Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Fifteen Remarks on Composition  (Read 18478 times)

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2015, 11:55:36 am »

Quote
"15 … Creating a brand new composition, one you have never seen before, is difficult
This is because doing so requires transforming the natural chaos into an organized image
It involves creating order out of chaos, as Elliott Porter said."

Transforming "the natural chaos into an organized image" is the fundamental achievement of a creature's visual system.

Noticing that the organized image matches those we customarily regard as artistic is different.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 12:33:16 pm by Isaac »
Logged

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 12:01:24 pm »

I prefer to sift before, not after, taking the photo. I want the experience of being in the environment.

Precisely. The point is that when you postulate picture-taking robots, you're not postulating a solution, you're really just postulating a system in which the fundamental act of selecting a frame is conducted entirely after the exposure(s) is/are made rather than before. Photography remains, essentially, the same. It's just done more indoors.
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 12:08:28 pm »

Quote
If software can be written to enable a camera to recognise a human face for autofocus purposes, I imagine that software could be written to recognise a number of sets and combinations of compositional rules similar to those mentioned by Alain, such as a striking contrast of colour and light, a juxtaposition of a dominant foreground against a large background, a moving object against a static background, a variety of different sizes and shapes, converging lines, and of course the 'rule of thirds'.

At each position where the vehicle momentarily stops to examine the surrounding scene from a number of different angles, using different focal lengths, different apertures and different focus points, a shot would be taken only when the composition of the scene matches, to a predefined approximation, one of the numerous sets of compositional rules stored in the camera's computer.

Such an approach should yield a lot of promising images. But that would be only the starting point. A second program would ingest all the images, run them through Lightroom, and pass them to a Photoshop action set that would replace the sky with some dramatic clouds, remove ugly trees, warp the boulders, stretch some other elements, add some fog and lightnings, convert any running liquids into silky looking substances, and where appropriate, add vignettes and ragged borders. 

Using parallel processing concepts, one could let loose in a given shooting location a whole fleet of rovers that would be sending their harvest directly to a state-of-the-art factory in a faraway land equipped with image editing robots that would churn out millions of art prints.  Exciting possibilities!
Logged

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2015, 12:15:40 pm »

…selecting a frame is conducted entirely after the exposure(s) is/are made…

Which act of selecting?

"…worked all day, into the night, shooting around 500 pictures. Within a week, I received a check for the entire amount called for in my contract. But when the proofs were returned, the customer wanted only three 8x10 portaits."

Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2015, 03:18:58 pm »

Quote
While the remarks themselves are fine, the listicle format is not. Substituting randomly ordered bullet points for an organizing principle will be the death of our civilization.

The list is not bulleted but rather numbered.  I hate Bullets unless they're part of a sales brochure.  Do you ever get those executive summaries or list of issues about some subject with 15 bulleted points?  Then when you want to address one or more of them in response, you have to count the bullets down from the top.    The reasons bullets should be banned are:

  • Confusing to the reader
  • Confusing to the person answering
  • Confusing to observers

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2015, 08:37:13 pm »

Very funny, Alan!
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2015, 09:48:58 pm »

Such an approach should yield a lot of promising images. But that would be only the starting point. A second program would ingest all the images, run them through Lightroom, and pass them to a Photoshop action set that would replace the sky with some dramatic clouds, remove ugly trees, warp the boulders, stretch some other elements, add some fog and lightnings, convert any running liquids into silky looking substances, and where appropriate, add vignettes and ragged borders. 

Using parallel processing concepts, one could let loose in a given shooting location a whole fleet of rovers that would be sending their harvest directly to a state-of-the-art factory in a faraway land equipped with image editing robots that would churn out millions of art prints.  Exciting possibilities!

Ha! Ha! Ha! That scenario seems quite likely to me, Les. If it can be done, then why not do it. I'm reminded here of some of the issues raised in the recent thread, 'Why Photoshop is not Ruining Landscape Photography.'

For centuries painters and sculptors have struggled to accurately portray what the eye sees. Some of the Renaissance painters appeared to have used mirrors to project reflected images onto the canvas to assist in their creation of a realistic effect.

Along comes the camera, and skilled painters become dismayed at the ease with which a photographer can more accurately portray what the painter might struggle for days or weeks to produce. The painters, realising that they cannot compete with the camera, understandably turn to abstract or semi-abstract forms of painting such as Impressionism, Cubism, Pointillism, Minimalism etc.

Perhaps at some point in the future, the automatic manipulation of photographic imagery will become so sophisticated and commonplace that photographers who wish to be creative will have to return to abstract painting.

However, if software becomes so sophisticated in its automatic simulation of appealing natural effects, I imagine it would also be able to automate appealing abstract effects. Dear me!

Perhaps in the final analysis we'll just have to accept that the only issue that counts, with regards to 'art', is the degree of meaningfulness and the emotional impact that an image has on the viewer, regardless of the nature of the automated processes that produced the image and regardless of the degree of manipulation involved.

Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2015, 01:50:31 am »

Once, I asked a lady friend why she buys this very expensive wool and spends weeks knitting a sweater, when she could buy a perfectly knitted finished garment for half the price. She said, she liked knitting. So, despite all the advances in automation, I suspect that in my life time the hard-code shooters will still enjoy lugging their cameras over the most difficult terrain and make their own compositions, even at a risk of getting frostbitten, mauled by a bear, or occasionally forgetting to reset the ISO and shutter speed (which, of course would never happen with a camera on a rover).
  
On the other hand, addressing Allain's point of giving automated cameras same chances of success as self-driving cars, Elon Musk of Tesla recently stated that in not so distant future, human driving could be outlawed. So it is not inconceivable, that in a few years any documentary photography by tripod-wielding bipods will be banned, too. Now, that I think of it, some places have already started to impose ban on photographers. So, get that old Provia film out of the freezer and start shooting while you can.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 02:30:49 am by LesPalenik »
Logged

PeterAit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4559
    • Peter Aitken Photographs
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2015, 09:46:36 am »

Quote from Alain:
I get your point, Les, that Google has invented a driverless, robotic car. However, as far as I know, no-one has invented a functioning robotic camera in relation to composition choice, although I did outline the design for such a camera several years ago on this site.  ;)

I took my inspiration from the Mars Rover. It occurred to me that a similar, portable device could be designed purely for photography. It could be easily transported in the boot of the car when travelling to scenic locations one wanted to photograph.

The device would essentially be a small and very lightweight all-terrain vehicle, made of strong carbon-fibre plastic, housing sophisticated computer programs and literally hundreds of thousands of images of all the great art works of the past.

The integrated camera with zoom lens would be attached to a flexible arm which would automatically rise, fall and turn in any direction as the small vehicle negotiated the rough terrain in search of any scene which resembled the composition of one or more of the images of the great masterpieces stored in its computer.

One could program the rover to make a trip of a certain duration whilst one enjoyed lunch at the scenic location. One could examine the shots taken by the robot on its return to the starting point, and if not satisfied with the results, one could reprogram the device to set out again on a different route to take some more shots whilst one enjoyed one's dessert.  ;D


But the car would own the copyright and if you tried to use one of the photos a robotic lawyer would come after you  :D.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2015, 10:31:08 am »

But the car would own the copyright and if you tried to use one of the photos a robotic lawyer would come after you  :D.

Not a problem. If I own the car, I own its wheels, its camera, its computer and all its copyrights. Robots are our slaves. ;)
Logged

Eric Myrvaagnes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22814
  • http://myrvaagnes.com
    • http://myrvaagnes.com
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2015, 11:08:16 am »

Robots are our slaves. ;)
For the time being...    :D
Logged
-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2015, 04:36:33 am »

For the time being...    :D

Science Fiction nonsense, Eric.  ;D
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2015, 06:14:13 am »

Science Fiction nonsense, Eric.  ;D

Bill Gates and Elon Musk must know something what we don't, since they have real concerns

http://www.cnet.com/news/bill-gates-says-robots-represent-a-twin-threat/
Logged

Torbjörn Tapani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 319
Re:
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2015, 08:21:21 am »

If you have seen a flash crash in the stock market you start to wonder, are we really in charge?...
Logged

golfzilla

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2015, 09:07:40 pm »

"The goal of composition is to express your vision and your emotional response to the scene"

This may be a goal,  but the primary goal of composition it to get a viewer to appreciate your vision and emotional response to a scene. Without a viewer, the whole photographic enterprise is meaningless.
Logged

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2015, 05:43:01 am »

golfzilla,

Quote
...the primary goal of composition it to get a viewer to appreciate your vision and emotional response to a scene.

Perhaps Alain Briot subscribes to the view that a photographer should always shoot for him/herself.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2015, 11:59:37 am »

You can have both.  First you have to be able to express in a photograph your feelings, vision and beauty about a scene.  If your photo expresses these well, others will appreciate viewing the picture. 

When I compose and edit, I try to satisfy my own feelings about the shot.  I can't get into other people's head of what they like.  I'm not a pro so I don;t have to satisfy their requirements.  But if I'm happy about what I've done for myself, others will probably like it too.  So the answer is shoot and edit for yourself.

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2015, 12:20:38 pm »

Alan,

Quote
...if I'm happy about what I've done for myself, others will probably like it too.

Please explain how you can extrapolate the latter from the former.
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 07:16:04 am »

You can have both.  First you have to be able to express in a photograph your feelings, vision and beauty about a scene.  If your photo expresses these well, others will appreciate viewing the picture. 

When I compose and edit, I try to satisfy my own feelings about the shot.  I can't get into other people's head of what they like.  I'm not a pro so I don;t have to satisfy their requirements.  But if I'm happy about what I've done for myself, others will probably like it too.  So the answer is shoot and edit for yourself.

Well said. I fully concur.

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Fifteen Remarks on Composition
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 01:06:54 pm »

…but the primary goal of composition is…

Perhaps Alain Briot subscribes to a different art philosophy.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up