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Author Topic: Lessons from the Hudson River School  (Read 12559 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2015, 12:54:41 pm »

Your interest in painting and art hasn't helped you much in your photographic career..has it? ;)

It has. Tremendously.

stamper

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 01:03:52 pm »

Then why aren't better than you are? If you improve you might someday become a fine art photographer.  ;):(

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 01:27:20 pm »

I assume that was tongue in cheek. Fine.

For the benefit of newcomers (to photography and this forum) and some long-standing members (with short memory), there are three books I can not recommend strongly enough (the last two of which have nothing to do with photography, yet are highly useful for photographers):

1. Perception and Imaging: Photography--A Way of Seeing

2. Pictorial Composition

3. Picture This: How Pictures Work

Isaac

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 01:31:12 pm »

For some photographers a knowledge of art and art history may indeed help to improve their work,…

For example, photographers like Cartier-Bresson.
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amolitor

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2015, 01:34:09 pm »

There's lots of technique to be learned from these guys.

Look at the paintings provided in the original piece, you will find elements like this:

- repeated shapes and patterns EVERYWHERE, an object's shape might be echoed in the shape of a shadow, or another object
- masses of dark tones and light tones balanced and shaped carefully (ignore the objects, just look at the big masses of similar tone)
- inside the darker masses you find a dappling of light patches, and vice versa (look for shapes in those light/dark patches)
- an overall progression of tone from light to dark, usually from one corner to the opposite one, creating a sense of bigness and breadth, as well as an energetic diagonal thrust to the light
- lots and lots of atmosphere, details are suppressed as you get farther away, contrast drops off, to give a sense of depth and size

and so on. These are all specific, actionable, techniques to create a balanced frame (for beauty), with enough interest to be interesting, but enough unity and cohesion between the elements to feel like a coherent frame and, in the case of landscape, a sense of scale and size.

If you don't know the playbook, you'll have a hard time picking these and other elements out specifically. If you DO know they playbook, they leap off the page, and become much easier to add to your box of tricks.

Do you need more stuff in your box of tricks? I dunno, that's up to you.

It may be more useful to read about painting than to actually look at paintings.

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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2015, 01:46:43 pm »

For example, photographers like Cartier-Bresson.
Or, for example, photographers like Slobodan Blagojevic.

And me!   ;)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2015, 01:48:00 pm »

There's lots of technique to be learned from these guys.

Look at the paintings provided in the original piece, you will find elements like this:...

Fully in agreement, Andrew.

A lot of what you mentioned above can be found in the Gestalt principles of perception. A theoretical underpinning of that, as well as other perceptual techniques, one can find in the first book I mentioned in my previous post.

amolitor

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2015, 02:00:16 pm »

Another aspect of studying academic painting is that once you have a handle on the playbook, you can fool around with NOT following it.

If a gradation of tone from light to dark passing from upper left to lower right does one thing, what would the opposite look like? (what would "opposite" even mean?). With the camera you can experiment.

You don't have to be after sublime, beautiful, and mysterious, but knowing the cogs and gears that produce THAT, you may pick up some methods for doing other things along the way, simply by reversing parts of the method, or leaving parts out.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2015, 05:16:22 pm »

But not stamper ? ;-)
Maybe he would benefit, too, but the photos of his that I have seen are very fine as is, so he may be one of those that doesn't "need" to study paintings to find inspiration.

I don't think Edward Weston ever studied art history, but his own visual instincts were sufficient for his own photography, IMHO.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2015, 05:17:13 pm »

Another aspect of studying academic painting is that once you have a handle on the playbook, you can fool around with NOT following it.

If a gradation of tone from light to dark passing from upper left to lower right does one thing, what would the opposite look like? (what would "opposite" even mean?). With the camera you can experiment.

You don't have to be after sublime, beautiful, and mysterious, but knowing the cogs and gears that produce THAT, you may pick up some methods for doing other things along the way, simply by reversing parts of the method, or leaving parts out.

Very well put, Andrew.
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Isaac

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2015, 06:47:23 pm »

I don't think Edward Weston ever studied art history, but his own visual instincts were sufficient for his own photography, IMHO.

I wasn't there. I don't suppose Edward Weston remained unaware of the artistic developments of his time -- "… Weston and Mather had not worked in isolation, as many historians had previously thought. Rather they were part of a circle of avant-garde personalities who sought each other out for companionship and encouragement, and whose sphere of influence  encompassed … as well as the small but vigorous artistic community that existed in Los Angeles."

« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 07:42:52 pm by Isaac »
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Nelsonretreat

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2015, 07:37:56 pm »

Discourtesy doesn't disturb me. It just makes having a discussion that much less pleasant.
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amolitor

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2015, 07:46:44 pm »

Aren't you the fellow who wrote the essay including the courteous phrase "the crude lipstick of of Photoshop" to describe the work of people who make pictures differently from you?
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Isaac

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2015, 08:07:56 pm »

Discourtesy doesn't disturb me. It just makes having a discussion that much less pleasant.

I'm quite willing to hear your explanation of where "enhancement crosses a boundary into alteration". So far you have been unwilling to help us understand why you feel some things are OK but others are not. You seem unwilling to have a discussion.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 08:10:17 pm by Isaac »
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Ray

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2015, 08:52:19 pm »

The most illuminating quote for me in the article was,

"Unlike painters, we can not create the light needed for a particular image. Instead, we must wait for nature to cooperate and provide light that inspires us in some way. Cultivating patience, perseverance, and a developed awareness of light and its many qualities is an essential skill that always pays dividends."

This sentence captures the essence of what many photographers believe is important in what they do. Other writers on this site seem to believe that the light is added on the computer later to suit their 'vision' of what the scene should have looked like.

I love that you have let the landscape speak for itself and eschewed HDR techniques to even out the light. Your use of dark and shade is beautiful

Your images are truly masterful and to add a bonus you have not placed yourself as the 'artist' at the centre of the story. You let your craft with the camera in the field speak for itself and it is obvious you didn't need to spend hours reworking these images to 'create your vision'


The above statements needs clarification. Obviously a photographer can create light in the form of flash, or switching on other sources of artificial light. Whilst this is usually not effective for landscape photography because of the limited range of flash, it might sometimes be useful to illuminate shadows or dark objects in the near foreground of a landscape.

Alternatively, HDR is a perfectly legitimate method of creating more light because this is exactly what the eye does as it peruses a scene, with the pupil dilating and contracting according to the intensity of the light.

If the pupils of one's eyes (equivalent to a lens aperture) didn't dilate when shifting one's gaze from the foreground of a landscape to the bright clouds in the sky, one would feel very uncomfortable. The excessive brightness of the sky could hurt the eyes, and one probably wouldn't like the landscape at all.

When a so-called HDR effect is criticised for being unnatural, it's the processing skills and/or judgement of the photographer that deserve the criticism.

An example of this requirement for HDR would be the 'Twilight Wilderness' painting by Frederic Church, shown in the article. To photograph such a scene, one would be advised to bracket exposures and merge to HDR, otherwise that foreground would be unacceptably noisy, especially if a Canon camera were used (sorry! couldn't resist  ;D  ).

Even the scene depicted in the previous painting in the article, 'In the Wood' by Asher B Durand, could not be satisfactorily captured by a camera without using HDR techniques. Without HDR, either the blue sky would be blown, or the lower foreground would be unacceptably noisy.

Another very easy way to add (or subtract) light in a photograph is to select any area in the scene using the Lasso tool. After appropriately feathering the selection, one can lighten or darken the selected area according to taste, and without any unnatural effects.
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amolitor

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2015, 11:08:25 pm »

In the days of orthochromatic film, everyone used HDR methods for landscape. Even the stiff necked Emerson allowed that it might be ok if done properly. And he thought dodging was wicked and wrong.

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stamper

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2015, 03:33:17 am »

But not stamper ? ;-)

Someone's work has to have been on show somewhere before it can be liked or disliked. For someone to be thought as good or very good then a lot of their work has to be shown. Showing a theoretical knowledge of photography isn't enough to be thought of as good or very good. Isaac where do you fit in with regards to the above? :-\

stamper

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2015, 03:44:23 am »

I assume that was tongue in cheek. Fine.

For the benefit of newcomers (to photography and this forum) and some long-standing members (with short memory), there are three books I can not recommend strongly enough (the last two of which have nothing to do with photography, yet are highly useful for photographers):

1. Perception and Imaging: Photography--A Way of Seeing

2. Pictorial Composition

3. Picture This: How Pictures Work

Yes it was tongue in cheek. You have shown enough good work to be thought as a fine photographer unlike some who just talk about it. With regards to the links then I will have to have a rethink. I have the last book listed but didn't take to it so another read is in order. It has often been said that artists create shapes and lines within a frame purely using their imagination or surprisingly from photographs. A photographer has to frame something from reality and make a pleasing image from what he/she sees. Personally speaking an experienced photographer probably instinctively sees the shapes and lines without having to consciously think about it?  :)

quote Eric.

I don't think Edward Weston ever studied art history, but his own visual instincts were sufficient for his own photography, IMHO.

unquote

I think Eric has hit the nail on the head? Visual instincts are what it is all about?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 03:49:12 am by stamper »
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stamper

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2015, 03:52:38 am »

For example, photographers like Cartier-Bresson.

No disrespect to anyone who is in awe of him but I don't see the attraction. Studying his work may mean that somebody may end up copying him, or other well known photographers, rather than thinking for themselves?

amolitor

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Re: Lessons from the Hudson River School
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2015, 11:57:35 am »

Weston went to photography school, and worked in another chap's studio for quite some time.

That said, sure, there are degrees of natural instinct. Weston clearly had good instincts -- or perhaps the same thing, was good at absorbing what was important in the visual art that he saw. The author of the essay on the front page sees "leading lines" in Bierstadt's painting, and completely misses the fact that these "leading lines" are in fact just pieces of the great arabesque down the center of the frame which is, in fact, the critical design element in play here.

One imagines that Weston might have seen the arabesque immediately, and internalized that, where you or I might just see leading lines, and wind up internalizing irrelevancies. I would not have seen the arabesque without some knowledge of how these things are built.

Most of what gets dismissed as "well, you've either got it or you don't" is in fact fully teachable, though.
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