempted to reduce the dominance of the sky, and cropped out part of the left to remove the straws, while retaining the light in the left part of the image. Notice how the pattern of the hills in the fog on the left are reflected in the pattern of the river.
(http://folk.uio.no/jani/tmp/Monternay_4264_400.jpg)
This is a 4x5 landscape cliché, but it works for me, except the sky now is so boring that it needs serious work.
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I Just want to tell once more (it is becoming slowly boring :-)) that there is another level in commentars than croping and contrast and of course the famous WOW ! (Boku's edge :-))
the occidental feeling of space with its rule is for me a major handicap for the world, this picture must not be cropped but more open from each sides ... and no foreground at all if possible
thanks to Jani .. he likes to play
... and now they are afraid with security !!!
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I'm actually amazed that you've gotten so many responses at all.
Of course, Seberri has gotten these responses because I think we all recognise the resistance we all have (sometimes) to unpalatable ideas. We should always bear in mind that the critic has an ego and his/her critique is, in a way, also a personal work of art.
This is why I'm rather skeptical of the 'critique' process. Ultimately, it's saying your attempt does not conform with my standards. Now I can justify my standards by demonstrating I'm very erudite. I can justify my standards by demonstrating my photos have sold. I can justify my standards by exhibiting some of my own photos. If you really like my photos and want to produce the same, then you can sit at my feet and recieive instruction. I become a guru.
I'm not sure what Seberri wants. Perhaps a guru?
He's made some comments that he's averse to cropping because, if anything, the image needs greater expanse. Maybe so. In which case the recommendation would be, 'You should have used a wider lens'.
Are you happier with this recommendation, Seberri?
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I didn't mean to give the impression the image is plastered all over the web.
Sorry Howard, I didn't mean to imply that was your suggestion but more that the previous comments about trolling for compliments may have some basis in fact. Although trolling could well be a bit strong as there is good reason to get as broad a range of opinions as possible.
I will stand by my plastered comment though. :D
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yes the little foliage will be removed in another version
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thank you to everybody
i shall not crop the left part for many other reasons, but it's interresting to get your opinion
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after 1138 posts it's bed time for you i think ? no ?
OK. You just crossed the line.
Here's my take - anyone who has that many posts has a far greater stake in this place than you.
We are family - I going to start sticking up for my relatives.
PS: You were trolling for a WOW. I agree about the cropping. Time to move on. Do not reply to me or ask me to defend anything. We will never communicate again.
NEXT! - take a number folks.
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I don't want to see your fotos to critic them but to know who speaks and eventually to learn
Seberri,
There's a great conflict here. If you have to earn a living taking photos, then public opinion is important.
You are essentially asking for public opinion by showing your image on the net. Testing the waters, perhaps. How is the anonymous public likey to judge my work?
You've got a response which basically says, the work is not going to sell. If you want to argue with that, then sell the work and come back to us and tell us we're a bunch of idiots because you just made a thousand bucks.
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you could but you don't ...
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jani i cant find any pictures on http://folk.uio.no/jani/ (http://folk.uio.no/jani/)
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Jonathan, perhaps having the photographer participate in his own critique is usual and customary on LL, but it was not allowed in any critiques I have attended. The reasons given were it limited the photogrpaher's defense of his pwn work, and the photographer is most often not present when his work is in the public eye (sales, magazine articles/covers, etc.) The critique was more like a final exam for the print and the photogrpaher wasn't permitted to help grade it.
So what? The forums here and at every other photography site on the internet (fredmiranda, etc.) are not a final exam for a graded photography course. Their purpose is to facilitate the discussion of photography, and there is no reason to institutionalize a rule excluding the photographer. Even in a photography class, students are allowed to participate in discussions pertaining to their work, at least until final exams. And there are no final exams here. You're trying to impose your own baggage here in contravention the customs of LL and every other photo discussion forum I've ever visited.
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there is another level in commentars than croping and contrast
Absolutley.........
... but just because people have suggested a crop doesn't mean that they are a slave to the traditions of placing. It's just a case of that's how people feel about that particular image. The great thing about suggestions is once they've been made they become yours to do with as you wish.
Surely the prime objective of this photograph is to make you happy and I feel from your comments that it has at the very least come close to this. Quite often people might not understand what I'm trying to do or say with a photo but through some constructive commentary I might see something that's equally strong or even stronger than my intentions. That doesn't lessen my pleasure or emmotional connection with the image but give me somethibng extra I might otherwise have overlooked.
You could say the fact that the common concensus would be a small crop of the left edge is the mark of well recieved image. Would you have been happier to see paragraph after paragraph pointing out error after error in technical application or going ther other way, to be told about the pictures different elements, which you can obviously see for yourself?
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Howard show me somewhere a foto taken by you when you were not there and let's speak after that :-)
.. for the moment looking at your comments on this site ... i don't see any level over a postcart ... why not ? but i am looking for something else
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i agree that's not more constructive than crop the left ... i put time to time fotos and look what comes ... you are making a kind of paranoia on my comment ...
but what is VERY interesting in your certainly boring life is the time you spend on this topic ... and looking around the net where i am .... do you miss me somehow Howard ?
I have never said the comment are better on other forum , just that on fredmiranda site they are really great fotos ...
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Ray,
The "critic has an ego." It should be checked at the door, right next to the photographer's. The situation you describe can be partly bypassed if the photogrpaher just listens and doesn't rebut. More to this situation, or critique the critique. I think the tone of the photographer's rebutals were "I know more about this image than you do and I don't respect you or your suggestions." In that case, the image should skip crit and go directly to market (whatever that mey be).
"This is why I'm rather skeptical of the 'critique' process. Ultimately, it's saying your attempt does not conform with my standards."
The critique process is nothing new and has worked very well for a long time. Maybe you are skepical because you have not been exposed adequately to proper and working critiques. If this is an example of a proper critique, I would have attended only one and would never have given a comment here.
"Now I can justify my standards by demonstrating I'm very erudite. I can justify my standards by demonstrating my photos have sold. I can justify my standards by exhibiting some of my own photos. If you really like my photos and want to produce the same, then you can sit at my feet and recieive instruction. I become a guru." Wow, I just want to say this is crap. Most people I know who have offered "critiques" have never sold more than one or two images, if any. The critiques were offered by peers, not superiors or gurus. There is no requirement to even own a camera for being a good and proper critic.
"He's made some comments that he's averse to cropping because, if anything, the image needs greater expanse." The photographer should be open to any critique or suggestion. That certainly does not require any action except to listen. Even if the photogrpaher wants more space, the crop suggestion should still be a learning opportunity as to why the image needs more room.
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"the rest is well where it is... ." Then why ask for suggestions? I don't care what you do with my suggestions, just don't ask for them and then tell me you don't need them.
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Give us the link to the other opinions youv'e received so we can judge how sensible they are. I still get back to my point that the dollar opinion is all that matters, ultimately. Of course, it doesn't matter in all circumstances. Photos can be just memories. No dollar association there.
But art[/i] is a different matter. There's great association of art with money. It's a sort of corruption regrettably.
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seberri, with referfence to your post of Sep. 08 2005,06:21, the quotes you attribute to me are simply not correct, quite misleading, and wisrepresent my comments. I did not make any comment that someone "must" crop a certain way, or "must" respect the rule of thirds.
seberri, I have read may comments in other forums regarding images. I find all the "wows", "inspiring," and "greats" less than helpful to me in trying to understand what makes an image "wow."
The issue of posting images has come up here before with respect to my participation. Posting an image is not the entrance ticket. Posting is optional. "Put up or shut up" is not the way here. I choose not to post for purely personal reasons. My prints have been reviewed in hundreds of critiques, most with favorable comments, some ravaged. I no longer seek that photographic process. Crits were a powerful learning tool for me, and still would be. But like other learning situations, like school, I have moved on. I am certainly not saying schools could be of no value to me, I have plenty more to learn that they could teach me. But I am not a school student anymore.
What you or anyone else might think of my work should not have any influence on you and what you do with one of my comments. I might be considered very good or very bad or maybe not even own a camera. It simply doesn't matter.
Jonathan, perhaps having the photographer participate in his own critique is usual and customary on LL, but it was not allowed in any critiques I have attended. The reasons given were it limited the photogrpaher's defense of his pwn work, and the photographer is most often not present when his work is in the public eye (sales, magazine articles/covers, etc.) The critique was more like a final exam for the print and the photogrpaher wasn't permitted to help grade it. Before the critique, if the photographer wanted help from others, he was of course encouraged to seek it out. But that was not a critique. The movie producer isn't on Siskel and Ebert to explain why his movie should get 2 thumbs up or provide him with editing ideas before the movie goes public. Nor were Siskel and Ebert required to screen one their movies to prove they could make a movie.
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howard that is not what i mean ... and you know it
Jani I did 200 shot the same morning .... your 2 versions are nice but they are somehow for smokers ... I need more space , oxygen
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I have twice directly asked seberri if he edited his posts, and others have stated or suggested that he did so. Still, seberri has not denied that he edited his posts, but instead made a comment suggesting that he believes hacking is permissable. Therefore, I feel safe in assuming that seberri did edit his posts and hacked this site.
In light of seberri's actions, why would any regular participant in this forum give seberri the time of day?
I second Jonathan's request that seberri go away and not return.
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Ray, I do not agree with:
"Ultimately, it's saying your attempt does not conform with my standards."
This would seem to put an end to all education. Even "Dear Abbey" could be viewed as "I am better at managing life than you are. Responses to technical questions could be construed as "I know more than you do."
Your notion that print salea is the proper measure is also flawed. It filters out all the negative responses from people who don't like the print (didn't buy it) along with the "LOved it but I'm broke" response. You end up with only "Wow" responses.
However, in personal messages and a lost post(s), it has been made apparent to me that Neil (site super) does agree with you on suggestions. He has determined I was the instigator of the downward spiral of this thread. I apologize to all of you for this offense. It will not happen again.
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Neil, if you did determine that Howard was the instigator, did you make that determination after reading seberri's original, unedited posts? If not, then you didn't have a proper basis to make your determination.
I'd conclude that seberri fired the first shot. Howard may have returned fire, however, when discretion may have been the better part of valour.
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Neil, if you did determine that Howard was the instigator, did you make that determination after reading seberri's original, unedited posts? If not, then you didn't have a proper basis to make your determination.
I'd conclude that seberri fired the first shot. Howard may have returned fire, however, when discretion may have been the better part of valour.
I have nothing to add, except that I share dmerger's impression.
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I have no idea at all how to hack a forum , it was never in my mind ...
dmerger you are from far the most funny in that thread
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Amazing discussion thread. There seems to be four themes running through it:
1) The merits of Seberri's photograph;
2) Whether Seberri wants praise or objective comment;
3) Whether Seberri hacked the site;
4) What makes useful comment and whether the photographer is allowed to respond.
Whew - quite a witches' brew.
Re (2), Who cares. By now Seberri and anyone else who reads this stuff knows - if you post something on L-L, at least the "Regulars" (and like-minded others) will simply call the shots as they see them, no insult implied or intended. That is how it should be. No need to chase any one away - people either like the style or not and the participation will "self-select".
Re (3) Hacking - he says he didn't. Innocent till proven guilty. If proven guilty, grounds for banning from the site. Covering-up editing tracks (is this different from "hacking"?) - he didn't respond to this charge;he should either deny it or apologize for it - this is a reputational issue.
Re (4) We've all been around and around the issue of what makes for useful comment in that other discussion thread about whether to have a photo critique section on the Forum. No more needs to be said - except I think that thread was a victim of the crash - most unfortunately. It had some good ideas in it. Perhaps we should start a new one, just to synthesize the key points as we remember them. This particular thread isn't the place to do that. As for photographer's being allowed to respond - why not - after all it is discussion between photographers, and discussion is a multi-way street.
Now saving the original purpose of the thread for the last, (1) the merits of the photograph, I have several comments, a bit different from what has been said before:
(a) I find the picture doesn't work because there is no center of gravity due to divergent compositional lines. The mountain slopes from the left to the right lead into the river, but the river leads off the page. I think the crops that Jan illustrated are an attempt to resolve that issue, and they do so by making the river the center of attention with less distraction.
( While the contrejour lighting in the lower portions of the photograph are interesting and stimulating, there is too much monotony between the upper parts of the mountains and the sky - it is all too grey, diluting the impact of the lower half.
Hence, if those points make sense, I think this photograph could be improved, (1) as already shown above, by cropping that simplifies the composition and gives it more unity, and (2) driving apart the tops of the mountains from the sky by lightening the sky and increasing its contrast.
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Ray, I do not agree with:
"Ultimately, it's saying your attempt does not conform with my standards."
This would seem to put an end to all education.
Howard,
How do you draw that conclusion? Seems to me all education is a striving on the part of the student (and sometimes an imposition on the part of the teacher) to reach a particular standard of understanding and competence.
Those who have failed to conform with those standards (and you could also say failed to 'reach' those standards) fail the exam, in a formal context.
In the world of art, those standards are enormously flexible, which is why so much hot air is generated and why people often feel more comfortable discussing technical matters, especially considering that 'so-called' art experts have been known to confuse paintings drawn by an elephant with abstract art produced by homo sapiens.
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Your notion that print salea is the proper measure is also flawed. It filters out all the negative responses from people who don't like the print (didn't buy it) along with the "LOved it but I'm broke" response. You end up with only "Wow" responses.
True! But it also filters out all the hypocrisy and erudite pontificating that could be summarised as "wow!', from people who can afford to buy the work, but don't.
The net sales are thus a reflection of the truly 'wow!' responses set against the sum of truly negative responses.
Of course, this is still a very imperfect gauge because sales of anything can be increased through improved marketing.
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Ray, I will not argue these points any longer. We simply don't agree.
Rather than "argue," can I say debate?
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The net sales are thus a reflection of the truly 'wow!' responses set against the sum of truly negative responses.
I cringe at that purposed definition.
Did you not live through the era of the big-eyed kids? Are you not aware of the success of Thomas Kincade?
Somewhere one needs to total the Barfs as well as the Wows.
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I cringe at that purposed definition.
Cringe as much as you like, but how true is my statement?
One man's cringing is another man's elation, perhaps. It's still a matter of standards, or perhaps I should say a matter of which standards you as an individual subscribe to.
I don't believe in any absolutes. I tend towards Utilitarianism; the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Esthetically, there are a lot of things that make me cringe too, but I don't use such an emotion as an objective guide to the value of a work of art otherwise I might find myself in the position of consigning most of the works of Picasso to the rubbish bin.
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MarkDS Cropping left and upper part is not for that foto at all .... i agree that maybe it is better to throw directly the foto
the 2 fotos of Jani are not working at all for me, the space is totally lost, and the middle moutain is not growing up from the light anymore
I think occidental eyes have a long way to go to accept empty space
Ray in Picasso's art you will never find space he was so full of himself that there is no place for emptyness (not shure of all that words in english) , he is the succefull model of occidental mentality
in photography foreground is the place where i am, it give a very good indication of what the fotografer thinks of himself
I think Howard was waiting for a "wow ! Howard your opinion is great you are right" :-) .. and after > 1000 commentars it has a special price in the forum balance
for me speaking without showing has a value = 0 even after 1000000 replies
i saw Lisa's pictures , that was good to know how she works ...
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for me speaking without showing has a value = 0 even after 1000000 replies
Last time I checked there were 97 relies in this thread. I think you might be confusing views with replies, seberri.
If I were painting representational landscapes and someone made what I thought was a valid criticism of one of my paintings, and then showed me one of his/her paintings in the cubist style that I happened to think quite horrible, for example, then how should that affect the valid comment? Should I change my mind about the comment? Should I take the view, 'Your comment is worthless because I don't like your paintings'?
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you'r speaking of a style, cubism is a style, they are very good cubist like Brake and very bad cubist, I generally don't like sport photos (for the style) but I can't make a difference between a good one and a bad one
cubism is a very interresting moment of our culture, maybe the top of modernity
i agree with you for the quality of criticism, Wittgenstein was not a good musician but his music commentars are just great
here it will be better to show as far as no commentars are interresting
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I think occidental eyes have a long way to go to accept empty space
Ray in Picasso's art you will never find space he was so full of himself that there is no place for emptyness (not shure of all that words in english) , he is the succefull model of occidental mentality
Seberri, anyone with a modicum of education in the graphic arts understands the role of "empty" space in imagery wherever in this World they come from, so please cut the garbage and let us stick to the artistic issues. The fact is, there is no empty space in your picture - it is filled with alot of low contrast material in various shades of dull grey that deadens the effect you were probably trying to create. I believe the suggestions I made can be profitably implemented while still preserving the effect you describe of the mountain emerging from the light; and what I suggested for the upper portion of the photograph actually goes further toward the "empty space" concept than your photograph does, without however really emptying that space, because neither a dull grey sky nor a bright empty sky would work here. The changes of tonality and composition in this image should not be very radical in order to make a dramatic improvement. Try some of these ideas in your own way and see what happens.
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i am not looking for a dramatic improvement
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i am not looking for a dramatic improvement
Exactly. Just ego-scratching, obviously.
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what else than your ego in competition with mine :-)
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i am not looking for a dramatic improvement
I think you misunderstand the use of the word "dramatic" here.
It does not mean that the improvement will add more drama to the picture, it means that the improvement itself is dramatic, or in other words, very significant.
But if you're not looking for improvement, then I must concur with the accusation.
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You've dismissed every negative critique as a failing of the Occidental mind to properly appreciate space, in spite of the fact that most of the comments (many from professional photographers) are in agreement regarding what should be changed to improve the image. In spite of this, you continue to insist that your view is superior and everyone else in the Universe is wrong. My ego has nothing to do with this fact.
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OK Seberri, we've reached the end of the road in this discussion, because it's your picture and you are the final judge over what you think you should do with it and for you it is OK. So be it. Enjoy.
But just remember for the future if you intend to post any more photographs here - Luminous-Landscape Discussion Forum is not a mutual admiration society. People say what they think. If you can live with that, fine; but, I for one will not spend any more time discussing your work if I shall be treated with irrelevant racial considerations in the process. The language of the graphic arts is universal.
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Jan, yes - just to confirm my intention - I should have used the word "substantial" instead of "dramatic". That would have possibly conveyed the idea in a manner less prone to misunderstanding. Anyhow, that is for "history".
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can I see your photos online MarkDS ? or like many here are you a photograph who shoot only words ?
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As I said Seberri, for me the discussion is over on this thread. It hasn't been cricket - and it's not going to be volleyball.
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I see :-) run away that's the best you have to do ! just in the moment to show your pictures
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Should I have ever commented on anything to anyone I'm sure I have a cat photo somewhere in the forums that people can use as a measuring stick. (Unfortunately it is a pretty accurate one. But then I'm an engineer.)
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(http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/images/2005-01-28-0030-0033.jpg)
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thank you Jonathan .. that's interresting
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I don;t usually get involved in this type of thread but I am compellled to do so today.
Seberri- you are out of line. If you wish to have a photograph critiqued, first be aware and accept that a critique can go both ways; and if you are indeed so knowledgeable in the arts, you must have goine through the critique process, both favorably and unfavorably many times. I will not go there further as I don't know you.
Secondly, we need always to kep RESPECT in our Luminous Landscape environment. This is why we are here, a mixture of all people, talented and less talented, all together, enjoying a space where we are all contributing or learning or sharing. It is not, NOT usual in my years of experience on this forum to have insinuations and irritating replies to the responses of other forum members- responses which YOU solicited!!!
Thirdly, it is quite inconceivable that this same person who posted a photo asking for opinions, should then edit the responses? I thought something had happened to the forum when it crashed as the thread was really strange, without the actual replies- unless the replies were done through regular emails as someone mentioned.
Last, as I don't believe this line of discussion should go any further on my part, I think that what you may be looking for is a forum like Pbase which is exactly what you may need or want, a place where people post their pictures and then other people who visit the site, post their comments and feedback. The comments I have seen and mostly favorable.
Luminous Landscape is something else, as someone said, it's our family cirle. Please don't interfere with its peaceful environment unless you are willing to add to its magic by your presence.
In my modest opinion, Art is the gift of bringing out what you have inside, not necessarily what comes out with a 20D.