Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jeff-Grant on May 13, 2015, 08:45:43 pm
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I am having a few challenges using EEF curves to print Epson Traditional Photo paper on K7 inks. Everything that I have read says they are the same, and I'm happy to believe that as it wouldn't be the first time Epson called a paper different names around the world. I downloaded the Pixel Genius profiles and the TPP one from the Epson Australia site. One shows Logo in the copyright, the other says Xrite. Comparing the two profiles, there are differences. How significant those differences are, I'm hoping to discover here. In the attached plot TPP is single colour while EEF is true colour.
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The best way to tell how significant this kind of difference is would be to bring the files into Lightroom or Photoshop, view them under softproof and switch between the two profiles for comparison. Look at the images and look at the histograms. You may also examine the statistics on gamut volume if you have profile analysis software giving you that data (e.g. ColorThink Pro). In the final analysis - make a couple of trial prints adjusted to your nearest liking that each paper/profile combo allows and use the combo that works best in your conditions.
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Mark, I'm not trying to decide which too buy. In Australia, I can buy TPP not EEF. What I'm trying to get to is whether the two papers are the same or not. Looking at the profile maps, the answer would appear to be a no. However, I don't know whether that can be explained by different software to make the profile, or paper batch variation, or whether they are really not the same paper.
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Oh - I thought your main concern was the difference of the profiles. I have no idea whether the two papers are the same product. Others may know - otherwise I suppose contacting Epson would be a good way to find out. This should be no secret - one would hope. :-)
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Talking to Epson is worse than a quiet afternoon reading Vogon poetry. My experience, in Australia, is that they are uninformed, unhelpful and disinterested. I'll add the CTP compare.
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Continuing with my investigation, here's another comparison using IGFS. This is the canned profile in true colour vs my own in red. That's what I would have expected from the two Epson profiles.
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Talking to Epson is worse than a quiet afternoon reading Vogon poetry. My experience, in Australia, is that they are uninformed, unhelpful and disinterested. I'll add the CTP compare.
From what I can see in the compare, the differences are not large. If you are trying to tell the difference between the papers through differences of the profiles you may be a bit SOL in the situation, which may be relevant here, where two different sub-contractors have made profiles for the separate papers perhaps using different profiling equipment/software, or edited differently. Really hard to be certain one way or another.
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Mark, I agree, which is why I compared my own on IGFS to the canned and got a much closer result which is what I would have expected. On the CT comparison, what it's telling me is that most of the colour is noticeably different. I'm really hoping for someone from Epson to stumble in and confirm that they are different papers. Then I would know how to solve my problem. I know that I could profile the paper that I have, and will do so if I can't get an answer. I've used the best part of a box so far without even getting close to a print. I also want this as a K7 paper only so profiling would be just another load of paper for no result.
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They are by all accounts the same paper with different names. Keith Cooper mentions they are one and the same in his review of the paper http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/paper/epson_TPP_EFP.html
Although I have onloy samples of the EFF, my measurements of its spectral response curve very closely resembles that of Ernst Dinkla in his Spectrum Viz app: http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Have you tried downloading the profile directly from Pixel Genius? http://pixelgenius.com/epson/
Brian A
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Brian,
That is the Pixel Genius EEF profile in the comparison. The TPP one comes from Epson Australia. I too have seen statements that they are the same from Keith and others.
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I too have seen statements that they are the same from Keith and others.
And that's what we been told from Epson Sweden. A great paper, except for the fast fading OBA:s. So for prints that are to be exhibited for a longer period, several months ore more, I would select another paper.
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That's interesting, Stefan. I wouldn't have thought so from the profiles but I'm hoping for someone more knowledgeable than me to venture an opinion. On the OBA topic, is it an issue under glass as well?
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That's interesting, Stefan. I wouldn't have thought so from the profiles but I'm hoping for someone more knowledgeable than me to venture an opinion. On the OBA topic, is it an issue under glass as well?
Glass filters out the UV content in light, even more if you use a glass with UV-filter. On the other hand, the OBA will not be activated when you filter out the UV light, which means that an Epson Exhibition paper under glass will not be as bright as another paper that doesn't contain as much OBA from the start.
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And that's what we been told from Epson Sweden. A great paper, except for the fast fading OBA:s. So for prints that are to be exhibited for a longer period, several months ore more, I would select another paper.
If the OBAs are fast-fading I would even be wary of their long-term integrity in dark storage.
The other thing that I find concerning is why have two names for the same paper. This just confuses the market and if so, is really poor marketing.
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The other thing that I find concerning is why have two names for the same paper. This just confuses the market and if so, is really poor marketing.
In U.S the paper is advertised to be much better than traditional papers. In Europe it's called Traditional ;D
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In U.S the paper is advertised to be much better than traditional papers. In Europe it's called Traditional ;D
Interesting - so the paper marketing people in Epson probably have this view that Americans are attracted to breaking tradition and Europeans to sustaining it. Who knows, but still seems silly to me. Recall George Eastman who developed the name "Kodak" as it would be pronounced and heard the same way all over the world. In his day, as the historians would have it, he knew marketing like few others.
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That's interesting, Stefan. I wouldn't have thought so from the profiles but I'm hoping for someone more knowledgeable than me to venture an opinion. On the OBA topic, is it an issue under glass as well?
I don't see the slight difference in profile gamuts as being indicative of different papers. For my most used paper, Canson Rag Photographique, I have several profile optimized for different conditions: accuracy vs wider gamut, and CIE Illuminant A vs D50. If the profiles came out the same, there would be no point in doing this. For a paper with such a high OBA content as EFF, whether the patches were measured with UV cut or UV included would make a substantial difference to the profile.
Brian A
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That's interesting, Stefan. I wouldn't have thought so from the profiles but I'm hoping for someone more knowledgeable than me to venture an opinion. On the OBA topic, is it an issue under glass as well?
Use the search function on this site to find many prior posts that talk about Eps Exh Fiber and its high OBA content and comparatively rapid color change.
Brad
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Brad, having searched, I've found reference to base tone fading. I'm not sure that I understand exactly what that means. Will my prints look different or what? I have used IGFS for years and never had an issue with it that I noticed. For people to be commenting, there must be something quite obvious. I'm only planning on using it with K7 inks so I'd like to know what the pitfalls are.
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Brad, having searched, I've found reference to base tone fading. I'm not sure that I understand exactly what that means. Will my prints look different or what? I have used IGFS for years and never had an issue with it that I noticed. For people to be commenting, there must be something quite obvious. I'm only planning on using it with K7 inks so I'd like to know what the pitfalls are.
For white and light colors, the profiles rely on the paper white. There is no white pigment ink in your ink set. If the paper white changes, then all the light colors (in your case grays) will also change. You will see a shift from the neutrals the profile created towards browning.
It isn't a paper I would go to for stability over time.
Brian A
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Thanks Brian. Got it. I haven't heard of this with HPR Baryta or IGFS. Is that because I haven't looked?
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Thanks Brian. Got it. I haven't heard of this with HPR Baryta or IGFS. Is that because I haven't looked?
Why it happens, is up for discussion, and has been discussed on these forums in the past. But, Hahnemühle Photo Rag Baryta doesn't appear to have any OBA content, and while Ilford Gold Fibre Silk appears to have more than it used to, it still has a lot less than Epson Traditional/Exhibition Fibre. It could also be where the OBA dyes are in the papers (throughout, top, base, surface coating), when they are added, the type of dyes they used, who knows?
If you do not have a spectrophotometer and software necessary to measure paper spectral reflectance, do yourself a favour and download Ernst Dinkla's Spectrum Viz app. It has measurements for several hundred papers. (That peak around 440 nm is indicative of OBA content.)
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
It is a very useful tool, and it is very good of Ernst to put all this data out for anyone to use.
Brian A
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Thanks Brian. I've got all the gear necessary including an io that I bought when the price was still reasonable. I'll look at Ernst's info too.
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Check Aardenburg-Imaging tests of the EEF, about 8 if I recall it correctly. Especially the shift of the paper white in time. This shift goes beyond the deactivation of the OBA, there is more going on. There are papers that stand time better, even some papers with OBA content.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Thanks Brian. I've got all the gear necessary including an io that I bought when the price was still reasonable. I'll look at Ernst's info too.
If you want to do spectral plots using an i1Pro 2, the easiest way I have found is with ColorPort 2.0 (free download from X-rite), with 3 or 5 blank patches, data saved as a CSV file, then opened in a spreadsheet, averaged for each wavelength, and then plotted. If you are interested in the affects of OBAs, include UV and do the extended range from 380-730 nm, rather than the default 400-700 nm.
Brian A