New medium format digital back company survey (please take)

[Brian Hirschfeld]

@gazwas certainly discussing what people want and use and why they want and use it is not off topic! And as @synn says and its something that I happen to believe is that more options are what we need. Its something that we had (well I guess still have) with film cameras, and have largely lost due to the "one camera must do everything" convergence. I think that in many situations this convergence is important and democratizing, but I also think that as the survey results have shown, people love specialized cameras like their film cameras, but want the convince of digital. 

[BobDavid]

With all due respect, Brian, I cannot help but think you are climbing an uphill battle or falling into a rabbit hole. I cannot imagine a profitable business model for a MFD start up ... perhaps I lack imagination. Do you have a release date set? Is there a beta version? There are a lot of interesting open source solutions out there--ranging from Phase/Mamiya to Hasselblad to Contax. The Pentax 645Z is a nice standalone package, Phase has great backs, and Hasselblad has two excellent open source bodies ... lest we forget to mention tech cameras, such as that nifty little Cambo Actus.

Another 800-pound gorilla in the room is Olympus's implementation of sensor-shift technology and Ricoh/Pentax's plan to develop a 35mm sensor-shift camera.

I wish you success and sincerely hope you and your angels are able to develop an innovative and competitive product. We are all watching with baited breath.

Final note: Have you thought about distribution channels? It's one thing to have a product, but it's as important, if not more, to have a network of dealers--VARs. As a former marketing consultant, I suggest you gather market intelligence to identify whether or not you will have buy-in from dealers.

I don't want to discourage your endeavor. However, I have seen a lot of businesses go belly up before product ever reached market. I witnessed a lot of carnage when the tech bubble popped.

[Brian Hirschfeld]

With all due respect, Brian, I cannot help but think you are climbing an uphill battle or falling into a rabbit hole. I cannot imagine a profitable business model for a MFD start up ... perhaps I lack imagination. Do you have a release date set? Is there a beta version? There are a lot of interesting open source solutions out there--ranging from Phase/Mamiya to Hasselblad to Contax. The Pentax 645Z is a nice standalone package, Phase has great backs, and Hasselblad has two excellent open source bodies ... lest we forget to mention tech cameras, such as that nifty little Cambo Actus.

Another 800-pound gorilla in the room is Olympus's implementation of sensor-shift technology and Ricoh/Pentax's plan to develop a 35mm sensor-shift camera.

I wish you success and sincerely hope you and your angels are able to develop an innovative and competitive product. We are all watching with baited breath.

Final note: Have you thought about distribution channels? It's one thing to have a product, but it's as important, if not more, to have a network of dealers--VARs. As a former marketing consultant, I suggest you gather market intelligence to identify whether or not you will have buy-in from dealers.

I don't want to discourage your endeavor. However, I have seen a lot of businesses go belly up before product ever reached market. I witnessed a lot of carnage when the tech bubble popped.

Yes, using open source camera systems is the way to go, that is what my product is going to be for. I feel that there is room for another MFDB player on the market because there are products that people want that do not exist. From all reports the Pentax 645z seems to be a great camera, however its biggest weakness is that it is not a removable MFDB.

My personal opinion on smaller formats is (obviously they are great, we all use them depending on the application) that they will never be able to replace physically lager (medium format) sensors and cameras.

[Theodoros]

I wonder what numbers do you think that a new "open system" camera body may be able to achieve... My impression is that "open system" stand alone MF DSLR bodies (i.e. Phamiya & Hasselblad H) sold annually as new, are not that many...

[Brian Hirschfeld]

Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion. My company is making a medium format digital back and not a medium format camera body. My Previous comment was meant to express that we are going to use existing "open" camera mounts like Contax etc. 

[Theodoros]

Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion. My company is making a medium format digital back and not a medium format camera body. My Previous comment was meant to express that we are going to use existing "open" camera mounts like Contax etc. 

Oh... Sorry Brian, my bad! I thought it was a camera + back combo... Well, I may as well tell you what I consider the best possible back for me would be...

My "dream" back would be the Dalsa 33mp chip, expanded to 54 x 40.5mm size for 41.5mp and able to shoot 16x multishot for 166mp in true colour but in a self contained version for single shot... Alternatively, if it was for CMOS, I would like the (same pixel pitch) Nikon 16.5mp FF sensor expended to the same size/resolution and (again) with a 16X multishot ability on it... Since these are not offered, I now settle on the closest alternative which is the Hassy CF-39MS for my Contax and have the Sinarback 54H for when 16x is needed.

P.S. Interchangeable mount plates is a very nice thing to have rather than having to change the back if one decides to change platform...

[drevil]

i also think that a business model might work well, which phase etc. are totally ignoring.......low MP entrance backs.

i think it would be still be very nice to have 20-40mp backs for quite a affordable price. i think much more people are interested to buy into MF than most think.
even now, with 50mp FF 35mm cameras appearing i think people would be still drawn to MF.

just my 2 cents

[gazwas]

i also think that a business model might work well, which phase etc. are totally ignoring.......low MP entrance backs.

i think it would be still be very nice to have 20-40mp backs for quite a affordable price. i think much more people are interested to buy into MF than most think.
even now, with 50mp FF 35mm cameras appearing i think people would be still drawn to MF.

just my 2 cents

+1

An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.

[Kolor-Pikker]

Realistically, I would probably try to undercut the competition by cutting features down to the bare minimum, while also focusing on high-end performance. A really nice sensor, a screen at least as good as on a recent DSLR, and snappy software with Raw histogram, all put in a cheap box. Since the 645Z is a fully featured camera, I feel a similarly-specced back should be much cheaper.

[ynp]

+1

An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.

+2 from my daughter and myself.


P.S. My daughter shoots weddings and some other stuff with a film Contax 654 and the Nikons. She adapted my old  Sinar eMotion 22 for her Contax and is looking for a Contax mount PhaseOne back because she hates the Sinar's software and loves the CaptureOne and PhaseOne look.

[cyron123]

Yes... This is absolutely right. This is my opinion too!!!

+1

An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.

[Theodoros]

A 54x40,5mm CMOS back with 41.5mp... Double DF's low light abilities, Double DF's IQ, fast enough for sports, dream back for view & tech cameras, I believe it sweeps the cards off the table. If followed be an MS version... game over!

What is missing? hmmm... a C645 resurrection! 

I believe if one looks on peoples responses, he should come down to the following conclusions (on that order):

1. What matters most for the majority of people is sensor size over resolution.
2. High quality LV performance is a crucial factor for investing on an MFDB.
3. Ability to use the back with extreme movements on view/tech cameras is required additionally to performance on DSLR bodies.
4. Considerable improvement on higher ISO quality is required.
5. Anything else that differentiates the back from competition and makes an additional purchase obsolete is welcomed (multishot ability, long exposures, video ability, interchangeable mount plates... etc).
6. Price

If a maker comes with such a back, I believe he will crush the market (and will give a new boost to MF). IMO, I can see no other (out of the current) maker able to come with such a back than Sinar... I believe that if Leica's new sensor (for the S007) technology, will pass on to new Sinarbacks (which is very possible since Sinar is a "family" company now) and thus, a back that will combine all the above is very possible indeed.

I don't say this to provoke Brian's plans, I only suggest that another company entering the MF digital market must consider not only current offerings, but future possibilities of offerings in addition.

[EricWHiss]

I've always wanted to see a big square sensor myself.  Brian I wish you luck!

[Theodoros]

I've always wanted to see a big square sensor myself.  Brian I wish you luck!

why? ...there are no more 6x6 camera bodies made out there! A back for old systems only? ...who would invest on loosing money?

[Brian Hirschfeld]

Thanks for the responses everyone, without giving too much away of what is to come, All I can say is that I think most of you will be very pleased with our initial product and I can definitely say that your input here and on the survey has helped to determine what (hopefully) our future roadmap will be in the future.

Responses to the survey have been absolutely fantastic and exceeded my personal expectations, both in terms of the quality and the quantity of responses. Because of the large number of responses I raised my personal goal for the number of responses, so if you haven't please take the survey! Thank you all again.

Best,
BH

[Chris Livsey]

why? ...there are no more 6x6 camera bodies made out there! A back for old systems only? ...who would invest on loosing money?

I have never seen an estimate of the number of "V" bodies produced in total but selling to a tiny fraction of that installed base should turn a profit. In fact Hasselblad seem to think so as well selling the CMOS back in that mount and even more amazing actually promoting it.

[Theodoros]

I have never seen an estimate of the number of "V" bodies produced in total but selling to a tiny fraction of that installed base should turn a profit. In fact Hasselblad seem to think so as well selling the CMOS back in that mount and even more amazing actually promoting it.

Interesting POV... I wonder what is the percentage of backs sold for V bodies annually.... what was it last year?

[wnichols]

Just filled out for you -

Very interested to see what you may be developing.

[Joe Towner]

Interesting POV... I wonder what is the percentage of backs sold for V bodies annually.... what was it last year?

I think the more interesting number is the number of new IQ backs with V mounts being sold.  Hass knows there is a market for the V back, otherwise Phase would end their support as well.

The base information that DT/CI have as to sales numbers breakdowns would be fun to work with.  H/V/Contax numbers compared to Mamiya numbers, plus trending over upgrades across a decade.

[Theodoros]

I think the more interesting number is the number of new IQ backs with V mounts being sold.  Hass knows there is a market for the V back, otherwise Phase would end their support as well.

The base information that DT/CI have as to sales numbers breakdowns would be fun to work with.  H/V/Contax numbers compared to Mamiya numbers, plus trending over upgrades across a decade.

There is no doubt that you are right, I absolutely agree with you. My reply on which you quoted wasn't to suggest that there aren't enough V mount backs made, but rather to question the future of a big sensor square back that would only be able to be used on 6x6 or larger image area cameras that others suggested... I believe that such a decision for a new company would be a financial disaster, since there would be (most probably cheaper) competition for only a much smaller section of the whole MFDB possible market which is based on 6x4.5 cameras.