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Author Topic: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6  (Read 5200 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 11:48:40 AM »

Putting aside the ADC debate what is the cause of Soft Proof making black level previews change switching to ProPhotoRGB as a Soft Proof output profile in LR4.4?
There's no debate in my mind about ADC and further, LR4 is two versions old, I can't comment as I'm haven't had it installed in 3+ years.
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2015, 12:01:58 PM »

There's no debate in my mind about ADC and further, LR4 is two versions old, I can't comment as I'm haven't had it installed in 3+ years.

I'm sure the OP appreciates your opinions on the use of the ADC and not helping him with his problems as well.

Any other time wasting off topic comments you want to add douche bag?
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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2015, 12:07:56 PM »

I'm sure the OP appreciates your opinions on the use of the ADC and not helping him with his problems as well.
Nice of you to speak for the OP. I've added my suggestions to help the OP along with encouraging him not to waste his time with ADC of which at least two people here have done without commenting on it's odd and incorrect values.
Quote
Any other time wasting off topic comments you want to add douche bag?
Douche bag? What a immature and non useful comment to add on top of the other non useful posts you've made here Tim. You've painted yourself into a corner, you are now unable to retire gracefully.
The OP should probably download a modern version of Lightroom and test this again, of course avoiding the necessary use of ADC.
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Andrew Rodney
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2015, 01:29:57 PM »

I'm beginning to suspect that this might be the bug originally reported here: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1365804?start=0&tstart=0
and here: http://lagemaat.blogspot.no/2014/01/serious-color-management-bug-in-mac-os.html

Apparently turning on soft proof in Lightroom forces it to use the Adobe Color Engine instead of Apple's, so that made it go away. It was also reported to affect LUT profiles much more than matrix.

As for the bug itself, it is now fixed from both ends in both Lightroom and OS X recent versions.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2015, 03:24:43 PM »

I'm beginning to suspect that this might be the bug originally reported here: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1365804?start=0&tstart=0
and here: http://lagemaat.blogspot.no/2014/01/serious-color-management-bug-in-mac-os.html

Apparently turning on soft proof in Lightroom forces it to use the Adobe Color Engine instead of Apple's, so that made it go away. It was also reported to affect LUT profiles much more than matrix.

As for the bug itself, it is now fixed from both ends in both Lightroom and OS X recent versions.

Good find, D Fosse. That was helpful.

From inspection of sample images in those links it appears to be density variation between OS & LR versions because my black level change isn't as pronounced in LR4.4/Mac OS 10.6.8.

It would be interesting to learn the mechanics on how this happens within the hand off between LR, OS & ICC monitor profile. It appears to be different interpretations of the slope angle nearing black point within the internal gamma curve of the monitor profile and maybe a combination of LR's internal implementation of Soft Proof and/or mapping from its internal 1.0 gamma source space.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2015, 04:12:17 PM »

This thread needs to get back on track or it will get locked.  We have said numerous times there is no reason to be doing name calling.  If it persists you'll find you'll be locked out of the forums.  From what I can see Andrew who does know this stuff well tried to help the OP.  The OP is a few versions behind in LR and that would have been the first place I would have looked.  Many issues have been resolved with upgrades.  In the meantime there have also been OS upgrades.  Simple solution is to upgrade or try another RAW processor like C1 to see if the issue is persistent. 

So, let it be said if it comes to name calling your are warned.

Kevin Raber
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Kevin Raber
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2015, 04:17:40 PM »

I was right about replicating the same black level effect in Photoshop. See the attached .png screengrab with my embedded monitor profile that was not convert to sRGB.

I opened Murray David Sutton's "Print Density Tester" tiff file in ACR 6.7 set to output to 1.8 gamma ProPhotoRGB opened in Photoshop and converted to a simple matrix sRGB Gamma 1.0 ICC profile I made in PS Color Settings CustomRGB dialog box. Note the black level crushing that occurs.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2015, 04:21:42 PM »

This thread needs to get back on track or it will get locked.  We have said numerous times there is no reason to be doing name calling.  If it persists you'll find you'll be locked out of the forums.  From what I can see Andrew who does know this stuff well tried to help the OP.  The OP is a few versions behind in LR and that would have been the first place I would have looked.  Many issues have been resolved with upgrades.  In the meantime there have also been OS upgrades.  Simple solution is to upgrade or try another RAW processor like C1 to see if the issue is persistent. 

So, let it be said if it comes to name calling your are warned.

Kevin Raber

You're pretty quick to call out name calling when it's lobbed at Andrew, but not when Andrew does it to others. Why is that? I don't have a history of name calling but I'm really getting tired of Andrew's long winded off topic debates that waste so much time.

So, how many times have you spotted me name calling going the many years I've been contributing to this forum? I bet you can't count but this one. I'm glad you're really on top of it when I do it. I still stand by my opinion of Andrew. He is what he is by his behavior. And I have private messages from other pro photographers that share that opinion as well.
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2015, 04:59:06 PM »

And I have private messages from other pro photographers that share that opinion as well.

Well, you can have mine in public. I think that was uncalled for. You'd be hard pressed to see Andrew ever chasing red herrings, he usually stays on the mark. Which is what you tend to do when you know what you're talking about.

I've seen many discussions taking off on wild irrelevant tangents, and get totally lost in the fog. Let's not do that.

Mostly these problems have simple explanations and simple solutions if you know where to look. But every once in a while a real bug in software comes up, and then these threads can go on forever with nobody being able to explain what's happening. I think that's the case here - and in these cases updating is often the only right answer. That's what I think the OP should do.

That said, I almost got banned myself from this forum (not this subforum) a year or so ago. It was just something somebody said that rubbed me the wrong way, and I fired back without thinking. Before my brain started operating normally again, it was caught by a moderator. I had to eat it up, and I had no problems with that. These things happen.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2015, 05:24:11 PM »

Ok, the bottom line . . .  let's not do name calling, think before pushing the send post button.  I'd be the first to remind Andrew or anyone of that.  We are here to help each other and stay the course. 

Kevin
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Kevin Raber
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2015, 05:58:52 PM »

Well, you can have mine in public. I think that was uncalled for. You'd be hard pressed to see Andrew ever chasing red herrings, he usually stays on the mark. Which is what you tend to do when you know what you're talking about.

Apparently you haven't seen what I've seen here and on other photography related discussion sites.

Anyone can come across authoritative on any subject on the internet and be perceived as knowing what they're talking about. The proof of whether it's useful information is completely dependent on others that chime in and say "hey, that was useful, thanks", but we don't know how many and who they really are. Sock puppet maybe? Who knows.

I've seen that in many online discussions with a lot of knowledgeable folks, but they don't get in the habit of "stuffing/jamming" a thread making it hard to scroll through to get to useful information by endlessly debating on issues thinly related to the topic at hand as I've seen Andrew who spends a lot of time writing lengthy comebacks to argue, accuse and berate folks on trivial issues on digital imaging that are short on proof and evidence and long on theory or by simply rattling of some obscure info only he's privy but providing no links and using a condescending tone to boot with whom ever has a difference of opinion not just here on LuLa but on other sites like RetouchPro and Photo.net. Clearly he's not a cheerful giver but he spends a lot of time doing it.

Most of the time I just ignore him when he gets that way, but I'm trying to sort this black level issue out myself as well as offer some corroborating info. Getting down to the bottom of those Adobe discussion links you provided shows there's a fix for those with newer software than mine as well as whether GPU acceleration is enabled. That leaves me out for a fix except to use Soft Proof with matrix profile selected as Eric Chan suggests in this Photoshop Family discussion that is the most recent...

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom_5_icc_profiles_clipped_shadows_under_osx
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2015, 06:02:09 PM »

Ok, the bottom line . . .  let's not do name calling, think before pushing the send post button.  I'd be the first to remind Andrew or anyone of that.  We are here to help each other and stay the course. 

Kevin

Understood. Thanks for your patience with me and my flying off the handle. It's been long time since I've done that.
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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2015, 07:55:36 PM »

Understood. Thanks for your patience with me and my flying off the handle. It's been long time since I've done that.
Apology accepted...
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Andrew Rodney
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AoxoA

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Update Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2015, 10:25:11 PM »

I got a new calibration device (X-Rite i1 Display 3 / Pro (i1D3).  Therefore, I was able to upgrad the software to ColorNavigator 6 Version 6.4.9.20.  Went through the manual set up and used Version to 2.2 and tone curve to Gamma Value (matrix).

Now Lightroom 4, Photoshop CS6 and Preview are basically identical. I consider the problem solved.

Interestingly, it was Lightroom and Preview that changed the most with the new profile. I made two profiles (one with the default LUT and the other with changes to matrix, etc...).  I can switch between the two profile and observe the results.  Photoshop does have some shifts when going from LUT to Matrix but nowhere near as much as lightroom and Preview.  So, it seems that Photoshop was always the closest to a correct image display.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:29:40 PM by AoxoA »
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2015, 08:01:57 AM »

Thanks for reporting back. This is useful for future reference.

(BTW - yes, you can switch profiles on the fly in Colornavigator, but for Lr/PS to actually use that profile you need to relaunch the app. The profile is picked up at startup. IOW what you observe when you switch is just the change of correction tables in the monitor itself).
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