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Author Topic: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)  (Read 17406 times)

cyron123

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2015, 07:28:39 am »

Hello guys,
My Info is: the same management has ended the V series like the build of the tuned Sony cameras stellar.... Now it is no question for me the the end of production of the V-series is a other mistake too...

But this is my opinion.

My question to the new digital back is the sensor. In my opinion it is impossible to build and design a sensor for a small company. Brian has to use a sensor from the existing sensor.

If we want CMOS and full frame 645 this is impossible. Because this sensor does not exist...

If Brian use the Sony CMOS he have to pay the same price like Hassi or zzz P1. The price of the new back would be very similar to the competitor's  prices.

If we want a cheaper back we have to make some allowances to Brian.

My dream back is a 30-40 mpix back with a good LCD monitor to check 100%. One very good goodie would be life view to use it on a technical camera without ground glass.

One other possibility is to mod a Sony 7r to use it with wide angle lenses from Schneider or Rodie  Because if the focal flange distance. With a smaller chip but cheaper..

Cyron


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eronald

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2015, 11:29:53 am »

I'd expect the 50MP Sony CMOS sensors to cost around $800 in small batches.
The sensors used by Leica won't be available without  Leica's approval.

Edmund

« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 03:04:28 pm by eronald »
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Ken R

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2015, 11:49:01 am »

I'd expect the 50MP Sony CMOS sensors to cost around $800 in small batches.
The sensors used by Leica won't be available without  Leica's approval.

Edmund

My question to the new digital back is the sensor. In my opinion it is impossible to build and design a sensor for a small company. Brian has to use a sensor from the existing sensor.

If we want CMOS and full frame 645 this is impossible. Because this sensor does not exist...

If Brian use the Sony CMOS he have to pay the same price like Hassi or zzz P1. The price of the new back would be very similar to the competitor's  prices.

If we want a cheaper back we have to make some allowances to Brian.

My dream back is a 30-40 mpix back with a good LCD monitor to check 100%. One very good goodie would be life view to use it on a technical camera without ground glass.

One other possibility is to mod a Sony 7r to use it with wide angle lenses from Schneider or Rodie  Because if the focal flange distance. With a smaller chip but cheaper..

Cyron





My dream back is actually not a back but a A7R like medium format camera and a bunch of adapters so I can use basically any lens made. Cost? About $5k.
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2015, 04:09:54 am »

The sensors used by Leica won't be available without  Leica's approval.
I'm not sure that anyone would want to use them, sensor tech is not Leica's strong suit and they've always had to compensate with immaculate camera and lens design. Unless their "new" sensor blows the doors off on everyone's expectations, it would have been better to just go with the herd and commission Sony.
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JV

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2015, 08:23:45 am »

I'm not sure that anyone would want to use them, sensor tech is not Leica's strong suit and they've always had to compensate with immaculate camera and lens design. Unless their "new" sensor blows the doors off on everyone's expectations, it would have been better to just go with the herd and commission Sony.

It is a bit early to say that, isn't it...  Nobody has seen any output yet from the new S007 sensor.

I was looking at some sample images yesterday from the new Monochrome at ISO 12, 500 and they look very good IMO.  Also not a Sony sensor...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/leicarumors/sets/72157652274585121/
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cyron123

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New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2015, 04:13:21 pm »

Hello guys,
One more question:
Is it possible to use a Mamiya or a Hasselblad H or V interface? I think about rights patents that are at their companies...

Without a permission to build a Mamiya interface back for example from phase one. This is a problem. In my opinion those permissions could be very very high..

Cyron
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cyron123

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2015, 04:16:40 pm »

The other thing is: Brian only want to build a back for technical cameras... With this he need only the geometry not the electrical contacts and their protocol.
My 2cent...
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2015, 04:17:42 pm »

It is a bit early to say that, isn't it...  Nobody has seen any output yet from the new S007 sensor.

I'd have been more optimistic if the S was more reasonably priced, Phase and Hass can charge the prices they do because tech cam users have no other choice - yet. The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.

Quote
I was looking at some sample images yesterday from the new Monochrome at ISO 12, 500 and they look very good IMO.  Also not a Sony sensor...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/leicarumors/sets/72157652274585121/

Any sensor without a bayer filter over it is going to perform significantly better than with. The old monochrome punched well above its weight just because of that. I'm sure a monochrome 645Z would have immensely high sensitivity levels.
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JV

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2015, 09:39:25 am »

The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.

I am sure the Sony sensor is very good but for a lot of people other things like the photographic experience are just as important.

I have never used a Pentax 645Z, so I can't comment on that one, but in the 35mm and APS-C world the choice between Leica and Sony is, at least for me, an easy one, despite the sensor edge of Sony.

As always your mileage may vary.

Any sensor without a bayer filter over it is going to perform significantly better than with. The old monochrome punched well above its weight just because of that. I'm sure a monochrome 645Z would have immensely high sensitivity levels.

Again I am sure you are probably right but Leica did have the balls to release such a camera and most others up till now didn't... Credits to Phase One also for their Achromatic. 
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2015, 11:03:48 am »

I am sure the Sony sensor is very good but for a lot of people other things like the photographic experience are just as important.

I have never used a Pentax 645Z, so I can't comment on that one, but in the 35mm and APS-C world the choice between Leica and Sony is, at least for me, an easy one, despite the sensor edge of Sony.

Well, photographic experience is part of why I'm being so critical, I really wanted to own an S or CMOS-based successor, but I also do lots of technical photography where every bit of resolution and DR matters, which also made me consider an IQ180 in the past. Kind of a work vs. play moment. The 645Z is fun to use but it's also an inexpensive sensor-in-a-box for work.

Given the medium format camera prices, I doubt many buy these cameras for an experience unless they have lots of disposable income or their business is large enough that neither a $10K or $30K camera would significantly matter against other expenditures like hiring artists, transportation, lighting, studio rent and what have you.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 11:08:03 am by Kolor-Pikker »
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torger

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2015, 04:46:49 pm »

Interesting! I hope it will go well, but it's tough out there.

I think one of the best markets would be a fairly economical tech cam back, great enthusiast potential in a market where digibacks are unproportionally expensive compared to the rest of the hardware. I think lower cost backs could make several now shooting 35mm step up to MF. And there's no complex communication with body. Live view, color cast, sensor size are difficult technical challenges though which really can't be overcome by a small player, one must use the sensors that exist.

CCD is dying, so the Sony CMOS is the natural choice, but it's not the best for tech cameras due to color cast and crosstalk, but it sort of works anyway, maybe good enough? Look at how the CFV-50 is going.

Maybe there's a niche for something crazy like a 6x6 CCDs without rear screen that V-mount and Hy6 users would use. Custom-sized CCDs seems to be quite easy to get, but the price will be entirely different then.

I think the most realistic product would be something like the CFV-50 at say $7000. If it's a product similar to anything existing it must be cheaper I think, because it will be difficult to be better. Working live view is then a must since that is the reason why tech cam people can live with the color cast.

Megapixel will be important. It will be hard to sell a product that has lower pixel count than high res 35mm, regardless of quality of pixels or glass. I've just seen how hard the Canon 5Ds has hit the second hand MFDB market in the lower segments, and it's not even delivered yet.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 04:51:54 pm by torger »
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Manoli

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2015, 05:47:09 pm »

I've just seen how hard the Canon 5Ds has hit the second hand MFDB market in the lower segments, and it's not even delivered yet.

a few examples being ... ?
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douglevy

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2015, 07:02:01 pm »

You know...I have to say, I get way, way better color out of my CCD back then my D4/D810. At 200 ISO and below it's not even close. And above 400 ISO, I typically need faster frame rates than MF can provide anyway. To me, how I work, higher ISO w/o a faster (3-4fps min.) frame rate isn't worth a ton.

-Doug

Theodoros

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2015, 08:00:54 pm »

I'd have been more optimistic if the S was more reasonably priced, Phase and Hass can charge the prices they do because tech cam users have no other choice - yet. The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.

I believe that it is wrong to look at Leica S as an alternative to MF products only... IMO, S-007 is the only large sensor product that will appeal to FF DSLR users too... Surely the "like DSLR" design was already present at previous S-cameras, but S-007 adds to that characteristics that DSLRs are famous for (LL performance, fast frame rate, video etc...), if one adds that to the body design and takes the aspect ratio into account, there you are... Surely the price is not one to rave for, but again... Out of the millions of FF DSLR possible customers only a very small segment is enough to raise sales on what is unimaginable for the other MF makers...

I bet you that it will be a major success among the better of Wedding Pros all over the world... Especially since too many of them use Contax 645 with film for a good part of their work... It will allow them to share their lenses and reject their DSLRs altogether, yet improving further their prestige... Leica doesn't (obviously) care much for compatibility with tech or view cameras, they have Sinar now to do that... In fact it won't surprise me if they invest onto resurrect Contax as to "bridge" the two systems with common lenses, or if alternatively they buy Hasselblad to do the same...
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torger

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2015, 02:47:14 am »

a few examples being ... ?

The sales section... both here and in the local market in Sweden which I also monitor. Sales of sub 50MP backs are a bit slower now than they used to be. Could be some other reason, maybe simply that more people are selling. I'm selling a back at a good price, been out for a few months without finding a buyer yet. It's a small market so it's usually slow and I'm in no real hurry, but a year ago I'm quite sure it was not this slow. In the local Swedish market it's most Hasselblads that's selling, very good prices still out for a long time. I got my own Hassy on such a deal, so I enjoyed being in a buyers market. Now I'm experiencing from the other side when selling my other back.

To be really sure you need to file statistics and watch trends etc, which I really haven't done, so it could be my imagination I guess. I do think though that those that don't think there has been any change to the market during the last 12 months have greater imagination than mine.

However, I'm open for the suggestion that the Sony MF CMOS is the real culprit here rather than competition from the smaller formats (although I think it's a combination). I've seen many upgrade within Hassy to H5D-50c for example. The CMOS feature set is hard to resist. Few seem to talk about the "CCD look" any longer.

For this new digital back company these type of trends is something he need to be aware of and come to their own conclusions what the state is. Wishful thinking won't help.

Although I think a 6x6 CCD 40MP back withour rear display would be sellable, you couldn't sell in any large numbers, maybe 10 - 20 worldwide. To sell in large numbers and that way come down in price you need a fairly broad product. I think not using the Sony CMOS would be a great risk... but on the other hand it's difficult with the tech lenses which otherwise would be a key market... unfortunately I think there's currently technical borders in the way to make the optimal back. To me the old CCD CFV-50 with a focus checkable screen would be the current best, and I got a H4D-50 as an alternative (a little bit better screen). In all my discussions about this I've realized that I'm one of very few that appreciate this feature set. People think the CCD is too noisy, no live view and they make great sacrifices on movement flexibility to get that CMOS feature set.

So if I would have a digital back company I would want to make a back much like the CCD CFV-50 as that is what I would buy myself, but realize to sell it would have to look like the CMOS CFV-50c.

I think that Brian may be too early with his company, waiting a few years for the next CMOS generation may be better timing. If the next will work well with tech wide angles it's a no-brainer. For an economical back with no integration with modern MFD bodies (Hassy H and Phamiya) tech cameras must be a key market, and I think it's a good market because it has great enthusiast potential which I think is held back today with the unproportionally expensive digital backs.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 03:05:11 am by torger »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2015, 04:35:10 am »

I do think though that those that don't think there has been any change to the market during the last 12 months have greater imagination than mine.

I think it's a good market because it has great enthusiast potential which I think is held back today with the un-proportionally expensive digital backs.

Certainly the UK market is "sticky" in particular for Hasselblad, far fewer Phase backs appear on the market, I suppose it's the usual trade up and disappear scenario. The same camera stick around at the same prices until the owner has to sell then the price tumbles. I am not sad enough, as I am not in the trade, to collect hard data, but a genuine auction realises prices well below 12 moths ago for H3DII and H4 all backs included. A poster here listed a D450 at successively lower prices until it sold, so genuine sale easily checked.

On your second point I begin to wonder about that market, is it as big as we, me included, think? The prices now available are in the Leica M240 range, comfortably,  but the rush to buy isn't there. Causes? Less disposable income, "good enough" syndrome ( we are talking an enthusiast, non commercial, market) the rise of the DSLR pixel count and iso usability must be in the mix. In film days the MF advantage was clear, even at small sizes, in quality today in small sizes you would be pushed to guess 50/50, don' tell me MF sold on speed and handling  ;)
There is a market for those who don't want to be in the herd, including the wedding niche and the pros who really need a camera that the client doesn't own (often overlooked IMHO it's one of those factors we don't talk about much) after all Leica brought out the M-A all manual no meter, Ok so no commercial risk and development costs but it still needs stock space and cost as well as their monochromes, all niche products where the competition is practically zero. For me that's the market, niche products. Would a realistic in price MFDB monochrome run? Yes Phase did it but at a price where the market largely said "lovely idea" and moved swiftly on. The market I see getting the attention and growing, is as Torger and others note, the technical cameras, another niche. I don't think bottom fishing will give the returns many think is there targeting the niches is the answer, but then I've no money at risk and I'm sitting in my armchair waiting for the rain to ease off so I can drag my P20 off to the bluebells.
 
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torger

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2015, 06:36:56 am »

I may be romantic, but I'm thinking about those enthusiasts that shoot 4x5" view cameras for landscape photography. There seems to be a whole lot of them in the UK.

I asked a dealer in the UK which does view cameras and digital systems and my suspicion that enthusiast customer segment is growing was true there, an ever-increasing percentage of the customers are enthusiasts. I didn't ask if it meant that professionals are leaving or if the total market is growing. And yes economy was a strong factor among many customers, but not all. Some enthusiasts have the money to buy "the best", some may come looking for a digital tech cam system and end up using 4x5" film due to the high digital back cost.

Tech cams have movements and the large format style you can derive from that, that is what I would like to be the selling point and I think it is for a few. Unfortunately I see over and over again that the main selling point is not movements, it's resolving power and to be realistic that is what needs to be what the product provides. Equal(ish) resolving power plus movements probably won't sell enough.

Say a camera like Cambo Actus, plus live view digital back plus tech cam wides lenses without color cast issues could be a winner I'm sure, but sensor technology is not fully there yet. In Europe there's been some deals with CFV-50c + view camera + reasonable-wide package deals with lower price than seen before and now live view, if I was Brian I would try to look into how those are selling. CFV-50c on V-mount cameras I've heard is selling pretty well too, I have no idea which is the larger market. My guess is that on V-mount it's more about nostalgia than resolving power, and there the main CMOS win is that you can shoot hand-held in low light.
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Manoli

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2015, 12:40:58 pm »

Torger ( and Chris Livsey),

Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.

Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.

Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2015, 04:30:40 pm »

Hi,

The survey may have indicated that Brian plans to have a quite affordable price point on the new back. Obviously, a back can be made at a decent cost. The Pentax 645Z is almost affordable and it also includes an advanced MF camera.

A larger sensor will always offer some benefits. More photons collected and higher resolution.

Regarding the new high resolution 135 bodies, we have to wait and see. I would guess that the Canon 5Ds with excellent lenses will outperform 50 MP MFDs with not so good lenses. High end MFD with 80 MP and HR lenses will outperform anything 135 for sure.

The new Zeiss lenses for the Sony are very promising.

I guess that the competitive landscape got more complex.

I enclose a couple of actual pixel crops shot with my Sony Alpha 99 (24 MP) and a 25 year old Minolta Macro and my P45+ using a Hasselblad Macro Planar 120/4. Same image pair, different crops.

Best regards
Erik




Torger ( and Chris Livsey),

Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.

Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.

Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).


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Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

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Re: New medium format digital back company survey (please take)
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2015, 04:47:43 pm »

Torger ( and Chris Livsey),

Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.

Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.

Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).



Agree... LV is most important for pros to maximise their work (especially with view or tech cameras), comparing resolution or AOV is not as important to pros as having the job done efficiently. If MFDBs are to survive, the key words aren't resolution or sharpness, it is rather LV quality and to do what a smaller sensor can't do with it... That said, I would never have invested on my two MFDBs if they didn't offer multishot "true colour" ability... To me, having better "quality" than my D800E for single shot, is both useless and needless.... It doesn't improve on the photograph a bit... If a FF mirrorless will ever appear on the market with "true colour ability (either multishot or other), I'll buy it on the spot, fit it on a Cambo Actus and get rid of all my MF gear.

I didn't take Brian's survey, it was a decision of me to ...help (!!!) him. I believe that the survey is wrong, it rather asks what current consumers prefer than asking what possible users miss, IMO, a new product should target what people miss... The answer is there if one looks at the makers and their products... P1/Leaf & Sony backs offer nothing but better image over a FF sensor, Hassy offers multishot & LV via the same Sony sensor but only if one gets "married" to them... and Sinarbacks are unable to work untethered... So I guess the answer is there, but since I feel that a starter company will have great difficulties to start with a multishot back, I can see no space left that wouldn't provide an only temporary market appeal if one combines the rest of the individual advantages into one...
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