Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Nick Walker on July 01, 2019, 11:16:58 am
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Sony A9 has the finest AF system I have used. I am struggling to find images that are not tack sharp. The Sony 400mm F/2.8 and 70-200mm F/2.8 are both optically 'superb' with high resolution, contrast, and very fast AF systems.
The beauty of the Sony A9’s system is the freedom to automatically track a subject’s eye(s), or face, accurately across 80% of the frame and solely concentrate on composition (not concentrating on targetting the AF point), with no or little cropping, so liberating, something that cannot be said of a 35mm DSLR’s AF system which only covers approx 40% of the frame.
Image quality is excellent, with very good dynamic range. The ability to capture images without disturbing an athlete when you can hear a pin drop opens up new photo opportunities.
I have covered professional sport since 1992, during this time owned many flagship cameras and pro lenses (14mm - 600mm).
I feel that I am qualified to say that the A9 has no peers when it comes to AF, apart from many years of using AF systems, I have been privileged to collaborate with other leading photo companies, testing DSLR prototype devices and providing feedback on AF systems.
Shortly before the 2012 Olympics I set up a comprehensive AF testing session at an athletics track with one company to try and iron-out AF tracking issues with a newly released camera - a subsequent AF tracking only firmware upgrade greatly improved the camera in question.
Could I have taken the attached image of the tennis player at full stretch with a DSLR, yes, but not with the same tack sharp consistency that I am now achieving.
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What about the viewfinder experience in fast paced situations?
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The viewfinder has a standard mode they call high quality I think and a second mode for high speed performance when shooting action. I’m not a pro sports shooter but I find it adequate for the action stuff I shoot.
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It will be very interesting what advances the A92 will have. I believe Sony is throwing around revolutionary in their speak. Also to note, Sony is releasing another firmware update for the A9 adding animal eye focus tracking.
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for this promising report. It's great to see Sony push the enveloppe the way they are currently doing.
What DSLRs having you been shooting with if I may ask?
Cheers,
Bernard
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What about the viewfinder experience in fast paced situations?
When athletes 'noticeably' and suddenly change direction, i.e. cricket - fast bowler running who suddenly jumps very high at the crease, the EVF does show a momentary lag, resulting in the EVF image slightly jumping to catch-up. Subjects moving towards the camera keeping their feet on the ground, or close to it, with normal side to side movements doesn't show the same momentary lag as extreme changes in direction.
I am sure the next generation Sony flagship camera will improve upon this. This momentary lag was off-putting at first but I have got used to it and make allowances for it. I disliked the EVF at first as it's so different but I now prefer it overall to the limitations of a DSLR.
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for this promising report. It's great to see Sony push the enveloppe the way they are currently doing.
What DSLRs having you been shooting with if I may ask?
Cheers,
Bernard
Hi Bernard,
I am aware that you use Nikon equipment. I sold my first image to Nikon Jpn (Nikon Photo Contest Int) as an amateur photographer back in the late 1980’s. My professional photographic career grew with Nikon, I still have a great deal of admiration for Nikon, and respect for Canon, however, Sony have have left Nikon and Canon CEO's either day-dreaming or asleep in their response. Nikon and Canon may well argue that EVF and mirrorless technology in general has not matured enough, however, I have spoken to photographers who are in the midst of arranging pro Sony loan kits.
I have owned many DSLR’s. Nikon - from screw driven F4 to the Nikon D4. In the past 4 years Canon 1DX MKII’s - better at tracking than the Nikon D4 (Nikkor lenses calibrated to bodies), especially using Canon’s F/2.8 wider array AF points and F/4 array outer AF points, with or without Canon's 1.4 or 2X MK III converters attached to either a Canon 400mm f/2.8 and 600mm f/4 MKII lenses. When I was loaned a Canon 1D MKI and 400mm f/2.8 lens I carried out detailed side by side tests against my Nikon D4 on an athlete zig zagging towards the camera (both fired at the same time). I have not used the Nikon D5 but colleagues report, as expected, that the Nikon D5 AF system is much improved.
I changed from Nikon to Canon as my D4 and D800 suffered the same 'totally inaccurate' AF to the left side of the AF layout - both cameras were replaced by Nikon but suffered the same issues, something I was not prepared to tolerate (more evident with shorter focal length lenses the 14-24mm and 24-70mm F/2.8 Nikkor lenses).
I didn’t envisage moving to Sony and was waiting for Canon to react but they have been far too slow in producing a Sony A9 competitor. Both Nikon and Canon will respond, Sony representatives have made comments to this effect in the media.
If Canon (or Nikon) were to soon to announce a Sony A9 competitor (even if it still slightly lagged behind the rumoured Sony A9 MKII), and produce Canon DO L series super-telephoto lenses (600mm F/4 L prototype shown approx 4 years ago) or could shrink the size of super-telephoto lenses the way they have incredibly shortened the new 70-200mm F/2.8 R series lens I would imagine this would halt any thoughts of changing - Sony have committed themselves, presumably for several years, to traditional (still bulky) super-telephoto lenses - albeit now hand holdable with superb AF speed and optics.
Over the years, when I have changed systems, with an interest in optics I have accurately tested lenses side-by-side - not test charts! Although the sensor is an influencing factor I feel confident enough to state that Sony’s 400mm F/2.8 G master lens has higher resolution edge to edge and a beautiful clarity that none of my previously owned 400mm lenses could match - I have owned several Canon and Nikon 400mm lenses, going way back when they used to weigh 6.5 kilos!
Not only are Sony producing state of the art camera technology but pushing lens manufacturing techniques with extreme aspherical element precision that appears unmatched. The Sony 135mm F/1.8 looks stunning and the 24mm F/1.4, from real world tests shows no coma in the corners at F/1.4 compared to the top of the range Zeiss Otus 28mm F/1.4 - Sony 24mm 1.4 appears to be an astro photographers dream lens.
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Hi Bernard,
I am aware that you use Nikon equipment. I sold my first image to Nikon Jpn (Nikon Photo Contest Int) as an amateur photographer back in the late 1980’s. My professional photographic career grew with Nikon, I still have a great deal of admiration for Nikon, and respect for Canon, however, Sony have have left Nikon and Canon CEO's either day-dreaming or asleep in their response. Nikon and Canon may well argue that EVF and mirrorless technology in general has not matured enough, however, I have spoken to photographers who are in the midst of arranging pro Sony loan kits.
I have owned many DSLR’s. Nikon - from screw driven F4 to the Nikon D4. In the past 4 years Canon 1DX MKII’s - better at tracking than the Nikon D4 (Nikkor lenses calibrated to bodies), especially using Canon’s F/2.8 wider array AF points and F/4 array outer AF points, with or without Canon's 1.4 or 2X MK III converters attached to either a Canon 400mm f/2.8 and 600mm f/4 MKII lenses. When I was loaned a Canon 1D MKI and 400mm f/2.8 lens I carried out detailed side by side tests against my Nikon D4 on an athlete zig zagging towards the camera (both fired at the same time). I have not used the Nikon D5 but colleagues report, as expected, that the Nikon D5 AF system is much improved.
I changed from Nikon to Canon as my D4 and D800 suffered the same 'totally inaccurate' AF to the left side of the AF layout - both cameras were replaced by Nikon but suffered the same issues, something I was not prepared to tolerate (more evident with shorter focal length lenses the 14-24mm and 24-70mm F/2.8 Nikkor lenses).
I didn’t envisage moving to Sony and was waiting for Canon to react but they have been far too slow in producing a Sony A9 competitor. Both Nikon and Canon will respond, Sony representatives have made comments to this effect in the media.
If Canon (or Nikon) were to soon to announce a Sony A9 competitor (even if it still slightly lagged behind the rumoured Sony A9 MKII), and produce Canon DO L series super-telephoto lenses (600mm F/4 L prototype shown approx 4 years ago) or could shrink the size of super-telephoto lenses the way they have incredibly shortened the new 70-200mm F/2.8 R series lens I would imagine this would halt any thoughts of changing - Sony have committed themselves, presumably for several years, to traditional (still bulky) super-telephoto lenses - albeit now hand holdable with superb AF speed and optics.
Over the years, when I have changed systems, with an interest in optics I have accurately tested lenses side-by-side - not test charts! Although the sensor is an influencing factor I feel confident enough to state that Sony’s 400mm F/2.8 G master lens has higher resolution edge to edge and a beautiful clarity that none of my previously owned 400mm lenses could match - I have owned several Canon and Nikon 400mm lenses, going way back when they used to weigh 6.5 kilos!
Not only are Sony producing state of the art camera technology but pushing lens manufacturing techniques with extreme aspherical element precision that appears unmatched. The Sony 135mm F/1.8 looks stunning and the 24mm F/1.4, from real world tests shows no coma in the corners at F/1.4 compared to the top of the range Zeiss Otus 28mm F/1.4 - Sony 24mm 1.4 appears to be an astro photographers dream lens.
Yes, Sony's latest releases of their top end lenses have been industry leading. Coupled with the abilities of the A9...they must deliver outstanding images.
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for the detailed and interesting answer.
The a9 with the latest firmware may be even better, but the D5 tracks significantly better than the 1DxII.
Anyway, I have sold my D850 and am in the process of selling my D5. My 400mm f2.8 E FL is gone too, I wasn’t using it enough recently to justify keeping it.
Right now I shoot with a Z7 and recently GFX100. I’ll see what Nikon comes up with with the Z9 and decide whether I stick or move to Sony. ;)
Canon hasn’t released any camera I have found appealing since the 1Ds, but Sony is coming up with extremely interesting equipment these days.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for the detailed and interesting answer.
The a9 with the latest firmware may be even better, but the D5 tracks significantly better than the 1DxII.
Anyway, I have sold my D850 and am in the process of selling my D5. My 400mm f2.8 E FL is gone too, I wasn’t using it enough recently to justify keeping it.
Right now I shoot with a Z7 and recently GFX100. I’ll see what Nikon comes up with with the Z9 and decide whether I stick or move to Sony. ;)
Canon hasn’t released any camera I have found appealing since the 1Ds, but Sony is coming up with extremely interesting equipment these days.
Cheers,
Bernard
As a fellow Z7 user, I'll watch your decision process with interest.
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Bernard has the new 100MP Fuji and neither the A7riii or Z7 will really compete with that if your aim is large prints. To me it kind of puts pressure on the the Z7. When will you use the Z7? Not when you want max quality because then you will use the Fuji. If you want high performance body and convenience then the Z6 would be a better choice. The A9 even better I suppose. What else is in you cupboard or bag heavily influences these decisions.
What do you think Bernard? At one point I used a Canon 1DMKiii for performance and a Leaf Altus 7 for high quality. Are you not in that type of situation now? I’m curious about your thinking on this.
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The A9 is very much a breakout product - a first-generation action body which, for the first time, demonstrated the viability of mirrorless cameras for shooting fast action, with the ability to keep up with SLRs, but with all the flaws common in early-generation bodies. Updated with the latest firmware, it has the best AF system I've used, but that still doesn't alter its shortcomings in these other areas which affect usability. It is, in effect, a proof-of-concept model - a very high-performing one, for sure, but still a technology demonstrator rather than a fully mature camera. I would expect most, if not all, of these shortcomings to be rectified in a second-generation A9II.
Among these shortcomings:
- Slow second card slot. The system is only as fast as its slowest component, and this is an action camera designed to shoot at 20fps.
- Physically fragile flash mount
- Slow mechanical shutter - only 5fps when not using full electronic shutter, which matters when shooting with flash, since readout is currently much slower than a mechanical second curtain.
- Some readout issues when shooting very fast movement (e.g. explosions or muzzle flash) with electronic shutter. It appears that readout occurs in bands, rather than individual lines, which can cause such fast-moving objects to appear as steplike bands, rather than the smooth rolling shutter effect you get from a mechanical second curtain.
- General firmware issues. I don't mean AF - I mean things like menus, customisation, file handling, etc., all of which impact on general usability. For instance, it would be very nice to have an option for the two SD cards to mirror each other - delete a photo from one and it disappears from both - acting purely as a data redundancy system. Or the option to focus wide open (or at a certain minimum f-stop) and stop down for exposure, allowing for even faster AF, but risking focus shift, just like other cameras. And there are many other, similar improvements which could be made that don't affect technical performance, but greatly affect usability.
None of this stops me using the A9, of course, but it should be seen as what it is - a first-generation mirrorless action camera - rather than as a fully mature system. It is to mirrorless AF what the A7r was to full-frame mirrorless in general, or the 5D2 to digital full-frame - a breakout first-generation product which excels in the area of technology it is designed to showcase, while having other shorcomings which affect its usability in comparison with more mature systems.
I'm very much looking forward to the A9II - I would expect most of these shortcomings to be addressed, while introducing improvements and new technologies making it worth the upgrade. In particular, a resolution increase to 36-42MP (39MP is needed for 8k video when shooting with a 3:2 aspect ratio) would make it a viable replacement for the A7r3 as a do-everything body, while a global shutter would change everything with regards to flash photography.. The first is more likely than the second, but neither can be discounted completely (I think global shutter is more likely to come in the next generation after that, though).
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Another feature of the A9 is its total silent shooting. The main White House photographer uses A9's now strictly for its silent shooting. I think this will become the norm for many events as a row of photographers clicking away at an event is very distracting. I've even heard wildlife photographers say the shutter sound scares away wildlife at times.
Interesting to see what Sony releases for the Tokyo Olympics.
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Another feature of the A9 is its total silent shooting. The main White House photographer uses A9's now strictly for its silent shooting. I think this will become the norm for many events as a row of photographers clicking away at an event is very distracting. I've even heard wildlife photographers say the shutter sound scares away wildlife at times.
Interesting to see what Sony releases for the Tokyo Olympics.
Many mirrorless cameras have total silent shooting (electronic shutter). The "only" advantage of A9 is that its silent shooting is working well for sports. For White House photography, any camera with electronic shutter would work work, I guess.
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Many mirrorless cameras have total silent shooting (electronic shutter). The "only" advantage of A9 is that its silent shooting is working well for sports. For White House photography, any camera with electronic shutter would work work, I guess.
The scan time of most FF MILCs as about 1/15 to 1/20 second. The a9 scans about ten times that fast. That means that the slit widths are ten times as great. That means much less difficulty with lighting-related banding. Also, when scanning at 1/20 second or so, camera and subject motion can often be an issue in other situations than sports. But not at 1/160 second.
The a9 is a game-changer for non-sporting events; At least, it's changed my game.
Jim
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The scan time of most FF MILCs as about 1/15 to 1/20 second. The a9 scans about ten times that fast. That means that the slit widths are ten times as great. That means much less difficulty with lighting-related banding. Also, when scanning at 1/20 second or so, camera and subject motion can often be an issue in other situations than sports. But not at 1/160 second.
The a9 is a game-changer for non-sporting events; At least, it's changed my game.
Jim
Good point about light related banding, Jim. I have not noticed any issues with 1/15 scan time when shooting slow moving people, but in theory, it could become an issue.
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Good point about light related banding, Jim. I have not noticed any issues with 1/15 scan time when shooting slow moving people, but in theory, it could become an issue.
Here's the difference in a nutshell for me: when I use the a9, I almost always use silent shutter. When I use a Zx or a7x, I rarely use the silent shutter.
Jim
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SB you have mentioned the weak A9 hot shoe on more than one occasion. It seems OK to me, rock solid. Did a bit of research on it and came up with a Sony recall and free repair on certain sequence of serial numbers. If you have a camera that falls within this range, and it’s quite early in the camera history, you have until end of 2020 to get the free repair.
Ha e you had any issues with your hot shoe? Are you aware on any other issues related to the A9 hotshoe? Any other information would be appreciated. As I say my hot shoe seems 100% and while I don’t abuse my equipment it does work hard and often and I like to be aware of potential issues. Thanks.
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Here's the difference in a nutshell for me: when I use the a9, I almost always use silent shutter. When I use a Zx or a7x, I rarely use the silent shutter.
Jim
Why Jim? Is it because of the faster read out of the A9 and no distortion on moving objects? Lack of banding? Have you become used to shooting silently or do you use the audio on to notify you when a shot is made?
I find I’m shooting silently almost constantly and don't really notice that there is no audio feedback.
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Why Jim? Is it because of the faster read out of the A9 and no distortion on moving objects? Lack of banding? Have you become used to shooting silently or do you use the audio on to notify you when a shot is made?
I find I’m shooting silently almost constantly and don't really notice that there is no audio feedback.
Distortion and banding. Banding is what I run into at events the most with a slow-scanning shutter.
I usually leave the audio feedback turned off. The downside at high frame rates is I don't know how many frames I've exposed with each push of the shutter release.
Jim
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Distortion and banding. Banding is what I run into at events the most with a slow-scanning shutter.
I usually leave the audio feedback turned off. The downside at high frame rates is I don't know how many frames I've exposed with each push of the shutter release.
Jim
Thanks for the reply. My experiences mirror yours. It’s such a weird camera to me that I am curious if my experiences are the same as other people’s. I don’t personally know anyone else using an A9. All my photographer friends are shooting Nikon, Canon and Sony.
I thought that the high frame rate silent shooting would be something of not much use but turns out not to be so. I have become quite fond of the A9
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SB you have mentioned the weak A9 hot shoe on more than one occasion. It seems OK to me, rock solid. Did a bit of research on it and came up with a Sony recall and free repair on certain sequence of serial numbers. If you have a camera that falls within this range, and it’s quite early in the camera history, you have until end of 2020 to get the free repair.
Ha e you had any issues with your hot shoe? Are you aware on any other issues related to the A9 hotshoe? Any other information would be appreciated. As I say my hot shoe seems 100% and while I don’t abuse my equipment it does work hard and often and I like to be aware of potential issues. Thanks.
The pins on the Sony hotshoe (not unique to the A9) are much more eaaily damaged than the contacts on the Canon and Nikon hotshoes.
The construction of the hotshoe also seems a lot more lightweight than the Canon/Nikon one.
I've seen one instance of the metal of the hotshoe bending when a large speedlight attached to it was accidentally knocked on a branch.
In short, I'd happily attach a V860II or other similar large speedlight to a 5D4, 1Dx, D5 or D850 for light shooting, where i don't expect the gear to be jostled around much. I wouldn't trust the Sony hotshoe with that much leverage, in case the flash gets bumped - the Sony hotshoe is best used to attach a RF controller, with flash units attached to a flash bracket and controlled remotely.
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Thanks for the reply. My experiences mirror yours. It’s such a weird camera to me that I am curious if my experiences are the same as other people’s. I don’t personally know anyone else using an A9. All my photographer friends are shooting Nikon, Canon and Sony.
I thought that the high frame rate silent shooting would be something of not much use but turns out not to be so. I have become quite fond of the A9
The A9's electronic shutter does a lot better with rolling shutter issues caused my artificial lighting than most other sensors out there, since the readout is much faster. But it's still there, and can still show itself if the subject and lighting are right. This isn't unique to electronic shutters - a mechanical curtain shutter can do the same thing. But mechanical shutters are a lot faster than most electronic shutters and are less likely to show it.
A global shutter would eliminate the issue entirely, but that's probably two generations away, and may show up on an APS-C body first.
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A global shutter would eliminate the issue entirely, but that's probably two generations away, and may show up on an APS-C body first.
Actually a global shutter is one of the rumours for the A92...stay tuned!
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Actually a global shutter is one of the rumours for the A92...stay tuned!
An electronic global shutter of 1/1000s or shorter you mean?- That would be a game changer, but probably too difficult to realize at this moment.
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An electronic global shutter of 1/1000s or shorter you mean?- That would be a game changer, but probably too difficult to realize at this moment.
I know Sony already has sensors with global shutters but I don't know the specs. When Sony says revolutionary as they talk about the A92, this would be one feature to make it so.
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I know Sony already has sensors with global shutters but I don't know the specs. When Sony says revolutionary as they talk about the A92, this would be one feature to make it so.
Those are still video oriented sensors that sacrifice about one stop of DR; they use half the area of each photosite to store the previous frame being read out while the other half is accumulating the next frame. This type of global shutter has been around for many years but is never used in stills-oriented cameras. I don’t expect that to change until the DR loss is overcome. Panasonic is working on an alternative, using a layer in front of the sensor that can be electrically switched from transparent to opaque.