Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: The View on September 22, 2016, 12:41:34 am
-
I'm going to upgrade to medium format around the end of the year (this year would be better for tax purposes, but I'm not going to rush)
I am most likely going to buy a used camera.
I shoot fashion and landscape and have had a few fine art exhibitions and want to greatly expand this section. My shooting style is about heightening the power of the eye, showing great detail and light. I also do a lot of compositing.
I shoot almost exclusively on location.
Camera:
Which one do you recommend. I thought the Hasselblad H5D would be great with its True Focus II. What about the H4D by comparison (there are more around and at better prices). Is the H3Dii already too old to be a good choice? (I heard Hasselblad no longer services them - where would you get this camera serviced then?)
Back:
I would like to get a bigger than 33x44mm sensor, e.g. the size that's in the P45+ and Hasselblad H5D-50 (CCD)
a. Phase One: I saw that the Phase One backs newer than the P45+ are too expensive -
b. Hasselblad back - much easier to get. question: How different is the 50 MP back of the H4D and the 50 MP back on the H5D?
c. Leaf (almost no information here - are they similar to Phase One backs, and if yes, in which way similar (they are not as expensive I saw)
How different are those older backs from the newer ones. I saw about 1 to 1,5 f-stops of dynamic range. But in color information and detail, how would a P45+ do in comparison to what's on a H4D or H5D?
Key is that I buy a camera and back that I will want to use for years and gives me satisfaction in colors depth and detail.
ISO is not very important. Even on my Canon 5Diii (soon up for sale) I rarely go over 800. On fashion shoots NEVER over 800. I usually try to stay at 100 as long as possible, and try to go no higher than 400.
Hasselblad X1D: when I first heard I thought this would be the absolute camera that could do everything (the perfect animal that could grow wool, lay eggs, give milk, and have great meat).
But then... the electronic viewfinder... if it has a lag it's the end for me. If it's cramped or strains the eye... I have to see one first-hand first.
My current state of emotion (not much backed up by facts)
1. Likely a full size Hasselblad because I want a good viewfinder for composition. Hasselblad because it's a great camera and its autofocus is good. I am also rather a tripod user for long term exposure instead of cranking up the ISO (which I never find attractive even in cameras that are good at it)
2. Back: key is great detail (showing light great!) and GREAT COLOR INFORMATION in the file. I do not want to buy an older model for price reasons and then be disappointed. So I would really appreciate some input in regard to this. I consider all three: key question is: how old can a back be and still produce high end results?
Thanks!
-
I can't say much about the older Hasselblads. Sorry for that :)
But I've started with Mamiya and Leaf as my first digital medium format kit.
The backs a great - they are similar to the Phase-Backs and produce the same images (Credo 40 vs. IQ140). But they lack a few functions compared to the Phase One IQ1-3 Series, like:
- WiFi
- Focus mask
- Sensor Plus (higher ISO with smaller resolution)
- Power Sharing for the new XF Body
I've always looked at the Leaf-Backs as Phase One IQ-Lights ;)
They are great, especially the Credo 60 and 80, and there is also a 50 (CMOS) Chip.
Leaf & Mamiya was bought by Phase One and the Credo backs are now a few years old. So keep that in mind.
I don't know if Leaf will create new backs in the future...
key question is: how old can a back be and still produce high end results?
I know a lot of Photographers who are using Phase One P-Backs, Leaf Aputs Backs and a couple with Hasselblad H3D's.
If you find a good one which is in great shape - I would go for it, even if it's a few years old.
Hope this helps a little bit ;)
-
Hi,
I have used a P45+ for three years but with the Hasselblad V-system.
Regarding the back, I would say that it delivers quite OK image quality, even today. A modern CMOS sensor can pull a lot of detail out of the darks, here lays the advantage of CMOS.
Regarding viewfinder and focusing, modern CMOS allows magnified live view, like instant 10X or so magnification. That is a great advantage in manual focus.
I have never touched Hasselblad H, but what I read is that AF-works well and that True Focus works well.
I would not discount EVF. The EVF lag is to some part at myth. Sure, the EVF lags optical view significantly and it matters when tracking birds in irregular flight, for instance. But, release lag can be very short with EVF, if used with Electronic First Shutter Curtain. Without EFSC the shutter needs to close before exposure. BTW, the same applies to a DSLR.
I don't think te X1D has EFSC, but I think they have a feature I would call "global reset", that combined with the leaf shutter can achieve 1/2000 second with sync. That should give response time on the order of a few ms. Much faster than any DSLR. If they would have a decent electrical cable release…
EVF-s have low resolution so you really need magnified view for manual focusing, in my humble opinion.
In dark conditions an EVF gives really bright viewing. Outdoors EVF does not really shine and needs a good eyecup to keep the sun light out of ones eyes.
In my view, the Fuji GFX presented at Photokina this week may be the best low end MFD solution. But, the X1D is probably a very good camera, too. If you need leaf shutter, the X1D may the way to go.
The P45+ has a Kodak sensor and Kodak sensors have a colour rendition of their own. Some folks like it some don't. Colour may be more about colour profiles than sensors, albeit I think that one of the issues with the P45+ may be a bit weak IR-filtering. Flowers and foliage often have very high IR-content and that may cause some issues when combined with weak IR filter.
Hasselblad is known to have carefully made profiles with the aim to have good match between different sensors.
Here is a bunch of P45+ shots: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Other/Technical/P45/
Here are a lot of other images, mostly with raw files attached:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/
Best regards
Erik
I'm going to upgrade to medium format around the end of the year (this year would be better for tax purposes, but I'm not going to rush)
I am most likely going to buy a used camera.
I shoot fashion and landscape and have had a few fine art exhibitions and want to greatly expand this section. My shooting style is about heightening the power of the eye, showing great detail and light. I also do a lot of compositing.
I shoot almost exclusively on location.
Camera:
Which one do you recommend. I thought the Hasselblad H5D would be great with its True Focus II. What about the H4D by comparison (there are more around and at better prices). Is the H3Dii already too old to be a good choice? (I heard Hasselblad no longer services them - where would you get this camera serviced then?)
Back:
I would like to get a bigger than 33x44mm sensor, e.g. the size that's in the P45+ and Hasselblad H5D-50 (CCD)
a. Phase One: I saw that the Phase One backs newer than the P45+ are too expensive -
b. Hasselblad back - much easier to get. question: How different is the 50 MP back of the H4D and the 50 MP back on the H5D?
c. Leaf (almost no information here - are they similar to Phase One backs, and if yes, in which way similar (they are not as expensive I saw)
How different are those older backs from the newer ones. I saw about 1 to 1,5 f-stops of dynamic range. But in color information and detail, how would a P45+ do in comparison to what's on a H4D or H5D?
Key is that I buy a camera and back that I will want to use for years and gives me satisfaction in colors depth and detail.
ISO is not very important. Even on my Canon 5Diii (soon up for sale) I rarely go over 800. On fashion shoots NEVER over 800. I usually try to stay at 100 as long as possible, and try to go no higher than 400.
Hasselblad X1D: when I first heard I thought this would be the absolute camera that could do everything (the perfect animal that could grow wool, lay eggs, give milk, and have great meat).
But then... the electronic viewfinder... if it has a lag it's the end for me. If it's cramped or strains the eye... I have to see one first-hand first.
My current state of emotion (not much backed up by facts)
1. Likely a full size Hasselblad because I want a good viewfinder for composition. Hasselblad because it's a great camera and its autofocus is good. I am also rather a tripod user for long term exposure instead of cranking up the ISO (which I never find attractive even in cameras that are good at it)
2. Back: key is great detail (showing light great!) and GREAT COLOR INFORMATION in the file. I do not want to buy an older model for price reasons and then be disappointed. So I would really appreciate some input in regard to this. I consider all three: key question is: how old can a back be and still produce high end results?
Thanks!
-
Welcome,
Let's start with where you are located. Generally speaking, you should put these cameras in your hands before making a decision. The fit, function and how they work really comes down to personal decisions.
As a H4D-50 shooter, I can tell you that ISO200 is as far as I ever go with something. Any higher and you'll have noise issues, but that's just CCD's all around. PhaseOne has Sensor+ mode that cuts your resolution in 1/4 but performs better at higher ISOs.
Color is huge, and how Hasselblad and Phase deal with it is different. You really need to get files and work with them.
The differences between the H4 and H5 lineups for Hasselblad is mostly in the body - the fit and finish is better, but things like the screen on the back are the same.
Will you be parting with all your Canon gear, or just the one body? About the only other thing I would consider looking at is lens selection, making sure you'll have the focal length you want, wide and super telephoto are areas that 35mm gear has more options. Don't worry about the 33x44 v 36x48 sensor size difference - the view finder is just a bright.
I think the best thing for you to see is the files from a -50 and a -50c and see which one responds to your editing best.
-
I started with several Mamiyas and finished up with a Mamiya 645AFD and then agonised over a back. I sold all that picked up a Hasselblad H1 second hand with a Phase back. Much better camera. The back was good also but ate batteries and you needed separate batteries. I then upgraded to an H2 and the same back before getting an H3DII-31. This was a far better combination than the Phase back. I am firmly in the integrated Hasselblad camp. Mixed manufacturers between back and camera is a pain. I now have the H3DII-39 which has a larger sensor and ISO 50, which is usually what I use.
Outside low ISO and high shutter speed allows smaller flash and bigger aperture in bright sun.
I would love to get the H4 or H5 or better for True Focus.
The Phocus software is awesome as a raw converter and has built in colour correction.
-
Thank you for your replies!
It looks to me that I will have to try out before I buy - which may be difficult as you can't rent older backs.
Just from what I read about it likely wouldn't work.
Joe, you are right: I have to see which back would give me the best files for the way I work.
In regard to lens selection, that I will also research. I will also have to know if I should get a CCD of a larger size or the newer CMOS - test shoot both and check the files.
Where would I be able to rent older backs, if at all?
-
Who said you can't rent older backs? We rent non current backs.
Let us know where you are located and board member from that country/area can let you know who rents in your area.
Thank you for your replies!
It looks to me that I will have to try out before I buy - which may be difficult as you can't rent older backs.
Just from what I read about it likely wouldn't work.
Joe, you are right: I have to see which back would give me the best files for the way I work.
In regard to lens selection, that I will also research. I will also have to know if I should get a CCD of a larger size or the newer CMOS - test shoot both and check the files.
Where would I be able to rent older backs, if at all?
-
Another thing to think about is software processing. Phase One offers Capture One which makes all the files sing; likewise Hassy has their own software Phocus which in turn works well on their files. I have no experience with Phocus however I've been using C1 for many years and like it. Then again there's the need to evaluate your computing needs as medium format files tend to be larger. I now shoot 80-megapixels landscape and in some instances my end results will exceed 3-GB.
Regarding new vs old backs - I've owned 5-backs over the years and only one (the very first) has been brand new. All the rest have been used and have never given me an issue.
Find a good/great dealer that you trust and will be there whenever you need them.
Don
-
Specs and comparison will matter very little until you get one of these beasts in your hands and try it out in an actual scenario typical of what you will be doing. They are VERY different than other cameras.
The H line of cameras are pretty much dinosaurs. And they feel like it. The H6 might be different... havent used it yet. Phase one/Mamiya was no better, only with a smaller viewfinder. (with the exception of the XF)
If you don't need a separate back (for going to a tech cam) ... you might opt for the X1D or the Fuji. Or potentially a used Leica S. In terms of the 44mm sensors, I really enjoyed using the S. It actually feels like it gets out of the way. That was the first time a medium format camera "got out of my way" when shooting.
In my opinion the classic medium format modular cameras are studio workhorses. I do not enjoy using them on location nearly as much as other gear. Actually...let me rephrase...I do not enjoy them as much in situations where I do not have full control over lights, computers, and the subject.
In terms of the CCD versus CMOS...the CCD backs have lovely look to them. I have always preferred that. In reality, the difference won't make a difference in the long run. In fact, the modern CMOS has a lot more advantage including ISO.
I really stress though, you need to get your hands on some of this gear to try before any decisions are made. It would be well worth it, especially at this level of "investment." (totally not an investment!)
-
Another thing to think about is software processing. Phase One offers Capture One which makes all the files sing; likewise Hassy has their own software Phocus which in turn works well on their files. I have no experience with Phocus however I've been using C1 for many years and like it. Then again there's the need to evaluate your computing needs as medium format files tend to be larger. I now shoot 80-megapixels landscape and in some instances my end results will exceed 3-GB.
Regarding new vs old backs - I've owned 5-backs over the years and only one (the very first) has been brand new. All the rest have been used and have never given me an issue.
Find a good/great dealer that you trust and will be there whenever you need them.
Don
Thanks, Don
I will definitely rent before I buy.
Computer-wise, I'm on a MacBook Pro retina with a four-core processor and 16 Gb of RAM. I have created images consisting of up to 50 files and where the file size regularly goes over 3 GB and it worked on this computer.
-
Who said you can't rent older backs? We rent non current backs.
Let us know where you are located and board member from that country/area can let you know who rents in your area.
I'm in the Los Angeles area, Doug.
-
Specs and comparison will matter very little until you get one of these beasts in your hands and try it out in an actual scenario typical of what you will be doing. They are VERY different than other cameras.
The H line of cameras are pretty much dinosaurs. And they feel like it. The H6 might be different... havent used it yet. Phase one/Mamiya was no better, only with a smaller viewfinder. (with the exception of the XF)
If you don't need a separate back (for going to a tech cam) ... you might opt for the X1D or the Fuji. Or potentially a used Leica S. In terms of the 44mm sensors, I really enjoyed using the S. It actually feels like it gets out of the way. That was the first time a medium format camera "got out of my way" when shooting.
In my opinion the classic medium format modular cameras are studio workhorses. I do not enjoy using them on location nearly as much as other gear. Actually...let me rephrase...I do not enjoy them as much in situations where I do not have full control over lights, computers, and the subject.
In terms of the CCD versus CMOS...the CCD backs have lovely look to them. I have always preferred that. In reality, the difference won't make a difference in the long run. In fact, the modern CMOS has a lot more advantage including ISO.
I really stress though, you need to get your hands on some of this gear to try before any decisions are made. It would be well worth it, especially at this level of "investment." (totally not an investment!)
Yes, I have to see all this for the kind of work I do.
I was very excited when I read about the X1D - until I read about the EV viewfinder and that it is worse than the Leica EV.
But I definitely will take a look at it if the this EV is so middling as it appears.
The Fuji has exchangeable viewfinders - great idea. And it has an updated or altered sensor, which we need to know more about on what the difference is to a regular 33x44. The downside of the Fuji is that it has a focal plane shutter and you are bound to 1/125 of a second.
But then, I just read that they are working on a way to use leaf shutter lenses on this camera.
I just wonder why we can't get an optical viewfinder like on the old rangefinder cameras like the Plaubel Makina, a medium format rangefinder Wim Wenders too amazing images of the west with when he was researching and location scouting for "Paris, Texas".
Maybe an add-on for the Fuji, stuck on top (and we can always deal with the parallax problem, but at least we can see what we are shooting)
-
My suggestion would be to wait until you can afford the 54x40 CMOS if you don't like the 44x33 CMOS.
You could go for a CCD which is larger than 44x33, but you may regret it if you haven't tested it thoroughly and made side-by-side comparison against your 35mm format gear.
Compared against CMOS: CCD has significantly worse dynamic range in long exposure; CCD cannot disable darkframe NR for long exposure; CCD has tiling issues; CCD doesn't have true live view.
If you've been into the electronic world for years then it shouldn't be hard to understand that it's generally safer to buy into the newer technology. Every mainstream manufacturer is now focused more on CMOS.
-
I'm in the Los Angeles area, Doug.
We have an office/demo-studio in Culver City (LA area)
Phase One LA - Digital Transitions (https://digitaltransitions.com/contact-us/)
Talk to Ken or Rudy. They'd be glad to help you get hands on or do whatever testing you'd like.
-
LA makes this all easy, DT can take care of you on the Phase side and Hassy has local representation. Plus a healthy market for one off rentals.
Only thing I'd highly recommend is sticking to the IQ series or Credo, the XF is SOOOO much nicer to work with over the DF/DF+.
When you look at lenses, there are some things to consider. The 1/800th shutter speed is on all Hasselblad lenses, but with their new orange square shutters, we get 1/1000th on H1-H5 bodies, and 1/2000th on the H6 bodies. In the Phase world, you'll have 1/800th with leaf lenses and up to 1/1600th with certain lenses when combined with wired sync or Profoto AIR (transmitter builtin to the XF, in the grip with the DF+). Upside to the Phase body is you have a 1/4000th focal plane shutter. Depending on your interest level, taking the Phase backs off and using them on other cameras is fun, so shooting a RZ67 or view camera setup ls a lot cleaner.
You can also match a Phase back to a Hasselblad body, to gain CaptureOne compatibility but lose automatic lens profiling. Oddball things like the Hasselblad HTS turns their 24mm to 100mm lenses into tilt-shift (with a 1.5x tele-converter). If you want to shoot waist level, the XF has it's light meter in the body, not the eye piece like Hasselblad.
In short, there is no wrong decisions, just personal decisions that make your camera selection a tool for you. A good dealer will help you down this path.
-
My suggestion would be to wait until you can afford the 54x40 CMOS if you don't like the 44x33 CMOS.
You could go for a CCD which is larger than 44x33, but you may regret it if you haven't tested it thoroughly and made side-by-side comparison against your 35mm format gear.
Compared against CMOS: CCD has significantly worse dynamic range in long exposure; CCD cannot disable darkframe NR for long exposure; CCD has tiling issues; CCD doesn't have true live view.
If you've been into the electronic world for years then it shouldn't be hard to understand that it's generally safer to buy into the newer technology. Every mainstream manufacturer is now focused more on CMOS.
Thank you, Yunli, for these great comments.
While I don't do long exposure now - you never now.
My key interest is great detail. I aim to provide a sensual perception with my images that is stronger than what the eyes see with a focus on detail and light.
The larger sensor is only being found on the Hasselblad 100c as far as I know, which retails at 36 000$.
You are also echoing my concern that a 44x33mm sensor might not be MF enough (which is why I was always interested in the larger sensors)
I can live without live view (never used it except for video shooting) - I really like a great, optical viewfinder.
-
We have an office/demo-studio in Culver City (LA area)
Phase One LA - Digital Transitions (https://digitaltransitions.com/contact-us/)
Talk to Ken or Rudy. They'd be glad to help you get hands on or do whatever testing you'd like.
Thank you, Doug, I will.
-
Trying out these cameras is key if you intend to shoot them handheld.
I personally find the H6D a better match for my hand and eye.
True focus is also great, I would consider the XF to be mostly a manual focus camera unless you like you subjects dead centred (leaving aside any possible issue with the XF AF, I find these reports surprising). This may not be an issue if you have eyes still performing well.
Finally, the fact that the camera is twice cheaper in my geo is also a major factor. I can buy a H6D-100c and a car for the price of an XF + IQ3-100 in Tokyo.
Now, if you intend to use your back on a tech camera, then P1 may be the better option at the moment.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
LA makes this all easy, DT can take care of you on the Phase side and Hassy has local representation. Plus a healthy market for one off rentals.
Only thing I'd highly recommend is sticking to the IQ series or Credo, the XF is SOOOO much nicer to work with over the DF/DF+.
When you look at lenses, there are some things to consider. The 1/800th shutter speed is on all Hasselblad lenses, but with their new orange square shutters, we get 1/1000th on H1-H5 bodies, and 1/2000th on the H6 bodies. In the Phase world, you'll have 1/800th with leaf lenses and up to 1/1600th with certain lenses when combined with wired sync or Profoto AIR (transmitter builtin to the XF, in the grip with the DF+). Upside to the Phase body is you have a 1/4000th focal plane shutter. Depending on your interest level, taking the Phase backs off and using them on other cameras is fun, so shooting a RZ67 or view camera setup ls a lot cleaner.
You can also match a Phase back to a Hasselblad body, to gain CaptureOne compatibility but lose automatic lens profiling. Oddball things like the Hasselblad HTS turns their 24mm to 100mm lenses into tilt-shift (with a 1.5x tele-converter). If you want to shoot waist level, the XF has it's light meter in the body, not the eye piece like Hasselblad.
In short, there is no wrong decisions, just personal decisions that make your camera selection a tool for you. A good dealer will help you down this path.
Thanks, Joe, for pointing out all those options!
One thing: I still have those old Profoto 7b battery powered generators. With a Canon I used Canon Pocketwizards. How would I trigger the flashes from a Hasselblad - the packs don't have anything fancy like Profoto Air.
Do Pocketwizards - the classic one - work with Hasselblad and would I get the fast sync times of the leaf shutter lenses?
-
Trying out these cameras is key if you intend to shoot them handheld.
I personally find the H6D a better match for my hand and eye.
True focus is also great, I would consider the XF to be mostly a manual focus camera unless you like you subjects dead centered. This may not be an issue if you have eyes still performing well.
Finally, the fact that the camera is twice cheaper in my geo is also a major factor.
Now, if you intend to use your back on a tech camera, then P1 may be the better option at the moment.
Cheers,
Bernard
The XF is an insanely beautiful camera, almost in Bauhaus style design. But I have heard that honeycomb autofocus doesn't work too well.
I also heard that Truefocus really works well.
I'm in a way heavily leaning towards Hasselblad. Many years ago, my equipment was stolen on my way to Moscow (from where I took the Transsib to Beijing) Suddenly I had no gear. You couldn't, at that time, just go an buy a camera in Moscow. So I went on the black market and bought a Kiev, a Russian Hasselblad copy. It served me well on my trips through China, Japan, and Malaysia - but you couldn't get the lens off. It was way heavier than the Hasselblad and a mirror slap like a Kalaschnikov - but I still loved the solid shooting experience.
But I keep my mind open.
What would you say is the key difference of Leaf, Phase One, and Hasselblad backs?
-
The XF is an insanely beautiful camera, almost in Bauhaus style design. But I have heard that honeycomb autofocus doesn't work too well.
I also heard that Truefocus really works well.
I'm in a way heavily leaning towards Hasselblad. Many years ago, my equipment was stolen on my way to Moscow (from where I took the Transsib to Beijing) Suddenly I had no gear. You couldn't, at that time, just go an buy a camera in Moscow. So I went on the black market and bought a Kiev, a Russian Hasselblad copy. It served me well on my trips through China, Japan, and Malaysia - but you couldn't get the lens off. It was way heavier than the Hasselblad and a mirror slap like a Kalaschnikov - but I still loved the solid shooting experience.
But I keep my mind open.
What would you say is the key difference of Leaf, Phase One, and Hasselblad backs?
If you take the name brand off I feel the XF has a lot in common with the intangible elements of the hasselblad 500 series.
I'd strongly strongly suggest against *reading* about AF performance. Of all attributes of a camera the hand-feel and AF are the most personal and subjective. Especially since you live in a city where putting your hands on an XF to evaluate its AF yourself.
-
Thanks, Joe, for pointing out all those options!
One thing: I still have those old Profoto 7b battery powered generators. With a Canon I used Canon Pocketwizards. How would I trigger the flashes from a Hasselblad - the packs don't have anything fancy like Profoto Air.
Do Pocketwizards - the classic one - work with Hasselblad and would I get the fast sync times of the leaf shutter lenses?
Both cameras can trigger off the hotshoe or the sync port. I think that PocketWizards are good to about 1/400th or 1/500th and then you may have timing issues. A new set of triggers may fix this, but I'd test with a cable sync first. Check out https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/
As Doug says, you really need to try out the AF on the XF in person. Also, the new IQ1-100mp is at the same $33k price point, but there are a lot of 60mp & 80mp CCD backs out there, and if your workflow and shooting style match up, it's a good thing to consider, and they're the larger chips (same size as the 100mp).
I think the big question left is what about MF is driving this decision? Mind you, I'm a pixel addict and can't get enough, and that's what drove me to my Hass (cheapest I could find at the time). There are used combo's possible on both product lines to get you a back, body and lens or two for under $10k. That may be enough for you, or you may be better putting $15-20k down and going with a higher mp, plus a few features.
-
If you take the name brand off I feel the XF has a lot in common with the intangible elements of the hasselblad 500 series.
I'd strongly strongly suggest against *reading* about AF performance. Of all attributes of a camera the hand-feel and AF are the most personal and subjective. Especially since you live in a city where putting your hands on an XF to evaluate its AF yourself.
Yes, many photographers put out test reports and they may have pilot errors during flight with a camera.
-
Both cameras can trigger off the hotshoe or the sync port. I think that PocketWizards are good to about 1/400th or 1/500th and then you may have timing issues. A new set of triggers may fix this, but I'd test with a cable sync first. Check out https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/
As Doug says, you really need to try out the AF on the XF in person. Also, the new IQ1-100mp is at the same $33k price point, but there are a lot of 60mp & 80mp CCD backs out there, and if your workflow and shooting style match up, it's a good thing to consider, and they're the larger chips (same size as the 100mp).
I think the big question left is what about MF is driving this decision? Mind you, I'm a pixel addict and can't get enough, and that's what drove me to my Hass (cheapest I could find at the time). There are used combo's possible on both product lines to get you a back, body and lens or two for under $10k. That may be enough for you, or you may be better putting $15-20k down and going with a higher mp, plus a few features.
Looks like the Pocketwizard Plus III set to fast can achieve the high sync times.
I care about light quality and sharp detail - and I just heard from a friend who's a very busy commercial photographer - he shoots with a H2 and a P45.
If he can serve his expensive clients with an older back, I will be fine as well.
The only thing is that the older backs/Hasselblads have no dust sealing. And I love to shoot wilderness. I do things like walk out into the desert and stay there, shooting, for three, four days. Would the dust cause a problem there let's say with an H4d and a P45+ as an example? (I heard from a guy who took his H3Dii up and down the Amazon river... with all that humidity!)
-
In terms of nature etc....have you considered the pentax 645? Price with lenses isn't too bad. And it has the articulating screen. Great if you get down load or do odd perspectives for nature shots.
Getting down to the viewfinder at ground level of a classic medium format that is not a 500cm is painful. Luckily the hassy can pop its viewfinder off...but I don't like doing this out in the field. Maybe a thought to consider. A lot of my nature work is done at low angles.
-
Hi, decision is yours but i suggest don't ditch your current setup before you get used to a new one and maybe they can compliment each other and one not necessarily "better then the other one", there are good points above, to me in terms of brand h vs p is like bron vs pf, each one is good, but h and pf have big "second hand market" which is key for me for example, you can get in good condition h3dii-31(i used to use this one before upgrade) for around 3k, or h4d31 for around 4k or newer system from hasselblad cpo program, phocus sowtware is good for processing but adobe camera raw is also good when properly profiled...
-
Hi, decision is yours but i suggest don't ditch your current setup before you get used to a new one and maybe they can compliment each other and one not necessarily "better then the other one", there are good points above, to me in terms of brand h vs p is like bron vs pf, each one is good, but h and pf have big "second hand market" which is key for me for example, you can get in good condition h3dii-31(i used to use this one before upgrade) for around 3k, or h4d31 for around 4k or newer system from hasselblad cpo program, phocus sowtware is good for processing but adobe camera raw is also good when properly profiled...
Where would you preferably buy a second (or third, fourth) hand Hasselblad or Hasselblad with Phase One back?
Also: The H3Dii - is it true there is no dust sealing? What do you do on location? I almost exclusively shoot on location, very little studio.
-
In terms of nature etc....have you considered the pentax 645? Price with lenses isn't too bad. And it has the articulating screen. Great if you get down load or do odd perspectives for nature shots.
Getting down to the viewfinder at ground level of a classic medium format that is not a 500cm is painful. Luckily the hassy can pop its viewfinder off...but I don't like doing this out in the field. Maybe a thought to consider. A lot of my nature work is done at low angles.
I ruled out the Pentax because of 1. very small and not very good lens lineup 2. No leaf shutter lenses - flash sync time 1/125th
Getting into MF I want to use really great lenses.
-
Where would you preferably buy a second (or third, fourth) hand Hasselblad or Hasselblad with Phase One back?
Also: The H3Dii - is it true there is no dust sealing? What do you do on location? I almost exclusively shoot on location, very little studio.
You use a rain cover?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
You use a rain cover?
Cheers,
Bernard
rain cover = dust cover.
I took a look and there doesn't seem to exist anything closely fitting (like those old leather pouches for very old cameras) - only quite unhandy plastic tent style covers that would be in the way.
The best would be some kind of tight fitting and made sure measure cover that seals off dust and humidity.
-
Making one of these isn't that hard, is it?
I would not worry too much about this aspect unless you shoot in the cold and are facing potential condensation problems.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Don't discount the Pentax off hand - they have glass no one else even comes close to. For starters, their AW designation means you're set for shooting in any condition, without a cover. They also have IS/VR in the 28-45 and 90mm Macro. One thing that you may not know is the Priolite and other 'long duration' strobes actually will hot sync fine all the way to 1/4000th. Finally, there are Pentax 645 A LS lenses, so if you're fine with manual focus (because you can live focus and have focus peaking) you can sync at 1/500th.
The X1D will speak Nikon TTL, but the 645z actually will do full TTL with remote speedlights.
I've shoot the 645Z in rain and snow, no issues what so ever.
I'll toss this out here - the current CPO from Hasselblad - http://hasselbladbron.com/cpo.pdf
In naming, you should know that the H4x or H5x are the bodies you'd want to use with either film or a PhaseOne back. The H4D is specific to Hasselblad backs.
-
Looking around I found a Hasselblad H2 with a Phase One P45+ at a good price.
But the Hasseblad has 80 000 actuations, and the back 100 000.
Would you still buy such a much-used unit?
-
Making one of these isn't that hard, is it?
I would not worry too much about this aspect unless you shoot in the cold and are facing potential condensation problems.
Cheers,
Bernard
And one could still put electrical tape on the joint line of back and camera which should seal it off perfectly against the flying sand in the desert.
-
As there is a major change in the digital market happening these later years. My opinion is for you to wait so that the picture is complete, or get something simple and cheap that you won't regret in the future.
-
As there is a major change in the digital market happening these later years.
Can you think of a time in the last two decades when this wasn't true?
-
Looking around I found a Hasselblad H2 with a Phase One P45+ at a good price.
But the Hasseblad has 80 000 actuations, and the back 100 000.
Would you still buy such a much-used unit?
Quantify what you mean by a good price. The back doesn't really care about the number of shots, while the body will, and if there's an issue, you'd most likely be replacing it. I'd most likely compare the combo to the price of a H4D-50 as the H1/H2 bodies don't have TrueFocus. The reason folks would do a Phase+Hasselblad combo revolve around needing CaptureOne support or just not liking the 645DF/DF+ bodies.
Have you confirmed that you'll get the color and files you're looking for? What lenses are you looking at, and what else will you need to get shooting?
Tape around the gap between the back and body is only one of the entry points i'd worry about - the lens mount and the eye piece mount both offer easy access to dust & grime.
Any time you purchase private party, make sure you have a plan if there is an issue with the gear.
-
Can you think of a time in the last two decades when this wasn't true?
It wasn't as long as the CCD backs lasted... Between a P25+ and a P65+ there is nothing much other than resolution (which IMO is the least important factor to consider).
-
I thought the Hasselblad H5D would be great with its True Focus II. What about the H4D by comparison (there are more around and at better prices). Is the H3Dii already too old to be a good choice? (I heard Hasselblad no longer services them - where would you get this camera serviced then?)
There is little difference between the H3Dii-50, H4D-50 and H5D-50, basically the H5D-50 is faster and the H3Dii-50 may miss focus a few times. Nothing really essential. The H3Dii can still be serviced, BTW. You are confusing with the original H3D (and even that camera can be serviced in many cases).
If I were you, I'll try to get a H4D-50. They still work very well and if you don't like it, you will be able to sell the camera without losing too much money.
Disclaimer: I am using an H4D-50 myself. I don't feel the need to upgrade.
-
Can you think of a time in the last two decades when this wasn't true?
What is happening now with mirrorless is a major transformation though, probably only second in scale to the switch from film to digital.
I would argue that this is in fact the first major transformation in the past 20 years.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
There is little difference between the H3Dii-50, H4D-50 and H5D-50, basically the H5D-50 is faster and the H3Dii-50 may miss focus a few times. Nothing really essential. The H3Dii can still be serviced, BTW. You are confusing with the original H3D (and even that camera can be serviced in many cases).
If I were you, I'll try to get a H4D-50. They still work very well and if you don't like it, you will be able to sell the camera without losing too much money.
Disclaimer: I am using an H4D-50 myself. I don't feel the need to upgrade.
Thanks, I felt this was a good middle ground as well. It has true focus after all and increased sealing from the H3Dii (as far as I know)
-
What is happening now with mirrorless is a major transformation though, probably only second in scale to the switch from film to digital.
I would argue that this is in fact the first major transformation in the past 20 years.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, I'll definitely take a look at the Hasselblad mirrorless, and, if I can wait this long, at the Fuji. I just hear that using an EV in bright daylight is not a good shooting experience. I have to see for myself if this is true.
-
Quantify what you mean by a good price. The back doesn't really care about the number of shots, while the body will, and if there's an issue, you'd most likely be replacing it. I'd most likely compare the combo to the price of a H4D-50 as the H1/H2 bodies don't have TrueFocus. The reason folks would do a Phase+Hasselblad combo revolve around needing CaptureOne support or just not liking the 645DF/DF+ bodies.
Have you confirmed that you'll get the color and files you're looking for? What lenses are you looking at, and what else will you need to get shooting?
Tape around the gap between the back and body is only one of the entry points i'd worry about - the lens mount and the eye piece mount both offer easy access to dust & grime.
Any time you purchase private party, make sure you have a plan if there is an issue with the gear.
I'm not rushing it and will preferably go with a true focus capable camera.
In case of trouble, do you have to send the Hasselblad to Europe, or can it be fixed (e.g. shutter replacement) in the USA?
-
The XF is an insanely beautiful camera, almost in Bauhaus style design. But I have heard that honeycomb autofocus doesn't work too well.
I also heard that Truefocus really works well.
There is nothing wrong with the XF focus system ... it works well. Regarding TrueFocus, certainly a cool feature, and for your fashion needs if you find yourself doing dramatic focus/recomposing I could see it as an advantage. but it seems there are a great number of fashion shooters that use Phase (and other none true focus systems) that do just fine.
The XF is a platform, and phase has already demonstrated their ability to bring new features/technology to the system. The focus stack tool can come in extremely handy for landscape photographers (especially those using a cmos back with good live view), as does the hyperlocal tool. I think we'll see these tools improve and wouldn't be surprised to see new features added to enhance the camera. It's quite possible they could introduce some type of "true focus" capability to the camera.
-
In case of trouble, do you have to send the Hasselblad to Europe, or can it be fixed (e.g. shutter replacement) in the USA?
The center in NJ should be able to do just about anything, though parts may need to be sent over from Europe.
Knowing you're a CaptureOne user, I'd actually say go a step further than the P45+, reach for the P65+ as the added resolution will keep it relevant longer.
-
The center in NJ should be able to do just about anything, though parts may need to be sent over from Europe.
Knowing you're a CaptureOne user, I'd actually say go a step further than the P45+, reach for the P65+ as the added resolution will keep it relevant longer.
Yes, I'd love to - only I haven't seen one with an H mount for sale anywhere. Most Phase One backs (like the Leaf) are H mount.
-
Let me speak to the triggering issues you mentioned - I shoot with the PW Plus X - which are limited to 1/250 sync I believe - and the elinchrom skyports on my H5X. The skyports sync no problem at all speeds on the Hassy, and the PW are just backups (and for use with my Nikons).
Also, I had an H1, and hated the focus system, but when I got True Focus, I actually can shoot things at f/4 and wider and have them be in focus.
-Doug
-
Yes, I'd love to - only I haven't seen one with an H mount for sale anywhere. Most Phase One backs (like the Leaf) are M mount.
Reach out to the dealers - they'll help you get what you need. They will know if someone is looking to trade in, and having a buyer ready makes it less financial risk for them.
-
I have photographed many different subjects with the XF camera and have found no difficulties in getting sharp images. I frequently shoot portraits using focus and recompose at f2.8 and achieve sharp images.
In any event thier are a ton of Dslr cameras with a plethora of auto focus points, if that's what you need to capture the images you want then perhaps choose one of those.
Or you can buy an of Mamiya RZ, Hassy 500 cm or Fuji 680 and learn how to focus and recompose using a simple ground glass. The Leica M series rangefinder cameras were / are an excellent tool to learn hand eye coordination in capturing off center compostions. Not trying to be flippant in any way just speaking to tendency of some to blame the camera for their lack of usage with the tool.
To circle back around to the topic, when you try out the XF camera be sure and set the auto focus to the rear button. I use my right thumb activate the focus and use my index finger for pressing the shutter release.
Whatever camera you end up with....happy snaps.
-
Let me speak to the triggering issues you mentioned - I shoot with the PW Plus X - which are limited to 1/250 sync I believe - and the elinchrom skyports on my H5X. The skyports sync no problem at all speeds on the Hassy, and the PW are just backups (and for use with my Nikons).
Also, I had an H1, and hated the focus system, but when I got True Focus, I actually can shoot things at f/4 and wider and have them be in focus.
-Doug
Thank you for that note about the true focus system. This was actually the thing that made me want to get an H4D, and skip all older cameras.
-
Reach out to the dealers - they'll help you get what you need. They will know if someone is looking to trade in, and having a buyer ready makes it less financial risk for them.
Good idea.
I'll be checking out the Phase One dealer in the coming next weeks between the shoots.
-
My current point of decision if True Focus is such a great thing for a fashion photographer that I should let go an H3Dii-50.
I haven't tried it yet as I'm busy with a deadline and could do no testing.
So, instead of hurrying, I probably let this offer go (the next one's just around the bend).
-
My current point of decision if True Focus is such a great thing for a fashion photographer that I should let go an H3Dii-50.
I haven't tried it yet as I'm busy with a deadline and could do no testing.
So, instead of hurrying, I probably let this offer go (the next one's just around the bend).
Really really much better not to rush. The most common mistake in getting into medium format, by far, is to see some camera on an auction site or forum or whatever and pull the trigger because you think it's a "great deal". First, it rarely is that crazy of a deal. Second, a good deal on the wrong camera for your needs is not a good deal at all. It's very likely this will not be your only medium format digital purchase. So over several lenses, and upgrade or two, and accessories, you'll be spending a lot of money building a system. Best to make darn sure from the start you're building it on the foundation that best fits your needs.
If you're going to buy from a dealer rather than used you'll be able to test whatever you're buying and compare many systems, and leverage their knowledge of the product to avoid misunderstandings. For example, the H3D did not have True Focus. It was introduced at the H4 series. We (DT, Phase One, LA (https://digitaltransitions.com/contact-us/)) have H4X and H5X bodies (same True Focus as their "D" counterparts) that you'd be welcome to test and compare to the XF. That should tell you, far more than forum posts, whether that feature is important to you.
-
The most common mistake in getting into medium format, by far, is to see some camera on an auction site or forum or whatever and pull the trigger
OTOH, buying a second hand MF, try it for a month or two to see the general advantages and disadvantages of MF and resell it afterwards is basically free rental.
-
Really really much better not to rush. The most common mistake in getting into medium format, by far, is to see some camera on an auction site or forum or whatever and pull the trigger because you think it's a "great deal". First, it rarely is that crazy of a deal. Second, a good deal on the wrong camera for your needs is not a good deal at all. It's very likely this will not be your only medium format digital purchase. So over several lenses, and upgrade or two, and accessories, you'll be spending a lot of money building a system. Best to make darn sure from the start you're building it on the foundation that best fits your needs.
If you're going to buy from a dealer rather than used you'll be able to test whatever you're buying and compare many systems, and leverage their knowledge of the product to avoid misunderstandings. For example, the H3D did not have True Focus. It was introduced at the H4 series. We (DT, Phase One, LA (https://digitaltransitions.com/contact-us/)) have H4X and H5X bodies (same True Focus as their "D" counterparts) that you'd be welcome to test and compare to the XF. That should tell you, far more than forum posts, whether that feature is important to you.
Absolutely. Prices on used cameras never rise. There was H3Dii-50 at an insanely low price, but I didn't want to just buy it. First it didn't have TrueFocus and I didn't, at this time, know anything about the back except it got a bad rating at this DXO mark.
Even if one misses one great opportunity, the next one is just around the corner, and even if I would miss a good deal, I wouldn't like the rush and the lack of a conscious decision. I'm not planning to buy within the next four weeks, and am just scanning what lenses are coming up for sale and what price. My key point will be to actually get detailed info about the backs and, if possible, test shoot them and check out the files.
-
OTOH, buying a second hand MF, try it for a month or two to see the general advantages and disadvantages of MF and resell it afterwards is basically free rental.
From what I have seen, older MF cameras and backs sell at very low prices and often not at all.
I pretty much know what I want - and will check and research which back will give it to me. I'll check out the P45+, P65+, IQ160 (which would go with a H4X) and the Hasselblad H4D-50, H4D-60, H5D-50, and H5D-60 . And I'll be open to suggestions in regard to Leaf backs
-
And I won't completely rule out the X1D - even though I don't like the idea of an electronic viewfinder. I want a big viewfinder for composition.
-
From what I have seen, older MF cameras and backs sell at very low prices and often not at all.
If you buy them cheap, you are pretty sure not to lose much money, aren't you?
I pretty much know what I want - and will check and research which back will give it to me.
So what so you want? You gave some ideas in your first post and many older MFs would fit the bill. Any other wants beyond what you already wrote?
As to the viewfinder, electronic viewfinders are not as large and not as as MF viewfinders by a very large margin. I have demoed the X1D, its viewfinder is similar to the one of the RX1 which I have. I can directly compare the RX1 to my H4D, it's like day and night.
-
Hi,
Did you compare in night or day?
In dark places EVF really shines, albeit they probably don't work well in the darkest night.
Best regards
Erik
If you buy them cheap, you are pretty sure not to lose much money, aren't you?
So what so you want? You gave some ideas in your first post and many older MFs would fit the bill. Any other wants beyond what you already wrote?
As to the viewfinder, electronic viewfinders are not as large and not as as MF viewfinders by a very large margin. I have demoed the X1D, its viewfinder is similar to the one of the RX1 which I have. I can directly compare the RX1 to my H4D, it's like day and night.
-
Did you compare in night or day?
In dark places EVF really shines, albeit they probably don't work well in the darkest night.
The o.p. is not interested in high iso, so I gather he will only use the viewfinder by good light.