Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Mike Sellers on September 22, 2015, 11:57:17 am
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Anyone using one of these? Opinions?
Mike
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I feel like it's better but next the new Phase XF it feels a bit dated. But it's better, more refined, doesn't freeze up so much. Feels and looks better (except for the silly colour - just make it black for crying out loud!). Materials and finish feel a bit more fine, it feels a bit more tighter, like the tolerances have improved. Works better with Phase Backs - I don't get the errors I used to constantly get with them. But the focus is still as average-bad as it was.
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H5-X is about the only camera one can buy new today and use any MFDB on it or even film... No competition really... and no other "open" camera platform either.
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H5-X is about the only camera one can buy new today and use any MFDB on it or even film... No competition really... and no other "open" camera platform either.
It even supports Phase One P+ backs which the XF doesn't do anymore... :)
I can't speak for the H5X but I do own the H4X and although I don't use it much anymore it is an excellent and very reliable camera. Personally I find the AF to be very good.
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Yup - what everyone else said. Been using it about a year, AF is a HUGE step up from the H1, love it.
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It even supports Phase One P+ backs which the XF doesn't do anymore... :)
To think of the crap HB took when they locked out non-HB DB users ... and now, having returned to an open system (passing P1 going in the opposite direction in the process), HB have the only solution to P/P+ users wanting to use a decent SLR body. Amazing.
What corporate thinking led P1 to come to the decision to lock out a large proportion of their user base is beyond me - did they think we're all going to run out and upgrade to an IQ? Or a Credo? Hang on a sec, the Credo line doesn't work either.
And all they had to do was engineer a simple a wake-up signal ...
Oh dear.
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To think of the crap HB took when they locked out non-HB DB users ... and now, having returned to an open system (passing P1 going in the opposite direction in the process), HB have the only solution to P/P+ users wanting to use a decent SLR body. Amazing.
What corporate thinking led P1 to come to the decision to lock out a large proportion of their user base is beyond me - did they think we're all going to run out and upgrade to an IQ? Or a Credo? Hang on a sec, the Credo line doesn't work either.
And all they had to do was engineer a simple a wake-up signal ...
Oh dear.
It's pretty obvious the capability is there. But locked.
Edmund
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To think of the crap HB took when they locked out non-HB DB users ... and now, having returned to an open system (passing P1 going in the opposite direction in the process), HB have the only solution to P/P+ users wanting to use a decent SLR body. Amazing.
What corporate thinking led P1 to come to the decision to lock out a large proportion of their user base is beyond me - did they think we're all going to run out and upgrade to an IQ? Or a Credo? Hang on a sec, the Credo line doesn't work either.
And all they had to do was engineer a simple a wake-up signal ...
Oh dear.
First of all, Phase has gone on record saying that Credo support is coming soon. I have independently gotten assurances from two dealers for the same.
Are any other manufacturers making backs for the Mamiya platform? As far as I know, nobody is. Nobody did, even when the DF+ was around.
This is a very different situation from Hasselblad locking a body and back together so that one couldn't even use another Hasselblad back on the Hasselblad body they had purchased.
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First of all, Phase has gone on record saying that Credo support is coming soon. I have independently gotten assurances from two dealers for the same.
Are any other manufacturers making backs for the Mamiya platform? As far as I know, nobody is. Nobody did, even when the DF+ was around.
This is a very different situation from Hasselblad locking a body and back together so that one couldn't even use another Hasselblad back on the Hasselblad body they had purchased.
Sinar makes the backs for Mamiya mount... but anyway, it's not only P series backs that are not supported, it's also older Imacon and Hasselblad CF backs as well as Sinar E-motion backs.... I guess the owners of such backs that are very happy with them, will be highly dissapointed with P1's decision... Clearly not a wise marketing choice for P-1... My guess is that it will be penalized my the market the same as HB was...
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((Posted by Synn).....This is a very different situation from Hasselblad locking a body and back together so that one couldn't even use another Hasselblad back on the Hasselblad body they had purchased.....)
One could always use any H4d or H3dII back on any H3dII or H4d camera. The only thing that was missing is the "extreme calibration"... but neither Phase nor Leaf ever had such a level of integration between back and body. I often swapped my H3dII back on a H4d body, works fin :-)
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Sinar makes the backs for Mamiya mount... but anyway, it's not only P series backs that are not supported, it's also older Imacon and Hasselblad CF backs as well as Sinar E-motion backs.... I guess the owners of such backs that are very happy with them, will be highly dissapointed with P1's decision... Clearly not a wise marketing choice for P-1... My guess is that it will be penalized my the market the same as HB was...
I can't speak about their business plan, but I am hazarding a guess that the number of older Imacon, Hasselblad and Sinar back owners who were waiting for P1 to release a modern body is nowhere as high the number of Phase/ Mamiya owners waiting for the same. The ROI for engineering the necessary protocols for a handful of legacy system owners probably just isn't there.
Now, could they have reverse engineered P+ and Aptus II support? That they could very well have. And this I see as a valid argument. But not legacy support for third party manufacturers who had a marginal installbase on the Phamiya platform to begin with.
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((Posted by Synn).....This is a very different situation from Hasselblad locking a body and back together so that one couldn't even use another Hasselblad back on the Hasselblad body they had purchased.....)
One could always use any H4d or H3dII back on any H3dII or H4d camera. The only thing that was missing is the "extreme calibration"... but neither Phase nor Leaf ever had such a level of integration between back and body. I often swapped my H3dII back on a H4d body, works fin :-)
This is news for me. Back when I was shopping around for a medium format kit, the friendly neighborhood Hasselblad dealer catagorically stated that this is not possible. :)
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http://photorumors.com/2015/10/04/rumors-hasselblad-could-be-purchased-by-phase-one/
Maybe Hasselblad users would get their wish afterall... :)
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I can't speak about their business plan, but I am hazarding a guess that the number of older Imacon, Hasselblad and Sinar back owners who were waiting for P1 to release a modern body is nowhere as high the number of Phase/ Mamiya owners waiting for the same. The ROI for engineering the necessary protocols for a handful of legacy system owners probably just isn't there.
Now, could they have reverse engineered P+ and Aptus II support? That they could very well have. And this I see as a valid argument. But not legacy support for third party manufacturers who had a marginal installbase on the Phamiya platform to begin with.
You seem to give a "strange" explanation for P1's behavior... The subject is not how many customers there are that would consider replacing their older platform for a modern one by Phamyia, nor how many could buy the platform and choose a S/H cheap back until they build the system up... It's not how well users of modern IQ or Credo backs are served either... It is rather that serving to the max the customers that will use an IQ back, doesn't mean that other back users have to be excluded... So the only explanation is that it is an arrogant move from P1 that is deliberate as to blackmail customers to also invest on an IQ (or Credo) back... It's the same that HB did a few years ago and I believe that the market's reaction will be the same as it was with HB...
I won't be surprised if they'll introduce a new software in the next years as to "free" the camera after they do a marketing research on the reasons that will cause the numbers not to be achieved...
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http://photorumors.com/2015/10/04/rumors-hasselblad-could-be-purchased-by-phase-one/
Maybe Hasselblad users would get their wish afterall... :)
IMO, it will be Leica that will buy Hasselblad... That is unless if they'll decide to resurrect the Contax instead..., whatever will suit Leica best (and will be more cost effective) will come true... P1 has enough trouble of their own to solve. If Leica will decide different, then... you never know!
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It is rather that serving to the max the customers that will use an IQ back, doesn't mean that other back users have to be excluded
No really, I am trying to understand your point here. Why should Phase One spend R&D efforts to support legacy DB platforms whose users have not in the past bought any Phamiya bodies or lenses and have shown no concrete interest in doing so in the future as well? (This does not include P+ and Aptus II owners, who I have addressed in the previous post).
Your post has a lot of "What if" conditions attached to it. One could ask the same about every other manufacturer as well. What if leica had made a modular system that can take any back? Would a large number of P1, Leaf and Hasselblad back owners change their bodies to Leica? Leica probably asked this question themselves when they starrted work on their paltform, saw that the Return On Investment was not there and dropped the plans. Same situation here, if I am guessing.
As a legacy back owner, you can get 95% of the functionality of the XF with Contax or HxX bodies and associated lenses. The only added functionalities you would be able to enjoy from the body are with current gen P1 (And Leaf in the future) backs anyway. So what exactly are you complaining about?
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To put it in a simpler way, if you are the owner of a legacy Imacon/ Hasselblad or Sinar back and are already using a Contax or Hasselblad HxX body and lenses, there is very little you will gain by moving to the XF and Phamiya lenses at a considerable expense. While this is a theortetical possibility, it has very little practical relevance to an actual user.
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I never understood photographer's that were more camera brand centric, than buyer centric.
Everything that I have written in the previous posts were from a buyer's perspective. Not sure what you are aiming at.
Personally, I don't believe Phase could not have included their P+ and Credo users right at the get go of their new camera.
Exclusion of P+ users is a real problem, which I have mentioned multiple times.
Credo support is definitely coming, which has also mentioned multiple times. Every time P1 has released somethign after they took over Leaf, the Leaf version was released a few months after the P1 version. Why should this be any different? As an Actual Leaf user, I have no problem in waiting, as long as it is here.
After all they worked backwards compatible with their backs on Contax and Hasselblad because a large part of their buyers didn't want to go to the df series mamiya.
...and they still do, except for Contax, which is a system that has been dead for longer than most celebrities remain married for these days.
1. Contax user walks in wanting a new back and the Phase dealer says, sorry we don't support that any more . . . but our new camera is a modern version of the Contax for just $8,000 more.
If the Contax user is an IQ1 or IQ2 user, they gain practically nothing by upgrading to the IQ3 that is not available in their mount.
If the contax user has a P+ back AND wants to upgrade to a newer back, they can upgrade to IQ1, IQ2 or Credo, which are all available in their mounts and are much more cost effective.
2. P+ owner walks in wanting the new Phase cameras and the dealer says, sorry we don't support that any more . . . but our new camera works great with our new backs for just $22,000 more.
Yep, this one is a real problem. They did have upgrade deals going on in the first few months though for these customers. I believe some here took up on those offers too.Not THE solution P+ owners wanted, but slightly better than throwing them under the bus.
Lecia took the opposite tactic and allowed their whole series of S cameras to work with H series and contax lenses, with FULL functionality and it was Leica that got my check.
As a buyer, that was an important feature you wanted and Leica gave it to you, so good for you.
As a buyer, I wanted removable backs, 4:3 sensors, affordable, good legacy lenses and nothing smaller than 44x33. Leica gave me none of those, so they didn't get my check. So for my requirements, Mamiyaleaf is a much more customer friendly company than Leica.
But maybe it's just me being selfish, because I relate more to the camera user, not the maker.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/desert_duel.jpg)
Me too, which is why I am in the camera using business, not the camera selling one.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2650/4150359464_bb7f345384_b.jpg)
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For every dollar an artist spends on equipment, that's one less dollar they can spend on investment in front of the lens.
IMO
BC
Ne'er a truer word was said in jest.
On the other hand many photographers self-describe as crafstmen, commercial service providers or amateurs and not "artists". Did Picasso use retouchers?
Edmund
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I never understood photographer's that were more camera brand centric, than buyer centric.
For every dollar an artist spends on equipment, that's one less dollar they can spend on investment in front of the lens.
Personally, I don't believe Phase could not have included their P+ and Credo users right at the get go of their new camera.
After all they worked backwards compatible with their backs on Contax and Hasselblad because a large part of their buyers didn't want to go to the df series mamiya.
Now that they've come out with a modern version of a Contax, they've locked out contax with their new digital back and many of heir own legacy back owners, with the plan to move them to newer, more expensive backs.
To me that strategy isn't a technical challenge, it's a sales tactic.
1. Contax user walks in wanting a new back and the Phase dealer says, sorry we don't support that any more . . . but our new camera is a modern version of the Contax for just $8,000 more.
2. P+ owner walks in wanting the new Phase cameras and the dealer says, sorry we don't support that any more . . . but our new camera works great with our new backs for just $22,000 more.
If phase wants to lock out Hasselblad backs, so be it, that is their active competition, (though who would put a hasselbad back on a phase camera?).
Lecia took the opposite tactic and allowed their whole series of S cameras to work with H series and contax lenses, with FULL functionality and it was Leica that got my check and not because I'm in love with Leica or feel anyone should go that direction. It just worked for me.
But maybe it's just me being selfish, because I relate more to the camera user, not the maker.
IMO
BC
It's funny how some people become "company funs"... It's really annoying too... It is supposed that photographers care about photography first... not for business arogance! Yet, some think of it as funs of a football team :o
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It's funny how some people become "company funs"... It's really annoying too... It is supposed that photographers care about photography first... not for business arogance! Yet, some think of it as funs of a football team :o
Problems start when people become fans of a politician rather than a camera brand ... especially if this politician likes war.
I have my favourite colour pencil these days, it draws better than your colour pencil :)
Edmund
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It's funny how some people become "company funs"... It's really annoying too... It is supposed that photographers care about photography first... not for business arogance! Yet, some think of it as funs of a football team :o
Yeah, like how some people who just can't stop talking about Leica and Sinar in every single thread. They sure act like the fAns of a football team. ;)
Anyway, fans talk with emotions. My posts were filled with factual information. You can try to have a factual discussion to disprove them if you can, else I will just ignore the conversation in this thread from here on.
"He's a fanboi" is one of the lamest and oldest copouts in the history of the internet, used by people who don't have a real counter point to present.
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Problems start when people become fans of a politician rather than a camera brand ... especially if this politician likes war.
I have my favourite colour pencil these days, it draws better than your colour pencil :)
Edmund
BTW, I have no issue if J or anyone else is a "fan" — this place is like a sportsbar with lots of ex-team members present.
Edmund
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Yeah, like how some people who just can't stop talking about Leica and Sinar in every single thread. They sure act like the fAns of a football team. ;)
Anyway, fans talk with emotions. My posts were filled with factual information. You can try to have a factual discussion to disprove them if you can, else I will just ignore the conversation in this thread from here on.
"He's a fanboi" is one of the lamest and oldest copouts in the history of the internet, used by people who don't have a real counter point to present.
Now that you mentioned Leica & Sinar, aren't they the only group of companies worth talking about (in a positive way)? I mean Sinar makes backs for everybody no matter what camera one would use and has a series of tech & view cameras (again open to all backs) and Leica has invited (and actually encouraged) users of older lenses to keep using their glass! Compare that with P1's policy of refusing to support Rollei for backs and now (again) refusing all older back users... Not to mention that they do everything to their power as to convince people that there is an alternative to multishot....
Remember how Hasselblad's fall started? It wasn't when the "closed" the H3... It really happened when they stopped making the CF backs although the technology was the same as the H backs and thus costed them very little... They just refused to be a part of the rest of the photographic world and demanded people to use "all HB" if they ever wanted one of their products! In other words they refused the whole idea of modularity (the V system) that was the basis of their own success up to that point! ....Same as P1 is doing now.
Lets all hope that after Leica will come up with the open MF platform that they need as to offer an "in house" solution for the Sinarbacks, P1 will "wake up"... otherwise I see their customers getting as frustrated as HB customers where in the past when they realize that they've being trapped (without ever being notified) in a system that does half things and is a financial disaster to keep it up to date...
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Now that you mentioned Leica & Sinar, aren't they the only group of companies worth talking about (in a positive way)? I mean Sinar makes backs for everybody no matter what camera one would use and has a series of tech & view cameras (again open to all backs) and Leica has invited (and actually encouraged) users of older lenses to keep using their glass! Compare that with P1's policy of refusing to support Rollei for backs and now (again) refusing all older back users... Not to mention that they do everything to their power as to convince people that there is an alternative to multishot....
This is an actual, productive post. Thank you.
As far as I understand, Sinar's backs are to be mainly used in a studio and are mostly used by people who use tech and view cameras (or systems such as the Fuji GX or Mamiya RZ). Phase and Leaf backs can be used on all of those systems without any restrictions. The bonus is that they work untethered too.
Speaking of lenses, the Leica allowing lenses from other manufacturers thing is a strawman argument as well. It is the only way to get moderately priced lenses for the S platform as an alternative to the stupidly high priced Leica lenses, which is why they are doing it. You forget that the M645 platform has several legacy lenses at 3 digit prices that are amazingly good even to this day, giving full AF. You don't need to buy a $1000 adapter to use them as well. I know, because I use several of them.
There was a post I made a while ago that compared the current day lens prices between the Phamiya and Leica platforms that demonstrated how the former is actually cheaper in every case.
I am not a multishot or repro expert, but I do not recollect any official literature from Phase or Leaf saying that their products are BETTER than multishot. Some lone voices claiming so does not equate to the official company stance. But the fact remains, Phase actively markets to cultural heritage institutions and they seem to be buyng the products. I a hazarding a guess that the quality of the files is one deciding factor as well.
Remember how Hasselblad's fall started? It wasn't when the "closed" the H3... It really happened when they stopped making the CF backs although the technology was the same as the H backs and thus costed them very little... They just refused to be a part of the rest of the photographic world and demanded people to use "all HB" if they ever wanted one of their products! In other words they refused the whole idea of modularity (the V system) that was the basis of their own success up to that point! ....Same as P1 is doing now.
It's funny that you mention Hasselblad ending the CF line. Phase/ Leaf has never stopped making backs for the V mount and they are continuing to make them. Hasselbald is not making the CFV 50c or H series backs for the M645 platform (The most popular MF platform as of today) as we speak.
So what is this comparison aiming to achieve?
Let's examine the current market situation.
- A Phase/ Leaf back user can use the XF body (IQ3), the DF+, Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX, Every leading tech and view cam platform (IQ2, IQ1, Credo) and the Hy6 (Credo) Untethered
- A Hasselblad back user can use the H body (H) or the Hasselblad V, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX (CFV), Every leading tech and view cam platform (H and CFV) Untethered
- A Sinar back user can use the DF+, Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX, Every leading tech and view cam platform and the Hy6 Tethered
For a company that you seem to accuse of being the most closed, Phase/Leaf seems to be offering the users the most options for their back users.
I know that people like to quote selective truth here, especially when it comes to Phase One as there are several axes to be grinded against them. Go ahead, call me a fanboi again when the whole picture is presented in a factual fashion.
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I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative? What has P1 back policy has to do with anything if most of them don't work on the XF but do work on the H-5X? We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!
By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...
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I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative?
Nope. That's how the thread started, but then the conversation de-volved into how P1 is closed and everyone else is so open. My response is only to that point. Haven't seen anyone disprove anything I have said so far. I expect the axe grinders to fully ignore the facts and carry on spouting their tired old lines though.
We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!
What I have listed in the previous post is P1's policy up until today. That makes them the manufacturer with the most options for their customers as of Oct 6, 2015. This is a fact, not an opinion.
It might change in the future and if it does, we can talk about it then.
By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...
I will believe it when I see it.
For now, it's just a pipe dream while Phase/ Leaf are shipping actual backs that work on several platforms untethered.
Again, fact, not opinion.
Anyway, this topic has run its course. I am moving on.
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Jenoptik is the originator of the Multishot technique AFAIK. So it's not surprising they make MS backs. These are now sold under the Sinar brand.
I'm sure that in due course Jenoptik/Sinar will come up with a German solution that German cultural institutions can buy. As Germans probably now have 2/3 or so of the money in Europe and a stronger voice every day in standards matters, that may keep the company's backs alive.But for the rest, frankly I think MF has suffered from a lack of innovation and there is little there to sell it to end-users.
It is new tech which breeds new tech usage. Look what Olympus has pulled out of its hat - a camera which can do MS, fits in a pocket and costs the price of a medium format lens cap. And btw, I was telling people on this forum a year ago that this could be done with the new in-camera IBIS stabilisers and nobody believed me.
Edmund
I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative? What has P1 back policy has to do with anything if most of them don't work on the XF but do work on the H-5X? We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!
By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...