Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: DaveRosenthal on December 23, 2018, 08:58:35 pm
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Well, I've had my IQ4/150 for a few days now (coming from a IQ3/100) and I thought I would post my first thoughts for everyone interested. Rather than a big narrative, I'll just make some lists.
The good:
- The new interface (swipe in from the sides for stuff) works very well and UI responsiveness is greatly improved everywhere.
- High ISO noise. Looks to be ~1-1.5 stops better than IQ3--a great advance.
- Shooting speed is faster. Probably very helpful for a portrait session.
- The resolution increase is meaningful. Yes, 150MP is only a 22% increase in linear resolution, but you can crop tighter, etc. and good lenses still render pixel-sharp results so we are nowhere close to done with resolution improvements. I made a 4:3 vertical crop of a horizontal photo and still had 84 MP to work with for an awesome print :)
- Live preview is completely next level (fast; focus peaking; raw histogram/clipping indication; 1:1 zoom is actually sharp)
- Image review is amazing (quite fast; zoom shows "actual pixels" from the raw file; can zoom in far e.g. 800%)
- The rear LCD is color managed and with "capture one inside" you really see what the photo you just captured will look like on the computer.
- Charges from USB-C at 5V/2.4A (~12 watts).
Minor issues:
- Power sharing between camera and back is not working yet
- Various little bugs in the super early 1.0 firmware
- Non-linear battery percentage. Seems like it holds at 95%+ for a while, then drops much faster.
- Only charges from USB-C if the camera is "on" (pulls 5V/2.4A), so I'll need to do the battery shuffle rather than just plug it in when I get home. (Was really hoping this ability would be enabled with IQ4.)
- I'm seeing a *tiny* bit of banding. I'm talking about shooting ISO 1600 then pushing 3 stops and looking in the shadows to see barely detectable amounts, but still, I never saw banding in my IQ3 files.
The ugly (as of firmware 1.00.2):
- Boot time is 19-20 seconds.
- As I understand it (I use XF) some tech cam workflows still aren't enabled yet (e.g. shutter sync).
- Battery life: OK, this is scary for those of us who work untethered. Here's the test I did: I put a fresh battery in the IQ4 back, turned it on, and did nothing else (no WIFI, etc.). After 20 minutes my thermal camera measured the outside of it at 47C! Internal temperatures were as high 59C (for the "SYSMON PS"). During this most boring of tests, it drained a brand new, 100% charged, 3400mAh battery in only 1h:55m (!). Again, this is just sitting there with the screen off--no photos taken. This implies an idle power consumption of 12.8 (!!!) watts. This is well over an order of magnitude more power draw than a comparable ARM/linux device like a tablet. I am seriously crossing my fingers something can be done about this in a firmware update. Until then I will pack copious batteries, set a super-aggressive power off timeout, and get used to that boot sequence...
Overall, it is meeting my high expectations as an upgrade from the IQ3/100 save the battery life issue. I am really looking forward to all of the updates that I think they will be able to push to this camera over time. I few that I would really love:
- Automated focus trim (rather than the current assist tool): Just let me point the camera at a target and press a button!
- Live view auto focus: Let me touch a point during live preview and get a really good focus (for landscape-from-tripod use case so fine if it's kind of slow).
- Sync photos on camera's memory card to USB-C SSD with an option to either clone camera state incrementally (rsync), or just dump photos and remove them from the internal card.
- Post-capture focus mask: Right after I take a photo, I want a *quick* way to tell if I hit focus--a two-level focus mask (1:roughly in focus, 2:critically sharp) would be amazing. Bonus points for having it overlay only when I hold down a button or on-screen icon.
Let me know if you guys have any questions, and I'm curious to hear what features you all would like to see roll out in future IQ4 firmwares.
Best,
Dave
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Thanks for the report.
I find it a bit sad to see that P1 is now following the terrible example of Hasselblad in terms of releasing to the market cameras that are far from ready with very significant issues...
Cheers,
Bernard
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I find it a bit sad to see that P1 is now following the terrible example of Hasselblad in terms of releasing to the market cameras that are far from ready with very significant issues...
Bernard, I get that sentiment, and while I have no personal experience with Hasselblad, the tradeoff of when to ship a product is always interesting. The calculus for hardware and software is very different: You release hardware when it is perfect; you release software when it is net positive vs. the alternative and then improve it from there. With cameras like the IQ4 being highly software driven, I can understand the decision that Phase is making. I would always prefer no issues, but am actually happy to make the trade given that I have an amazing new camera in time for an upcoming trip. Finally, because Phase provides excellent support via their dealers, you can always get help if an early issue causes too many troubles.
All that said, I really hope the power consumption is not fundamental to the hardware!
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Thanks for the info.
I still find it a bit disconcerting that P1 still can't make a back that can turn on and be available in 2 to 3 seconds. Fuji figured out how to make the 50Mp Sony chip come on and be available instantly, unlike the IQ250/350.
I realize that P1 goes through a lot on boot, and now they claim the software in the IQ4 is equivalent or more than a modern iPad, and is I believe Linux based? But you can turn on an iPad in 1 second.
Needing the back to be available in a faster time frame is important, but the points you have made about overall power consumption are even more interesting. P1 should be able to get someone to make a 5000K or larger milliamp battery that fits in the current opening of the back. Maybe with more firmware updates, the power consumption can be better controller. The overall heat being generated probably not, and again that also is concerning for overall image quality.
Paul C
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Not really true even my new iPad Pro takes a while to boot. ;)
I never had a problem that the IQ3100 took to long. Especially as the stand by mode worked great.
The IQ4 certainly takes a little longer, but I will have to see in longer usage if it really is annoys me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well, good point as most times I never turn off an iPhone or iPad, thus it's not really booting up. But points to same problem that power consumption limits a similar type of use with a P1 back, i.e. sleep and instant on. You basically never really turn off any iOS device, unless you have a problem (I never do), they just go to sleep.
I am sure the good out weighs the bad for those who have made the upgrade. Image quality for sure seems improved.
Paul C
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Thanks for the info.
I still find it a bit disconcerting that P1 still can't make a back that can turn on and be available in 2 to 3 seconds. Fuji figured out how to make the 50Mp Sony chip come on and be available instantly, unlike the IQ250/350.
I realize that P1 goes through a lot on boot, and now they claim the software in the IQ4 is equivalent or more than a modern iPad, and is I believe Linux based? But you can turn on an iPad in 1 second.
Needing the back to be available in a faster time frame is important, but the points you have made about overall power consumption are even more interesting. P1 should be able to get someone to make a 5000K or larger milliamp battery that fits in the current opening of the back. Maybe with more firmware updates, the power consumption can be better controller. The overall heat being generated probably not, and again that also is concerning for overall image quality.
Paul C
I wouldn’t mind an initial 20 second boot if the back could idle for a day and use 20% of it’s battery life. This would be like an iPad. If that’s not achievable, maybe there is a “standby” mode the back could enter than had some useful combination of wake time and power consumption. (Say, less than 2 seconds to wake and more than 2 days of standby time.)
Regarding heat, well, anything than fixes power consumption will of course also fix the heat. But I don’t think the heat I was measuring is an issue for performance other than dark current noise affecting very long exposures.
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Dave, I have been using the IQ4 150 for a few days and find your first thoughts accurate; there are indeed glitches (actually, a few that I could have added to your list) but I think it’s a great product with great potential.
I also agree that the main issue is battery life and share your strong feeling that this should be solved. I would add, though, that with the IQ4 you can use an external power bank, of the kind used to charge cell phones and iPads. On the downside, it's not great when using the camera handheld, and this I really don’t like; but on the upside, I find it reassuring that you no longer depend on batteries for power wherever you go.
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I'm very concerned about the heat build up and battery life. A lot of my exposures are in the 30sec to 240sec range. Have either of you done long exposure testing with the IQ4 150? If so, what has your experience been? I'm wondering if I should delay delivery until they get some of these issues worked out. Thanks for the info.
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I'm very concerned about the heat build up and battery life. A lot of my exposures are in the 30sec to 240sec range. Have either of you done long exposure testing with the IQ4 150? If so, what has your experience been?
All of our long exposure tests show absolutely excellent results, without the need to wait for a dark frame after.
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I'm very concerned about the heat build up and battery life. A lot of my exposures are in the 30sec to 240sec range. Have either of you done long exposure testing with the IQ4 150? If so, what has your experience been? I'm wondering if I should delay delivery until they get some of these issues worked out. Thanks for the info.
Power consumption and heat are very fundamental aspects of a device operation. If the image quality is as desired -the distinguishing aspect of this product- then probably you need to be accepting of the other issues, with the added hope that things may improve later on the secondary functional aspects.
My personal feeling is that Phase are moving increasingly to providing photography for platforms where camera power consumption is secondary, eg. cultural work in studios, on site, and aerial mapping, and therefore power consumption is not really a design priority anymore. Electronic devices that are designed for low power are usually very specific designs from the ground up.
Edmund
Edmund
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My personal feeling is that Phase are moving increasingly to providing photography for platforms where camera power consumption is secondary, eg. cultural work in studios, on site, and aerial mapping, and therefore power consumption is not really a design priority anymore. Electronic devices that are designed for low power are usually very specific designs from the ground up.
Just the opposite. Portability is far more important than it was in years past. The days where medium format was mostly a studio-based endeavor are literally a decade in the rearview mirror.
The Aerial line (iXA) and CH line (iXG) cameras that Phase One makes are AC powered and entirely irrelevant to this conversation.
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Just the opposite. Portability is far more important than it was in years past. The days where medium format was mostly a studio-based endeavor are literally a decade in the rearview mirror.
The Aerial line (iXA) and CH line (iXG) cameras that Phase One makes are AC powered and entirely irrelevant to this conversation.
Doug,
If you believe that battery performance will be improved - why do't you just say so?
Edmund
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Just the opposite. Portability is far more important than it was in years past. The days where medium format was mostly a studio-based endeavor are literally a decade in the rearview mirror.
Agreed... but how does the monstrous XF body fit in that picture?
Cheers,
Bernard
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All of our long exposure tests show absolutely excellent results, without the need to wait for a dark frame after.
Thanks Doug for the feedback. Not having to wait for a dark frame is a huge time saver for me. A 20sec boot time is a pain but more than offset by the time savings of not doing a dark frame. Since my frame of reference is the IQ3 100, how would you compare battery life of the IQ4 150 to the IQ3 100? Also Doug, what firmware version are they on now?
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Since my frame of reference is the IQ3 100, how would you compare battery life of the IQ4 150 to the IQ3 100? Also Doug, what firmware version are they on now?
DT did not do any direct/controlled comparisons of battery life during our first round of IQ4 testing; we were focused on image quality of the back, and performance of various lenses at 150mp. I would expect to get into another round of IQ4 testing in the early new year and will gladly include battery life in that testing.
Firmware 1.0 is the current public firmware. Slightly newer firmware may be shipping with units off the production line this week; typically new firmware is rolled out to the production line first (since they have them in-hand and can thoroughly vet the new firmware) before they roll out that new firmware to current owners in the form of free updates.
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Agreed... but how does the monstrous XF body fit in that picture?
As one of the many options (Arca, Cambo, Alpa, XF etc etc) that Phase One users have depending on their needs, preferences, and budgets.
The weight of an XF and IQ4 is much larger than a Sony A with kit lens (which in turn is much larger than an iPhone), and much less than an 8x10 film camera with heavy wooden tripods. Great images have been captured with all of these options, including in the middle of nowhere, on top of mountains, and in adverse weather.
Personally, I find an overemphasis on miniaturization to often to be to the determent of a camera's overall utility. For example, I love my Fuji X Pro, but I have to add a third party grip and thumb-hold to make it ergonomic for my hand. In contrast, the XF fits perfectly in my hand. Of course everyone's hands are different and everyone has a different point at which a camera is too heavy.
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As one of the many options (Arca, Cambo, Alpa, XF etc etc) that Phase One users have depending on their needs, preferences, and budgets.
The weight of an XF and IQ4 is much larger than a Sony A with kit lens (which in turn is much larger than an iPhone), and much less than an 8x10 film camera with heavy wooden tripods. Great images have been captured with all of these options, including in the middle of nowhere, on top of mountains, and in adverse weather.
Personally, I find an overemphasis on miniaturization to often to be to the determent of a camera's overall utility. For example, I love my Fuji X Pro, but I have to add a third party grip and thumb-hold to make it ergonomic for my hand. In contrast, the XF fits perfectly in my hand. Of course everyone's hands are different and everyone has a different point at which a camera is too heavy.
Doug,
Let me give an alternate facts reading of that: A camera can never be too high hrez, too large to impress customers, or too light a load for one's ageing knees to schlepp it upslope - but it doesn't have to be the same camera which does all of the above :)
Edmund
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...A camera can never be too high hrez, too large to impress customers, or too light a load for one's ageing knees to schlepp it upslope - but it doesn't have to be the same camera which does all of the above :)
The perfect camera costs $0, folds into the size of a coin (any smaller and you might lose it), has infinite ISO range, temperature-appropriate dispensers for red wine, scotch, espresso, and neosporin, and comes with a free kit lens with an infinite zoom and f/0 max aperture. It requires no menu, no buttons, and no power; it anticipates your intentions before you have them. It summons golden hour, double rainbows, or moody storms according to your preference. It inspires confidence in anyone you point it at, even your camera-shy relatives. Owning it means models show up on time, clients drop their weird requests, and invoices are paid on time. A special mode halts or even reverses aging, and the instruction manual reveals a surefire path to living a satisfying, meaningful, and enjoyable life.
Until we have that, every camera is a compromise of physical, performance, price, and philosophical factors. Different people will prioritize those factors differently and the same person might even prioritize these factors different from one day to the next, and that's not only okay, that's awesome.
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The perfect camera costs $0, folds into the size of a coin (any smaller and you might lose it), has infinite ISO range, temperature-appropriate dispensers for red wine, scotch, espresso, and neosporin, and comes with a free kit lens with an infinite zoom and f/0 max aperture. It requires no menu, no buttons, and no power; it anticipates your intentions before you have them. It summons golden hour, double rainbows, or moody storms according to your preference. It inspires confidence in anyone you point it at, even your camera-shy relatives. Owning it means models show up on time, clients drop their weird requests, and invoices are paid on time. A special mode halts or even reverses aging, and the instruction manual reveals a surefire path to living a satisfying, meaningful, and enjoyable life.
Until we have that, every camera is a compromise of physical, performance, price, and philosophical factors. Different people will prioritize those factors differently and the same person might even prioritize these factors different from one day to the next, and that's not only okay, that's awesome.
Now you're talking!
How are your book sales going?
Edmund
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I've been renting the 4150 the last few days to do a leather-sample project. In regards to the battery capacity, it is reminiscent of the original IQ series; the back does not accurately measure how much capacity is left in the battery. The back will blink battery dead, and alarm "not enough battery capacity", but when I pull out that battery and charge it the charger says 30% remaining.
So, good sign this will be improved with firmware.
Dave
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Should have been fixed before release. SAD to see the same old tech batteries being used still. They should be able develop a battery with more milliamperes.
At least IMO.
Paul C
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Should have been fixed before release. SAD to see the same old tech batteries being used still. They should be able develop a battery with more milliamperes.
At least IMO.
Paul C
If they’re like most batteries, they’re not really batteries, they’re just a case containing some cells made by some company. Since the XF uses the same “battery", I think we’re stuck with the overall size/style for some time. So without making them larger, it seems it might be possible to re-engineer what’s inside to get a little more storage. I haven’t torn one apart to see what cells are actually being used, maybe they’re the typical round style so quite a bit of extra space to use - and maybe they’ve maximized them with a custom rectangular cell. It could be they just don’t have the resources to have custom cells designed to utilize the internal space. considering a Pixel 2SL has a 3500ma battery and still room for the screen and electronics, it seems they could be more efficient.
But as mentioned, the firmware is still being tweaked, and I think battery life will get better. I for one have no problem with it, I’d rather get my back mid January when it looks like it will arrive, and survive carrying a few extra batteries with me than wait while they tinker around with the firmware.
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If they’re like most batteries, they’re not really batteries, they’re just a case containing some cells made by some company. Since the XF uses the same “battery", I think we’re stuck with the overall size/style for some time. So without making them larger, it seems it might be possible to re-engineer what’s inside to get a little more storage. I haven’t torn one apart to see what cells are actually being used, maybe they’re the typical round style so quite a bit of extra space to use - and maybe they’ve maximized them with a custom rectangular cell. It could be they just don’t have the resources to have custom cells designed to utilize the internal space. considering a Pixel 2SL has a 3500ma battery and still room for the screen and electronics, it seems they could be more efficient.
But as mentioned, the firmware is still being tweaked, and I think battery life will get better. I for one have no problem with it, I’d rather get my back mid January when it looks like it will arrive, and survive carrying a few extra batteries with me than wait while they tinker around with the firmware.
Low volume european tech. You need to be realistic, the thing works as specced from reports here, it's the world's highest resolution single-shot consumer camera, and so some compromises eg. battery life or display quality are inevitable in a low-volume high-margin design.
Let's give them some credit - at least according to reports it works fine to make images.
Edmund
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Nice one Doug, reminds me of this Tom Waits song :) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_snSkpULQ
The perfect camera costs $0, folds into the size of a coin (any smaller and you might lose it), has infinite ISO range, temperature-appropriate dispensers for red wine, scotch, espresso, and neosporin, and comes with a free kit lens with an infinite zoom and f/0 max aperture. It requires no menu, no buttons, and no power; it anticipates your intentions before you have them. It summons golden hour, double rainbows, or moody storms according to your preference. It inspires confidence in anyone you point it at, even your camera-shy relatives. Owning it means models show up on time, clients drop their weird requests, and invoices are paid on time. A special mode halts or even reverses aging, and the instruction manual reveals a surefire path to living a satisfying, meaningful, and enjoyable life.
Until we have that, every camera is a compromise of physical, performance, price, and philosophical factors. Different people will prioritize those factors differently and the same person might even prioritize these factors different from one day to the next, and that's not only okay, that's awesome.
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That battery is not actually "low volume European tech" - it's an old Canon camcorder battery - so old (first used in 1997, if not earlier) that Canon no longer makes them as far as I can see, although they do make thicker versions that work on camcorders that hang the battery externally. The Phase One branded batteries have a higher listed capacity than the only other options (inexpensive no-name replacements)...
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The last change to the P1 battery was the 3400 milliamperes version Li-on.
There are tons literally tons of companies that are making batteries that P1 could have approached to figure out a better solution. It seems that the problems are both the fact that the current firmware is not reading the Li-on battery info correctly so the back is shutting off with as much as 30% of battery left, not so great for someone using the back for longer exposures. And the current battery at 3400 millamperes is not able to carry the back for a very long period of time, if Live View is used.
Phase had plenty of time to firgure out a new battery for this back. Sure the battery is a old Canon design, but I don’t believe the Canon designs were Li-on, but NiMh. And yes the Canon batteries that are rated at a great milliamperes are taller. You used to be able to use these in the old P45+ style backs, but the later IQ backs design went internal.
The Phase battery has always been a weakness IMO. And to bring out a back with a huge improvement in capabilities (from previous P1 quotes, it has the same processing power as a modern iPad), and then use the same old battery tech? To me very short sighted. Firmware can only do so much to alivaite this. And if I read correctly the IQ3 power share tech currently doesn’t work on the IQ4?
I realize you can just get a banderalio and carry a lot of batteries in the field, like when I used to use a P45+, but it’s been over 11 years since that back was announced and shipped and P1 is still on pretty much the same battery tech Li-on.
Everyone has their own acceptance levels. It took P1 over 1 year to finally fix my XF’s battery door issue so change does come slowly for them.
Paul C
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That battery is not actually "low volume European tech" - it's an old Canon camcorder battery - so old (first used in 1997, if not earlier) that Canon no longer makes them as far as I can see, although they do make thicker versions that work on camcorders that hang the battery externally. The Phase One branded batteries have a higher listed capacity than the only other options (inexpensive no-name replacements)...
Dan,
The small company product I meant is the camera.
New regulations put an end to the arms race for battery capacity in consumer camcorders, I think, which may be why there is no decent novel off the shelf solution for Phase to adopt. The advantage of off-the-shelf is that an ecosystem of contacts, chargers etc already exists for the designers to make use of - battery related issues - and especially battery contacts - are a notorious death trap for all electronic designs, and a small company will do well to stay with a design which has proved reliable if not efficient.
Edmund
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My guess is 3400 is enough. Sure it’s not the top position, but as far as I know the x1d doesn’t have more not does Fuji’s gfx have or need.
I’m pretty confident that battery life will be very close to the IQ3 with XF and that has been excellent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The capacity (Wh or Ws = unit of energy, like Nm and Joule) of the PhaseOne battery is 7,2 V x 3.400 mAh = 24.480 mWh.
The capacity of the Fuji GFX battery is 10,8 V x 1.250 mAh = 13.500 mWh.
(the mAh value alone is meaningless without the operational voltage)
So, the PhaseOne battery provides nearly twice the capacity of the Fuji, but I it seams the PhaseOne backs consume 'much more' than the Fuji cameras, so the time of usage and the number of shots is less.
PS: European usage of <,> and <.> in numbers ;-)
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As I said it certainly not a battery problem ;) the capacity is more than enough
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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As I said it certainly not a battery problem ;) the capacity is more than enough
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think this is a case where time will tell.
Comparing with Fuji is not so useful. The sensor doesn't eat up any juice hen it's not actually in use AFAIK as it is CMOS. The culprit is probably a powerful and power hungry off the shelf embedded computer they dropped in the back to "run C1". Maybe when someone does a disassembly of one of these we'll know more.
Edmund
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OP here providing a bit of an update after a few days of use of the camera on the aforementioned trip.
Regarding all of the battery talk, as was pointed out, the IQ+XF system has quite a large battery already (50 watt-hours total.) The idea of Phase improving battery life by improving batteries is fairly absurd—the technology is already pushed to the limits by the entire electronics industry and I’m sure they are already sourcing the best ones they can. A 25% improvement would be unreasonable to expect and would take the 2 hour idle time to 2.5 hours—nothing. The attack must come from the power consumption side.
That said, the battery life that I first reported on hasn’t been a real issue for me so far in field usage for a few days. I carry my camera in a pack for landscape work and now just get used to hitting the power button first when taking it out of my pack and powering it down. Actually using the camera (I.e. live preview, reviewing photos, taking photos, etc.) doesn’t seem to drain battery particularly quickly.
Some other notes after a few more days of usage:
- I *absoutely love* the ability to check focus in both live and review modes. This is a game changer for me. When I use my Phase it is because I am seeking resolution for a large print and with the XF3 there was absoutely no way to tell if you have really nailed focus/vibration until you open the file on your computer. This has already saved several shots for me as I realized, for example, that a 1/10 sec exposure on my 240mm, even in vibration delay mode, was subject to vibration blur that I wouldn’t have been able to detect on my IQ3.
- The speed of operation is great.
- The touch screen is slightly fidgity in terms of where you click, recognizing swipes, etc. No worse than IQ3 (or basically any other non-smartphone touch screen) but this could be improved. Part of the issue is the screen is not a modern full-stack lamination so there is a fair amount of parallax between emissive screen pixels and touch surface and you are often using a camera touch screen from a funny angle.
- Well, this will be no surprise, but camera technique is crucial for exploiting the entire 150MP with shutter speeds < 4*focal length.
- The exposure preview in live mode is awesome. But, it should do something smarter to emulate longer exposures than simply drop the frame rate to equal the shutter speed.
- I did a bit of long-exposure work with and without dark frame creation. No official test, but it seems like if you are only talking exposures of <10 seconds, you can avoid dark frames. I did some much longer exposures (5 min, 15 min) and dark frame creation seemed to reduce hot pixels considerably. I still need to pull the files into C1 to see how well hot pixel NR takes care of all of the issues. I also hesitate to call this a representative test because I was working in unusually dynamic and cold temperature conditions.
And one quirk to talk to Phase about when I get home:
- My 240BR fails to achieve infinity focus when it gets cold! I’ve been out in Wyoming and it’s been seriously cold (-15C). The lens works fine at room temp, but as it starts to cool down focus shifts. To be clear, this is not an AF issue. I can put the lens in MF mode, crank it all the way to the infinity hard stop and still be focusing on the midground! My 35BR actually seems to suffer the same fate, but the DOF at f8 is wide enough that it doesn’t matter (basically, the “infinity” hard stop is more of a hyper-focal distance.) Interestingly my 80mm seemed unaffected.
All in all, very happy to be using this amazing tool and, as I said before, I’m really excited to see where the Phase folks can take it from here.
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- I did a bit of long-exposure work with and without dark frame creation. No official test, but it seems like if you are only talking exposures of <10 seconds, you can avoid dark frames. I did some much longer exposures (5 min, 15 min) and dark frame creation seemed to reduce hot pixels considerably. I still need to pull the files into C1 to see how well hot pixel NR takes care of all of the issues. I also hesitate to call this a representative test because I was working in unusually dynamic and cold temperature conditions
Please do look at the files in C1 with 3 to 5 points of single-pixel noise reduction. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Then remember that the IQ4 now runs the same Capture One processing algorithms, so once you can apply a custom style in-back (or otherwise activate single-pixel noise reduction) you can expect the same results when reviewing in-back.
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Hello Dave,
I don't find the thoughts on a better battery absurd at all. It's old tech and the back took a huge tech improvement from the older IQ platform. I agree that working on power consumption would also be a benefit.
The tech of the current cells way old, over 4 years, now, and in the digital world that is much longer. The same battery that runs a P1 P45+ is the battery that is used in a P1 IQ4, which is going to take a much greater amount of battery, due to both processing for the new tech, and LiveView enhancements. Battery tech is complex, I fully understand that, but if you look into other industries that are battery dependent, I believe you will see a much better improvement. The Li-On cells in the P1 backs have limited intelligence, and really don't compare to most current camera batteries by other companies. The technology is out there to create a battery with 2x the milliamperes of the current cell, and if it cost 2x the price I would gladly pay it.
It would be a nice feature if P1 could get the power sharing to work again on the IQ4 and XF and I understand this is coming sometime in the future. Surprised it still was not available at 1st ship.
Glad you find the back to be an excellent upgrade from the XF and 100MP P1 solution.
Paul C
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Hello Dave,
The technology is out there to create a battery with 2x the milliamperes of the current cell, and if it cost 2x the price I would gladly pay it.
Paul C
And there you have the issue: The performance of a $30K device is defined by a $100 accessory, and the user is prepared to pay $200 for it. But in fact Phase can get the supplementary $100 immediately with no dev cost by selling extra $100 batteries to the users as they are a crucial item. In fact it is necessary to have 3 "small" batteries to replace one hypothetical "large" one, because of the time lost in precautionary power down and power up, so Phase actually gets $300 by not supplying the larger pack..An interesting case of economics guaranteeing the opposite effect of a fault being remedied: Phase has for years had an incentive not to improve its battery life excessively as batteries provide a minor but steady sales revenue to dealers of $500 or so per back per year, and continued inconvenience to the owner who needs to care for them and keep the little things topped up, so many of them - maybe a second charger can also be sold?
The lesson of the inkjet printer cartridges has not been lost on business school graduates. Anyone notice that if you own a photo printer there is always one cartridge shouting to be replaced?
Edmund
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And there you have the issue: The performance of a $30K device is defined by a $100 accessory, and the user is prepared to pay $200 for it. But in fact Phase can get the supplementary $100 immediately with no dev cost by selling extra $100 batteries to the users as they are a crucial item.
....
The lesson of the inkjet printer cartridges has not been lost on business school graduates. Anyone notice that if you own a photo printer there is always one cartridge shouting to be replaced?
Edmund
The Phase One battery is a nominal 25 watt-hours. It weighs 106 grams. That yields a power density of 230 Wh/kg. Compare this to the 250 Wh/kg for an individual cell in a modern Tesla (the pack itself is more like 170 WH/kg). If one could make batteries twice the capacity with the same size and weight, well, I hope they enjoy their billions well as they will help more than just Phase One users!
Some have suggested that Phase could have moved to a larger battery (in a different form factor) but personally I would much rather buy more and switch batteries if necessary so as to not crank the weight up any higher. Weight is my biggest challenge with the Phase—personally I would happily pay Phase at a rate of at least $5/gram to save weight from any part of the camera system. (E.g. I would buy a super-lightweight machined-magnesium XF body+finder which saved, say, 400g for a $2k premium any day of the week.)
At any rate, It’s fun to discuss the engineering tradeoffs of these systems. In a way they will never make total sense because they already trade off almost everything (especially price!) for a certain kind of performance.
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Not trying to make a big deal out the battery issue. I appears most using the new back are fine with both current issues (firmware not seeing full battery capacity, and power sharing not working). I am sure both will get fixed with firmware updates over time.
For me, I will stay the course, as I just expected a bit more tech in the new back after almost 3 years of the IQ3100. P1 feels it's not needed, I understand and can make a decision based on what is there. Obviously, I am very isolated in this opinion, but as a landscape shooter, never tethered, battery life is very important to me.
The disconnect between tethered/router available and Capture Pilot working (i.e. no adhoc network for out in the field) really surprised me more than battery life. Capture Pilot has become a pretty critical part of my workflow as with the last couple of firmware revs to IQ3100 the response time, and screen refresh time had gotten very acceptable, and it always give you the option to fire the shutter, no cabled remote.
Paul C
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Please do look at the files in C1 with 3 to 5 points of single-pixel noise reduction. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Then remember that the IQ4 now runs the same Capture One processing algorithms, so once you can apply a custom style in-back (or otherwise activate single-pixel noise reduction) you can expect the same results when reviewing in-back.
Thanks for the tip, Doug. I wasn’t sure if the single-pixel NR was part of the subset of algorithms that run in-camera but, given it is, I will certinally make a “long exposure” custom style for field use.
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For me, I will stay the course, as I just expected a bit more tech in the new back after almost 3 years of the IQ3100.
Paul, I get this sentiment completely. After using my IQ3 for years, I of course had dreams of of what an IQ3 successor could have been. Relative to that dream, the lack of advancement of the physical design was a bit disappointing and distracts (detracts?) from the substantial internal advancements. If the IQ4 generation was 2/3 the depth, 2/3 the weight, had a bigger, better screen, etc. it would have felt like a true next gen device.
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Paul, I get this sentiment completely. After using my IQ3 for years, I of course had dreams of of what an IQ3 successor could have been. Relative to that dream, the lack of advancement of the physical design was a bit disappointing and distracts (detracts?) from the substantial internal advancements. If the IQ4 generation was 2/3 the depth, 2/3 the weight, had a bigger, better screen, etc. it would have felt like a true next gen device.
And the same applies to the XF as far as I am concerned.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Please do look at the files in C1 with 3 to 5 points of single-pixel noise reduction. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Then remember that the IQ4 now runs the same Capture One processing algorithms, so once you can apply a custom style in-back (or otherwise activate single-pixel noise reduction) you can expect the same results when reviewing in-back.
Doug, I finally got the files back on a computer with some time to look at them. You were right--the previews on the back show give the impression that the "create" dark frame outperforms "prerecorded" dark frame. But, back in C1, long exposures with no darkframe creation (i.e. "prerecorded" in the menu) are perfect as far as I can tell with the 3-5 points of single pixel NR.
I was about to go out for a perfect dark sky photo op a few nights ago when the clouds rolled in... So, it turned into an impromptu testing session of stars against light clouds.
For anyone interested, attached is 100% crop of a 15 minute exposure with no dark frame creation (ISO 50, +1.5 stops exposure in C1) on the IQ4 150.
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I received my IQ4 yesterday so I took it out this AM to make sure it worked! Below are a couple of images that were quickly processed so excuse the flaws but it’s sometimes good to see real images. My testing is very superficial so take it for what’s worth. Dave provided a real initial review.
My observations are as follows –
• A significant step up in the user interface. Easier and faster to use in the field.
• Much easier to ensure your images are sharp.
• Battery life is a definitely an item that needs to be improved. I took about 80 images over about 1.5 hours with an average exposure of around 3 seconds. When I got home to charge the batteries they were almost completely drained. I normally don’t take that many images but it does use more battery power than the IQ100. I did not use live view.
• Both lenses (40-80 & 75-150) performed well in terms of sharpness. My hit rate was as good as the IQ100 (almost 100%). So as long as your technique is good and you have good lenses the extra MPs are a significant benefit.
• I experienced no bugs this morning. I had installed the latest firmware (1.01.18) before I took it out. Again, this was a very limited test.
• I did check the boot time and it was 17 seconds. Slower than I would like but not a real issue for me.
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And the same applies to the XF as far as I am concerned.
Oh, no it applies FAR more to the XF.
That camera is an ugly overweight beast, that has no place in the 21C, imho. :)
Sure it has some party tricks, like Focus stacking, etc. But that does not redeem it from mirror slap, slowness, single point focus, no EVF option, etc. (Yes I own one)
Best suggestion to breath life into it - an EVF WLF screen - so you can look down and shoot with ES, for silent vibration free images.
Phase are going to fade away unless they can release a mirrorless body in the next year.
Fuji GFX-100, with IBS, is going to annihilate them. Period.
Tech cameras are their only secure foothold, imho
I'm saying this as someone with a lot of $ invested in Phase and tech cameras.
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Still waiting to hear if P1 will enable Adhoc with future firmware, to allow Capture Pilot to connect in the field. No word on this as of yet. Not an EVF, (and I agree that one needs to happen for the XF somehow as the chip in the IQ4 surely has some type of phase detect focus capability. If not what a shame.
But not being able to use Capture Pilot to frame a shot, especially when the camera is low down (where I would normally using a tilting screen) is disconcerting for me. Just have gotten to used to using it both to trip the shutter on the XF and frame the shot.
Paul C
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Still waiting to hear if P1 will enable Adhoc with future firmware, to allow Capture Pilot to connect in the field. No word on this as of yet.
Not sure who you asked, but if you had asked me it would have been a right quick response...
Yes, the IQ4 wifi will be available via Adhoc. This was one of the obvious items that simply didn't get done in time for version 1.0 firmware, but will come via future firmware update.
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Good to know, thanks Doug,
Paul C
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Best suggestion to breath life into it - an EVF WLF screen - so you can look down and shoot with ES, for silent vibration free images.
Phase are going to fade away unless they can release a mirrorless body in the next year.
Fuji GFX-100, with IBS, is going to annihilate them. Period.
Tech cameras are their only secure foothold, imho
I'm saying this as someone with a lot of $ invested in Phase and tech cameras.
As a H6D-100c owner I feel exactly the same about the Hasselblad large sensor offering.
The X1D puts them overall in a better position but they appear to be moving much slower than Fuji also.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Actually the gfx100 won’t be mich smaller. Probably a lot lighter, but here Phase could do a lot by an evf instead of the super heavy viewfinder.
It still leaves the big mirror box, but it think the XF will be around for a while.
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Hopefully, the GFX100MP camera will get a few updates before it's finally released. Has to be one of the strangest looking bodies I have seen in years. As a GFX user, I prefer the body style without a built in grip/battery pack.
Late 2019 will be interesting for Fuji.
Paul C
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I would much rather have the 100MP in the GFX50R body!
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Ibis doesn’t fit in such a body. The GFX isn’t that strange it’s just like a 1D or Nikon Pro Level body. The final version will have the same shape, but certainly refined optics.
For me the GFX 50s shape in general is fantastic. Much better than the 50R or the new FF mirrorless cameras.
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Hopefully, the GFX100MP camera will get a few updates before it's finally released. Has to be one of the strangest looking bodies I have seen in years. As a GFX user, I prefer the body style without a built in grip/battery pack.
Late 2019 will be interesting for Fuji.
Paul C
IBIS for a large sensor apparently needs a large battery. I would expect a 100R to follow at $5K with no IBIS, maybe a year or 18 months later.
Edmund
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Hopefully, the GFX100MP camera will get a few updates before it's finally released. Has to be one of the strangest looking bodies I have seen in years. As a GFX user, I prefer the body style without a built in grip/battery pack.
Late 2019 will be interesting for Fuji.
Paul C
Just hope that the GFX 100S shown at Photokina was a prototype that was quickly thrown together to make a statement of intent. I cannot imagine that is what Fuji intends to sell. It looks like something that was designed by a third grader whose experience designing cameras was derived from his use of building blocks. Hey, let's make it taller by adding another block!
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You will be surprised how similar the final version will look.
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You will be surprised how similar the final version will look.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The pro Nikon and Canon cameras are very good to hold vertically. This is reflected in the Fuji design. I think Hassy users have complained about vertical holdability in the past :)
Edmund
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The pro Nikon and Canon cameras are very good to hold vertically. This is reflected in the Fuji design. I think Hassy users have complained about vertical holdability in the past :)
Edmund
Very cool design philosophy. It's sort of like designing a car so that it looks/works best when you drive it in reverse, because occasionally you drive the car in reverse.
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Very cool design philosophy. It's sort of like designing a car so that it looks/works best when you drive it in reverse, because occasionally you drive the car in reverse.
The booster-SLR design is intended to be used horizontally by default, but easily rotated. When covering the Paris fashion shows I was part of a crowd of photographers who shot hundreds of images every hour, always holding the camera vertical. Most had "pro" Nikon or Canon models with booster handle designs.
Nikon and Canon are decent at pro camera design - not stellar but decent. And there's a reason they've all adopted that strange shape, it allows the "booster" part to act as a vertical handle while containing hefty batteries that can move the AF motors faster, and incidentally keeps the warming batteries well away from the sensor. It's a halfway functional design, albeit not a pretty one. Halfway only because as soon as you want to look at top-plate lcd or twiddle a mode knob you need to rotate the camera back to landscape.
Designs can change. Old commercial airplanes had column yokes, by convention, but when Airbus moved to fly-by-wire they decluttered the cockpit and put in sidesticks. Windows PCs have mice, phones have touchscreens. It may be time to move away from the booster-SLR design, but until someone innovates properly it's still the best we've got. One possible innovation would be to have a square sensor, another would be an internal sensor rotation mechanism, both have been tried ;D
Edmund
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We are derailing this topic into Fuji body types, so let's stop, and get back O.T.
(but not till I've had my turn in saying that I much prefer the 50R body form (with better grip), and want 100Mp too! Yes I'll be ordering the IBIS GFX100 as soon as possible, despite my preferences. I also have no doubt that a GFR-100 will follow in due course)
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Back on topic:
Was out with my IQ4 today, and still suffering from the Beta firmware. SO much is missing, it's really ridiculous.
Working tethered on XF, couldn't find the power options (slow/fast charge from laptop USB-C) that were on the nicely evolved IQ3 firmware.
Anyone?
It's beyond me how Phase could try to change so much in one go, and end up with something that looks completely unchanged!
Basically feeling like I should hibernate for 3-5 months till firmware 2.0 comes out, and this thing is actually functioning like an IQ3.
In better news: Alpa has an IQ4 now, and are working hard on patching/hacking firmware that will work with their tech cams, especially the sync needed for FPS and Silex users.
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Back on topic:
Was out with my IQ4 today, and still suffering from the Beta firmware. SO much is missing, it's really ridiculous.
Working tethered on XF, couldn't find the power options (slow/fast charge from laptop USB-C) that were on the nicely evolved IQ3 firmware.
Anyone?
It's beyond me how Phase could try to change so much in one go, and end up with something that looks completely unchanged!
Basically feeling like I should hibernate for 3-5 months till firmware 2.0 comes out, and this thing is actually functioning like an IQ3.
In better news: Alpa has an IQ4 now, and are working hard on patching/hacking firmware that will work with their tech cams, especially the sync needed for FPS and Silex users.
Welcome to the reality of what happens when you order a $50,000 state of the art electronic device sight unseen and in advance. You are a beta tester. The only question is for how long.
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While I agree that it has quite adequate things lacking it also works great since the last firmware. I didn’t have many problems and I for one am actually using it and it’s making me money.
Sure the IQ3 does that as well, but what’s the fun in using a 3 year old back for a job.
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While I agree that it has quite adequate things lacking it also works great since the last firmware. I didn’t have many problems and I for one am actually using it and it’s making me money.
Sure the IQ3 does that as well, but what’s the fun in using a 3 year old back for a job.
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Same here. Using it daily for stuff that matters. There are issues that I hope get fixed soon. But for studio work, it's on the whole a noticeable improvement over my IQ3-100 and I'm quite happy to have upgraded early.
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Welcome to the reality of what happens when you order a $50,000 state of the art electronic device sight unseen and in advance. You are a beta tester. The only question is for how long.
That's harsh.
Phase have an upgrade path that has been pretty decent to regular customers, and... it always worked.
I've personally done:
P45+ to P65+,
P65+ to IQ180,
IQ180 to IQ3-100,
and all worked seamlessly out the box. Sure they added some extra features later (thank you!) but... it worked from Day 1.
it's just with
IQ3-100 to IQ4-150, that they seem to have stumbled.
It does work pretty darn well with the XF, so if that is your mainstay, then there is very little to gripe about. Enjoy!
Tech users however have been definitely overlooked, and that's a large group of Phase users, so it's very surprising.
I would not call this a disaster - the sensor and back are phenomenal advance. Phase One however needs to look hard at how it treats its partners (Alpa, Cambo, etc) and realize there are a significant group of users who simply can't use an XF, as it is not capable of what they need - maybe they work with tech movements or use stripped down lightweight hiking outfits like Alpa TC - but are loyal customers/ investors in the Phase One backs.
To switch out the back connectors and not tell your 'partners' is wrong, to not give them sufficient heads up with pin specifications and suppliers of new plugs, so they can make cabling/ adapters well in advance, is wrong, to not have sync protocols for tech users from firmware 1.0, is wrong.
That's it. I think these issue will be resolved in a week or two, and every step after will be a delight as they unpack the incredible capabilities of this sensor.
I've already found the much faster ES sweep, despite the extra 50Mp, means I can shoot some movement I couldn't before, with IQ3.
Onwards!
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How many IQ backs does Phase sell in a year? A few hundred? A thousand at most? This probably really limits their selection of components. It sounds like the battery itself is not bad - people have been putting better and better cells in that same physical form factor (they started out at 1900 mAh 15 years ago, and are now at 3400 in the same package). Because it's an old design, it doesn't have the "smart" sensing circuits that allow Sony batteries or Mac laptops (for example) to report super-accurate remaining power figures.
Probably worse than the battery is the power to performance ratio of the electronics. You can't just call up Tim Cook at Apple and say "I'd like to buy 750 A12 processors, and oh, can I have iPhone X screens to go with them?". They don't sell those parts. Even commodity Android smartphone components are probably not available in the small quantities Phase needs, at least if you want anything modern, and especially if you need the board in an odd shape to fit in a back. Yes, a Phase back running the latest iPhone processor would be faster and much more power-efficient than whatever they're using (nobody's taken one apart, but one logical possibility is a tablet-spec ARM processor from 2-3 years ago or more - from Qualcomm, Samsung or someone else). It has to be an off-the-shelf processor that either Phase themselves or some custom shop is putting on odd-shaped boards - and processors take a while to trickle down from the state of the art that goes in high-end smartphones to what you can buy a few hundred of from a catalog.
Same with screens - they don't say much about it, except that it's an LCD (they'd love to use an OLED, but you can't buy those in small quantities). It's almost certainly whatever they can buy in a smallish size (there's no room for even a small phone screen), in small quantities. Even Nikon (who makes 20,000 Z-series cameras per month) can only get rear displays that are as good as a 3 year old phone. Phase is probably a generation farther back in the queue (and can't get a custom size - they have to use the largest standard size that fits).
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That's harsh.
Phase have an upgrade path that has been pretty decent to regular customers, and... it always worked.
I've personally done:
P45+ to P65+,
P65+ to IQ180,
IQ180 to IQ3-100,
and all worked seamlessly out the box. Sure they added some extra features later (thank you!) but... it worked from Day 1.
it's just with
IQ3-100 to IQ4-150, that they seem to have stumbled.
It doesn't take much to understand that P1 simply had to be the first with the 150mp sensor available in a product.
Since they have completely lost the 33x44mm sensor market to Hasselblad and Fuji (to the extend that they stopped selling backs with these), their survival depends on being the top player with the 150mp sensor.
It seems they made a call that rushing an announcement ahead of Hasselblad was the way to go.
Having suffered for nearly a year of a partially functioning firmware on the H6D-100c, I can completely relate to the complains.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It doesn't take much to understand that P1 simply had to be the first with the 150mp sensor available in a product.
Since they have completely lost the 33x44mm sensor market to Hasselblad and Fuji (to the extend that they stopped selling backs with these), their survival depends on being the top player with the 150mp sensor.
It seems they made a call that rushing an announcement ahead of Hasselblad was the way to go.
Having suffered for nearly a year of a partially functioning firmware on the H6D-100c, I can completely relate to the complains.
Cheers,
Bernard
Reminds me of a Japanese story, about suffering the hardware: A young Samurai in a rush to get ahead went to a Master Swordsmith and asked him to forge the sharpest blade ever made. But during his first engagement the shiny new Katana broke in two, and shortly thereafter.the young Samurai himself was also bisected. Moral of the story: They who want to live on the bleeding edge of untested tech should remember that the novel sharp blade may often be brittle.
Edmund
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How many IQ backs does Phase sell in a year? A few hundred? A thousand at most?
Significantly more.
As to the rest of your speculation...
- An IQ4 has roughly the same computing power as an iPad Pro
- The screen on the back is not OLED, but it works very well for its intended purpose: quick evaluation of exposure, focus, and composition. Like with the IQ3 the IQ4 has built in WiFi so the user can use a phone (with some fancy new screen if desired) for live view, image review, rating etc. Note that this works today for the IQ3 but is still pending on the IQ4 and will come via a free firmware update.
- It’s true the batteries used in the IQ4 don’t have any fancy electronics embedded in them, but the difference there is pretty small in terms of performance. This also means that the Official Phase One battery (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/product/phase-one-digital-back-battery-3400-mah/) is only $70, which is a pittance compared to the batteries for some other high-end cameras.
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Significantly more.
As to the rest of your speculation...
- An IQ4 has roughly the same computing power as an iPad Pro
- The screen on the back is not OLED, but it works very well for its intended purpose: quick evaluation of exposure, focus, and composition. Like with the IQ3 the IQ4 has built in WiFi so the user can use a phone (with some fancy new screen if desired) for live view, image review, rating etc. Note that this works today for the IQ3 but is still pending on the IQ4 and will come via a free firmware update.
- It’s true the batteries used in the IQ4 don’t have any fancy electronics embedded in them, but the difference there is pretty small in terms of performance. This also means that the Official Phase One battery (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/product/phase-one-digital-back-battery-3400-mah/) is only $70, which is a pittance compared to the batteries for some other high-end cameras.
Although the Phase batteries are well priced, I think I detect room here for a capacious third-part battery module :)
Edmund
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It would be hard to put a more capacious battery in the same slot (and the battery is internal). Whoever makes the batteries for Phase is using high-performance cells. The dimensions of the battery make it very likely that it's essentially two 18650 cells in parallel, and the highest capacity 18650 cells around are only 3600 mAh (many are in the low 2000s). 3400 mAh cells are very close to the best available...
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Great perspectives on this post. I have a little over a month under my belt with the IQ4 151 (also have IQ3 100 to compare for benchmark).
My first impressions are here:
www.jefflubeck.net.
I have moved on to testing with my Technical Camera (Cambo) and lens kit (Rodenstock, Schneider). Given lack of device specific cables, I am using Electronic Shutter. I have a day under my belt and am rather blown away by some of the results. I did not expect the color accuracy, sharpness and depth of field to be so superb using ES.