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Author Topic: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6  (Read 5205 times)

AoxoA

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Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« on: April 20, 2015, 11:39:19 PM »

Hello-

When I open a file to view in Photoshop the blacks are lighter (or the contrast is reduced).

1) This happens when I choose to edit file to Photoshop from Lightroom. The image in Photoshop looks different than in lightroom.  The blacks have more detail and seem to have less contrast in Photoshop.

2) If I export the original file from LR to a jpeg or tiff the file always matches what I see in lightroom (using Apple Preview to view the exported image).  If I save the original file to a jpeg or tiff from Photoshop and then view it with Apple’s Preview the file does not match the view in Photoshop.  It always matches what I see in Lightroom.

3) When I open a file in Photoshop and open it in Apple’s Preview.  Same thing.  The Photoshop view is lighter in the blacks with less contrast.

These are the things I checked:
•   I calibrated the monitor (V2 not V4).  Photoshop is accepting the calibration.
•   Lightroom and Photoshop use the same profile settings, etc.…
•   Same result doing a 1:1 in LR’s develop module and preview size 100% in Photoshop.

This is my system data:
•   Mac OS X 10.8.5
•   Lightroom 4.4.1 with Camera Raw 7.4
•   Photoshop CS6 Extended Version 13.0.6 x64 with Camera Raw 8.8.0.397

I am not sure if this post is in the correct section.  Thank you in advance for anything you can think of to help me get PS and LR to display images the same.
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 01:27:15 AM »

That's most likely a monitor profile issue. Lightroom and Photoshop should always display identically, if they don't that's usually the cause.

Set your calibrator to matrix-based profiles, not LUT (table)-based. LUT profiles are theoretically more accurate, but also heavier and more complex, and can cause problems.

If that doesn't do it, uncheck "compensate for scene-referred profiles" in Photoshop. That's an old bug in some calibrators that still comes up occasionally.

Also note that there's a long-standing bug in Photoshop, rendering blacks incorrectly in ProPhoto files, with GPU set at normal or advanced mode. Adobe RGB/sRGB are not affected. My own experience indicates that this too becomes more pronounced with LUT monitor profiles. Usually the bug appears as cyan/red shadow banding, but general black level can be affected too. This bug has been reported and discussed several times in the Adobe Photoshop forum, but is still unacknowledged.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:31:33 AM by D Fosse »
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 01:50:06 AM »

I did some more test and maybe it is some type of monitor profile issue.  I am using a Spyder2Pro as the calibration device.  I have a Eizo CG234W that uses ColorNavigator app to run the Spyder and set the profile. 

I used Apple's manual calibration to create a new display profile.  Although its just a test profile, so far everything is matching up very closely if not perfectly from LR to PS.

The ColorNavigator software doesn't have options for matrix vs LUT---at least not that i can find at the moment.  What device and software are you using for calibration?

Where will I find the check-box for  "compensate for scene-referred profiles" in Photoshop?

I am working in Prophoto color space.  I will run some test regarding that tomorrow.  Been at this all day and need to sleep.
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 03:33:06 AM »

The Spyder2 wasn't a very good sensor to begin with, and is certainly not suitable for a wide gamut unit such as the CG243. Get an i1 Display Pro, it's an investment you won't regret. Spyders 3 and 4 are much better, but the i1D3 is still the best.

In ColorNavigator, you'll see a "profile policies" button in the dialog where you get to name the profile. Here you set v2/v4, and LUT/matrix (attachment).

There's a checkbox for scene-referred profiles in Photoshop Color Settings. Some calibrators used to set this scene-referred flag when it shouldn't be there, but so far I haven't heard of ColorNavigator doing this.

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Simon Garrett

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2015, 04:06:19 AM »

In ColorNavigator, you'll see a "profile policies" button in the dialog where you get to name the profile. Here you set v2/v4, and LUT/matrix (attachment).

Also, I recommend not using v4 profiles - use v2 (or my version of ColorNavigator offers v2.2 or v4.2 - avoid v4.anything - it causes problems with some software, and might explain the one you're experiencing).

In my version of ColorNavigator, the choice of v2 or v4 profiles is well hidden.  When creating a new target, about the 6th screen is to name the adjustment target, and there's a "Customize profile" button.  Click that and you can choose v2.x or v4.x profiles. 

Whenever there are problems with profiles apparently behaving differently with different software, always check you're using a v2 profile, so eliminate that as a possible cause of the problem. 
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2015, 04:13:11 AM »

That's correct, Simon, and I would have mentioned it, except the OP already did that. Yeah, I constantly miss stuff in posts too.. ;D

(although if he caught the version rolldown, he should have caught the other one too. So let's get them all covered here).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:15:33 AM by D Fosse »
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2015, 04:41:12 AM »

That's correct, Simon, and I would have mentioned it, except the OP already did that. Yeah, I constantly miss stuff in posts too.. ;D

Doh!
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2015, 11:19:34 AM »

The Spyder2 wasn't a very good sensor to begin with, and is certainly not suitable for a wide gamut unit such as the CG243. Get an i1 Display Pro, it's an investment you won't regret. Spyders 3 and 4 are much better, but the i1D3 is still the best.

Quote
In ColorNavigator, you'll see a "profile policies" button in the dialog where you get to name the profile. Here you set v2/v4, and LUT/matrix

Quote
In my version of ColorNavigator, the choice of v2 or v4 profiles is well hidden.  When creating a new target, about the 6th screen is to name the adjustment target, and there's a "Customize profile" button.  Click that and you can choose v2.x or v4.x profiles.

Whenever there are problems with profiles apparently behaving differently with different software, always check you're using a v2 profile, so eliminate that as a possible cause of the problem.  ...recommend not using v4 profiles - use v2 (or my version of ColorNavigator offers v2.2 or v4.2 - avoid v4.anything - it causes problems with some software, and might explain the one you're experiencing).

Thanks for the advice. I will look into an i1D3 upgrade.

I don’t see a “profile policies” button.  I am using ColorNavigator Version 5.4.3(1).

I also do not see an option to choose V2 or V4.  The reason I said it was V2 is because Apple’s ColorSyc Utility app provides profil information and it says the Specification version is 2.2.0.


.
.

Here are the screen grabs of creating a new profile:





















Hold tight while I get some more info ready.......

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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2015, 12:00:02 PM »

The screen capture does indeed show a V2 profile so you're good there. I'd trash that profile and recalibrate, forcing a new one to be built, maybe restart, see if that helps. Can't hurt...
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Andrew Rodney
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 02:16:50 PM »

Thanks for the confirmation:  It is a V2.

I unchecked the "compensate for scene-referred profiles" box in Photoshop's Color Settings Dialog window.  Closed and re-opened PS but the issue remains.

I created a new profile/recalibration.

Here is a 5 minute video showing what I know so far.  You can change the quality setting to 1080p HD.

https://youtu.be/n4UqnnhEWqE
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:42:14 PM by AoxoA »
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2015, 03:31:25 PM »

I was about to say update to the current ColorNavigator 6. But apparently the Spyder2 is no longer supported, so you can't without buying a new sensor.

Could it be the Photoshop bug I mentioned? Have you tried disabling the GPU in Photoshop (or setting it to Basic mode)? Do you see the same in Adobe RGB/sRGB?

Or when you say "The blacks have more detail (...) in Photoshop" - maybe Photoshop is right and Lightroom is wrong? Are the blacks actually clipped in Lightroom? There was a long thread in the Adobe Lightroom forum about Lightroom clipping blacks in OS X while Photoshop was unaffected - but IIRC that was under Mavericks.
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 04:13:00 PM »

I was about to say update to the current ColorNavigator 6. But apparently the Spyder2 is no longer supported, so you can't without buying a new sensor.

Could it be the Photoshop bug I mentioned? Have you tried disabling the GPU in Photoshop (or setting it to Basic mode)? Do you see the same in Adobe RGB/sRGB?

Or when you say "The blacks have more detail (...) in Photoshop" - maybe Photoshop is right and Lightroom is wrong? Are the blacks actually clipped in Lightroom? There was a long thread in the Adobe Lightroom forum about Lightroom clipping blacks in OS X while Photoshop was unaffected - but IIRC that was under Mavericks.

“Have you tried disabling the GPU in Photoshop (or setting it to Basic mode)? “
•   Yes.  Same issue no matter how I set the Graphics Processor Settings.

“Do you see the same in Adobe RGB/sRGB?”
•   Yes.  I exported from lightroom to a Tiff with Adobe RGB.  Opened the file in PS and Appl’es Preview.  Same issue. 
•   Also opened an edit from lightroom to PS with ProPhoto RGB.  The Prophoto RGB and Adobe RGB in PS looked the same. 

“Or when you say "The blacks have more detail (...) in Photoshop" - maybe Photoshop is right and Lightroom is wrong? “

I don’t know:
•   If I open an sRGB JPEG file directly into each program (i.e. not export or edit in PS) – They do not match.
•   Same problem if I export to JPEG from lightroom and then open the file in PS
•   If I save the photo in PS, and then view it in LR, it matches the original LR version.
•   Apple’s Preview matches Lightroom
•   Photos in Firefox match Lightroom

“Are the blacks actually clipped in Lightroom? “
•   Not according to Lightroom’s histogram.  If there is black clipping it’s a little spot maybe 5% of the pic.  So I would say that is not it.
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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 04:15:47 PM »

Just to be clear, when you view an image in LR to compare to Photoshop, you're in Develop module and viewing at 1:1? The image in PS is at 100%?
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Andrew Rodney
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2015, 04:22:41 PM »

Just to be clear, when you view an image in LR to compare to Photoshop, you're in Develop module and viewing at 1:1? The image in PS is at 100%?

Yes, see vid  https://youtu.be/n4UqnnhEWqE
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2015, 04:26:22 PM »

Yes, see vid  https://youtu.be/n4UqnnhEWqE

In the vid I am actually in the Library module but I check going 1:1 in the develop module and it is the same.
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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 04:36:33 PM »

In the vid I am actually in the Library module but I check going 1:1 in the develop module and it is the same.
You MUST view in Develop module!
Also, go into Photoshop, Color Settings, RGB working space dropdown and examine at the top of the list, a setting called Monitor:XXX where XXX should be the display profile. Is it what you showed in the video?
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Andrew Rodney
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 04:44:13 PM »

You MUST view in Develop module!
Also, go into Photoshop, Color Settings, RGB working space dropdown and examine at the top of the list, a setting called Monitor:XXX where XXX should be the display profile. Is it what you showed in the video?

Yes, I checked 1:1 in LR Develop Module vs 100% view in PS.  ---Same Issue---

Yes, as shown in the vid, the RGB working space drop down has my newly created profile (Monitor:XXX...).

Could it be a different white point setting, etc?  I don't know how to check that.

Do I have compatible versions of Camera Raw and Lightroom?  Do my versions of Lr and ACR match?  Does it matter?  

I have
  • Lightroom 4.4.1 (with, I think, Camera Raw 7.4)
  • Photoshop CS6 Extended Version 13.0.6 x64 with Camera Raw 8.8.0.397

« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:46:06 PM by AoxoA »
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digitaldog

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 04:46:32 PM »

So you rebuilt a new profile right?
Restart?
Could try zapping the PRAM. Reboot, hold down Command key, Option Key, P and R key until you hear the Mac reboot again.
Lastly, providing a raw would be useful although it sounds like an issue with your system.
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Andrew Rodney
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AoxoA

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2015, 04:54:33 PM »

So you rebuilt a new profile right?
Restart?
Could try zapping the PRAM. Reboot, hold down Command key, Option Key, P and R key until you hear the Mac reboot again.
Lastly, providing a raw would be useful although it sounds like an issue with your system.

Yes.  Started fresh with a new profile.  I restarted the programs for sure and can't remember if I restarted the computer.

Ok, I'll do it.  The NEF is quite a bit different than the Tiff.  I have only been testing Tiff and JPEG.  I will take a look at some RAW files next.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:56:04 PM by AoxoA »
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D Fosse

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Re: Blacks in Lightroon 4 look different in Photoshop CS6
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 04:58:35 PM »

I looked at the video (without sound, though) and I'm fairly certain it's the display profile.

Notice that the Photoshop version has a distinct blue cast in the shadows - more so than being just "lighter".

A useful clue to determine which version is right, is to take screenshots and open them in Photoshop. If one of them has excessive clipping in one or more channels, particularly in the shadows, that's often the smoking gun. But this kind of photo is, to put it bluntly, basically useless since the shadows will be more or less clipped in the shadows anyway.

I'm itching to try a matrix profile instead of a LUT one. I assume that's what it is because it is the default in ColorNavigator 6. But if you don't have that option...
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