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Author Topic: A Fine Rant  (Read 4051 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2015, 03:11:46 pm »

Then again, nihil novi sub sole.. What some are experiencing today is just Taylorism in the age of the Internet.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 04:15:13 pm »

Hi,

I would agree on many points. Times are changing. A couple of year ago I opened a Dell computer. All parts of it were made in China, well expect a plastic bag having the label "The contents of this bag made in China". First manufacturing moves to China, then development moves to China or India and any other country with skilled work and engineering force. I just saw a video selling satellite launch services by an Indian company.

The ghost left the bottle, we cannot put it back.

Giving members of the society access to great and useful education is important. It is also important that kids get marketable education. We also may need to lower the thresholds for entry in the job market. Times are changing leading to a need of change.

Best regards
Erik




I disagree with this in part. In my direct experience modern tech can allow people to pursue their passions and make a good living from doing so in ways not previously possible. But it takes a particular kind of person—highly self-motivated & persistent—with the right mix of talents & skills, along with no small amount of luck, to make this work. There are other ways, however, such tech can be and is used—likely more common at present and not at all positive—which is what the piece is about.

IMO this all leads to considering further, longer-term issues. Given the tech-driven changing nature of the jobs market and the advances we're seeing across the board in efficiency & automation—and the accelerating decrease in the need for human employees resulting from this—what are most of the 7,000,000,000+ people on this planet gonna do when only a relative handful of 'em are needed to keep the whole shebang going? Will the result be some sort of dessicated J.G. Ballard-ish "a billion balconies facing the sun" scenario? An oligarchy of A$$hole Supremes? Something even more dystopian? More hopeful? Regardless, a fundamental reconsideration of what human society is and how it functions would seem to be in order.

-Dave-
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 05:02:24 pm »

I disagree with this in part. In my direct experience modern tech can allow people to pursue their passions and make a good living from doing so in ways not previously possible. But it takes a particular kind of person—highly self-motivated & persistent—with the right mix of talents & skills, along with no small amount of luck, to make this work. There are other ways, however, such tech can be and is used—likely more common at present and not at all positive—which is what the piece is about.
I agree with you and that's why I wrote "modern technology is teaching us is that almost always your passions won't fill your belly": because technology has risen the bar so much that you have to be exceptional to earn a living with your passion.

The perfect example is photography: just a quick look at any photosharing site will show megatons of excellent photographers, so in order to make money on photography being "good" is not enough.



IMO this all leads to considering further, longer-term issues. Given the tech-driven changing nature of the jobs market and the advances we're seeing across the board in efficiency & automation—and the accelerating decrease in the need for human employees resulting from this—what are most of the 7,000,000,000+ people on this planet gonna do when only a relative handful of 'em are needed to keep the whole shebang going? Will the result be some sort of dessicated J.G. Ballard-ish "a billion balconies facing the sun" scenario? An oligarchy of A$$hole Supremes? Something even more dystopian? More hopeful? Regardless, a fundamental reconsideration of what human society is and how it functions would seem to be in order.
-Dave-

That's something that should take into account.
My opinion is that competition will require more and more minds, and technology is starting to allow science-oriented people to do what digital cameras did for image-oriented people.




The ghost left the bottle, we cannot put it back.

Giving members of the society access to great and useful education is important. It is also important that kids get marketable education. We also may need to lower the thresholds for entry in the job market. Times are changing leading to a need of change.

Yeaph, I agree completely.
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mezzoduomo

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 08:24:52 pm »

Given the tech-driven changing nature of the jobs market and the advances we're seeing across the board in efficiency & automation—and the accelerating decrease in the need for human employees resulting from this—what are most of the 7,000,000,000+ people on this planet gonna do when only a relative handful of 'em are needed to keep the whole shebang going?

-Dave-

A couple thoughts....
First, this: http://www.morningstar.com/cover/videocenter.aspx?id=686686

Worker shortages are likely on the horizon.

Second, if higher education only has value as a 'trade school', teaching what somebody today predicts will be highly marketable skills tomorrow, why do even many high tech companies hire Philosophy and English majors in addition to the scores of engineering grads? Maybe because while the degree matters, previous accomplishments and the ability to think/innovate/drive results also matter, and because the future of work also will require strong interpersonal and communication skills, not just math and science. My experience with engineers tells me they might not always bring those interpersonal and communications skills.  ;)

Just food for thought.
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ErikKaffehr

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Just a couple of observations…
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2015, 01:14:17 am »

Hi,

Just having education is not enough, it needs to be relevant education that leads to jobs instead of unemployment. Slobodan is also right, that high education may be a hindrance to getting entry level jobs.

We are a tech company and we used to hire young persons doing simple, but still demanding work. Once a young chap applied for one of those jobs, denying that he had a master Of Science degree. He also said he used to worke in a storehouse, forgetting to say that he was developing software for storehouse management. Well, he got that job anyway.

On the other hand, my parent company has a policy to only employ people with at least high school and qualifications for higher study (that mean acceptable notes in math, physics, chemistry and languages). That also applies to cleaning workers.

We have many educations that lead to unemployment. Just as an example, training to be MUA (Make Up Artist) is very popular with young girls, but the market is small and all successful MU-artist have gone the long way. A good carrier is hard work or a lot of luck. I may add that I had a lot of luck.

Another point may be that a system with to many levels of supervision may just add overhead. It is nice, offering carrier options for the hard workers, but it may also be it leads  to the effects mentioned by Slobodan et. al. A more flat organisation may be more efficient.

A final point may be that a market oriented society needs customers. So there needs to be a distribution of resources so folks get paid so they can buy the stuff that is produced .  Work used to be the method of doing this, so a non dysfunctional labor market and decent salaries are important for a working market economy. Slobodan, who is an expert in economy may elaborate on that aspect.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 01:16:32 am by ErikKaffehr »
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AlterEgo

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2015, 02:49:01 am »

This may be NSFW depending on where and for whom you work. IMO it hits its mark with precision.

https://medium.com/bad-words/the-asshole-factory-71ff808d887c

-Dave-

hmmm... "bright young woman with two grad degrees" who wants to "Learn. Think. Reflect. Teach. Inspire. Lead. Connect. Imagine. Create. Grow. Dream. Actually…serve customers."... that is the problem, we create a lot of parasites - they want to earn degrees and then waste the resources with that useless "far niente", blah-blah-blah...
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2015, 03:27:51 am »

hmmm... "bright young woman with two grad degrees" who wants to "Learn. Think. Reflect. Teach. Inspire. Lead. Connect. Imagine. Create. Grow. Dream. Actually…serve customers."... that is the problem, we create a lot of parasites - they want to earn degrees and then waste the resources with that useless "far niente", blah-blah-blah...
More or less, my same exact thougth.



A couple thoughts....
First, this: http://www.morningstar.com/cover/videocenter.aspx?id=686686
Worker shortages are likely on the horizon.
With the education system laggins so behind the market requirements, I think you're right.


Second, if higher education only has value as a 'trade school', teaching what somebody today predicts will be highly marketable skills tomorrow, why do even many high tech companies hire Philosophy and English majors in addition to the scores of engineering grads? Maybe because while the degree matters, previous accomplishments and the ability to think/innovate/drive results also matter, and because the future of work also will require strong interpersonal and communication skills, not just math and science. My experience with engineers tells me they might not always bring those interpersonal and communications skills.  ;)
You're right again.
The problem is many people think that non-technical education only will still get them a good job.
Which is, of course, almost always false.



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Telecaster

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 04:50:11 pm »

A couple thoughts....
First, this: http://www.morningstar.com/cover/videocenter.aspx?id=686686

Worker shortages are likely on the horizon.

Yes, but to whatever degree this happens it's likely to be a short-lived phenomenon. In the longer term exponential advancements in automation and intelligent (not sentient…that's nowhere near the current horizon) robotics are more likely to eliminate entire job classes en masse. What happens when the only people you still need are those who decide what must be done and those creating & programming the devices to do it? And eventually you might not even need the creators/programmers…

Quote
Second, if higher education only has value as a 'trade school', teaching what somebody today predicts will be highly marketable skills tomorrow, why do even many high tech companies hire Philosophy and English majors in addition to the scores of engineering grads? Maybe because while the degree matters, previous accomplishments and the ability to think/innovate/drive results also matter, and because the future of work also will require strong interpersonal and communication skills, not just math and science. My experience with engineers tells me they might not always bring those interpersonal and communications skills.  ;)

I'm a (now retired) techie who also has an English degree, so no argument there.  :)

Regarding Eric's point about producers needing buyers who can afford to buy the stuff they produce is indeed correct. But the degree of automation I see coming eventually elimimates, amongst lots of other things, a large-scale market economy. Which raises questions of who controls various resources, and to what ends. Fortunately the universe is full of resources. Running short of something? Go out there, get more of it and thereby explode the zero-sum game. All you need is one Elon Musk for every 100 Peter Thiels and the latter are screwed.

-Dave-
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: A Fine Rant
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 04:55:58 pm »

Yes, but to whatever degree this happens it's likely to be a short-lived phenomenon. In the longer term exponential advancements in automation and intelligent (not sentient…that's nowhere near the current horizon) robotics are more likely to eliminate entire job classes en masse. What happens when the only people you still need are those who decide what must be done and those creating & programming the devices to do it? And eventually you might not even need the creators/programmers…
There still be need for people that are both creative and technically educated.
But yes, whole job classes will disappeared (which may not be that bad),


Regarding Eric's point about producers needing buyers who can afford to buy the stuff they produce is indeed correct. But the degree of automation I see coming eventually elimimates, amongst lots of other things, a large-scale market economy. Which raises questions of who controls various resources, and to what ends. Fortunately the universe is full of resources. Running short of something? Go out there, get more of it and thereby explode the zero-sum game. All you need is one Elon Musk for every 100 Peter Thiels and the latter are screwed.
I'm not sure the large-scale market economy is in any danger of disappearing: R&D is such a huge cost, for many products, that large scale economy is the only way to go.
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