Deutsche Börse Prize 2015 nominees announced

[Diego Pigozzo]

I agree with him. What's interesting about those photographs, apart from a story about the people?

Jeremy

What's interesting about Migrant Mother, apart from a story about the portraited woman?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

What's interesting about Migrant Mother, apart from a story about the portraited woman?

Your ignorance of photography on full display once again.

[Diego Pigozzo]

Your ignorance of photography on full display once again.

If you're so learned, can you answer the question?
(I'm not holding my breath on this....)

...Still no answer... how strange....


...Look... no answer....

...please...stop... no more answer, please.... I can't take anymore....


...really, stop answering!!!!

[mezzoduomo]

What's interesting about Migrant Mother, apart from a story about the portraited woman?

Surely you can't be serious. Today is April 8, not April 1.

[Diego Pigozzo]

Surely you can't be serious. Today is April 8, not April 1.

Of course I'm not serious: in "Migrant Mother" the story behind the woman and the socioeconomical situation of the time is as much important as the "photographic qualities" of the shot itself.
But since someone think that the story behind the people and the "political statement" of a shot is of no importance, I asked the question about the "Migrant Mother" shot.

[spidermike]

Of course I'm not serious: in "Migrant Mother" the story behind the woman and the socioeconomical situation of the time is as much important as the "photographic qualities" of the shot itself.
But since someone think that the story behind the people and the "political statement" of a shot is of no importance, I asked the question about the "Migrant Mother" shot.

But the quality of 'Migrant mother' is that the photo tells its own story. The context of the Depression adds to it and the photo shows the effects of the Depression.
For me, the DB photos they are simply portraits. Even knowing they are of discriminated people adds nothing other than knowing they are discriminated against and the photos show nothing about the impact of that discrimination. Which is why I find them quite uneventful

[Diego Pigozzo]

But the quality of 'Migrant mother' is that the photo tells its own story. The context of the Depression adds to it and the photo shows the effects of the Depression.
For me, the DB photos they are simply portraits. Even knowing they are of discriminated people adds nothing other than knowing they are discriminated against and the photos show nothing about the impact of that discrimination. Which is why I find them quite uneventful

Try to remove all you know about the "Migrant Mother" context: what's the story the photo is telling?
I think that, devoid of context, "Migrant Mother" is just a woman's portrait.

[spidermike]

Without knowing anything about the photograph when I first saw it I realised it was about poverty and the impact it has on people - the kids as well the mother. Knowing it was about a migrant in the Depression era added a context to it and knowing its full story added a poignancy to it, but without the story within the photograph even the knowledge of its background would be meaningless. I believe that when it was first printed at the time of the Depression that not even that caption would have been needed because people would have innately known what it was.

I look at the DB photos and I think '6 decent potraits'.
I look at the aims of DB

aims to reward a contemporary photographer of any nationality, who has made the most significant contribution (exhibition or publication) to the medium of photography in Europe in the previous year.

and I think 'what contribution is being made here'. I have no idea.
I then read what the photos are about and I think 'what does this photo tell me about being a discriminated gay person?'.
And the answer is 'nothing'.
And maybe the point is 'gays are people too' but unfortunately it strikes me more of looking at a gallery of victim photographs you see on the noticeboards in a cop show. Maybe that is the point but it has taken me a long time to get there, and I wonder 'has the DB photograph failed'. Or am I now supposed to look at any portrait and immediately start to imagine what horrors have befallen that person. 

[Diego Pigozzo]

Without knowing anything about the photograph when I first saw it I realised it was about poverty and the impact it has on people - the kids as well the mother.

How do you know that poverty is involved?
Couldn't they be just refusing any kind of modern comfort?
One can say that "refusing any kind of modern comfort" equates to poverty, but may not be what is felt but someone making that kind of choice.
What led to think about poverty?

Knowing it was about a migrant in the Depression era added a context to it and knowing its full story added a poignancy to it, but without the story within the photograph even the knowledge of its background would be meaningless. I believe that when it was first printed at the time of the Depression that not even that caption would have been needed because people would have innately known what it was.

Of course no caption was needed: depression was an everyday reality.

I look at the DB photos and I think '6 decent potraits'.
I look at the aims of DB and I think 'what contribution is being made here'. I have no idea.
I then read what the photos are about and I think 'what does this photo tell me about being a discriminated gay person?'.
And the answer is 'nothing'.

Doesn't the look of their eyes tell you anything?

[spidermike]

What led to think about poverty?

It just did. I can't explain it. Maybe it was a 'lucky hit'. Or maybe the photograph is so good it tells its own story and because you saw the caption when you first saw it, you are assuming that it is not posible to know the context without the caption.

Doesn't the look of their eyes tell you anything?

Nope.
I coudl equally ask whether you reading things into the eyes because, knowing the background to the photos, you want the eyes to be telling you something because to do so is profound. A sort of confirmation bias.

[Diego Pigozzo]

It just did. I can't explain it. Maybe it was a 'lucky hit'. Or maybe the photograph is so good it tells its own story and because you saw the caption when you first saw it, you are assuming that it is not posible to know the context without the caption.

Could it be that you thought because of your cultural background (which is common to most of us, by the way)?
What I means is that I suspect that many of the thing one see in this and other photos is not in the photo itself but in the viewer.

Nope.
I coudl equally ask whether you reading things into the eyes because, knowing the background to the photos, you want the eyes to be telling you something because to do so is profound. A sort of confirmation bias.

Maybe, or maybe different people have different sensibilities and see interpret the same expression in different ways.

[spidermike]

Both are fair points, Diego.
If I was from a poor area of Africa I may have looked at Migrant Mother and thought 'she's rich she can afford clothes'. But the photo was intended for an audience from her own society and the photographer to my mind did what she had to do to get the message across to the intended audience.

And that for me is where the DB photos fail to engage me. There is no indication in the photos themselves of who the person is or their backgrounds for a narrative to start. Even knowing they are discriminated people there is no narrative in the photo of what that persecution means to them and no point of empathy. I need to force one on what is a series of good quality portraits.

But (and this has just struck me) maybe the power of those particular photos is in the context of a book of 365 photos and abstracting them as 7 shots is doing them an injustice and the book has more context.
Or it comes back to a comment earlier in the thread that the real message is one of political activism - not the photos themselves but someone exploiting the subjects to make their own political point. And tht fact we are discussing it means it has succeeded after all. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Here's a thought - maybe it's because what they are depicting is currently important.

Let's see what's been going on in the world that is apparently less important:

- carnage of children and civilians in the Middle East
- unspeakable, barbaric, medieval atrocities in the Middle East, Asia and Africa
- school girls kidnapped en masse and turned into soldier brides
- children turned into soldiers
- students executed en masse for their religion
- believers attacked in their churches
- terrorist attack in the heart of the civilized world
- the cradle of civilization on its knees, denied a bailout by the recipient of the largest bailout in history, which once occupied it and looted it
- 85 richest people in the world have more wealth than the 50% of the world

But hey, what's all that compared to:

- a little trouble in the "backdoor paradise"

[elliot_n]

Let's see what's been going on in the world that is apparently less important:

- carnage of children and civilians in the Middle East
- unspeakable, barbaric, medieval atrocities in the Middle East, Asia and Africa
- school girls kidnapped en masse and turned into soldier brides
- children turned into soldiers
- students executed en masse for their religion
- believers attacked in their churches
- terrorist attack in the heart of the civilized world
- the cradle of civilization on its knees, denied a bailout by the recipient of the largest bailout in history, which once occupied it and looted it
- 85 richest people in the world have more wealth than the 50% of the world

But hey, what's all that compared to:

- a little trouble in the "backdoor paradise"

And the practice of 'curative rape' - 'a hate crime intended to 'convert’ lesbians to heterosexuality' - is not worth reporting?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

And the practice of 'curative rape' - 'a hate crime intended to 'convert’ lesbians to heterosexuality' - is not worth reporting?

Non sequitur.

[elliot_n]

Non sequitur.

Huh? Curative rape is one of the issues raised in the photo series we are discussing. You seem to be dismissing it ('a little trouble in the "backdoor paradise"').

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Huh?..

Non sequitur, used in the context, meant that nobody said such a thing is not worth reporting.

However, we are not talking about newsworthy or not (it is), we are not talking about the Pulitzer Prize (for journalism writing), we are talking about "the most significant contribution ... to the medium of photography." And even if we are talking about newsworthy, we would be talking about ranking in terms of world-wide importance. In such a case, even a relatively minor issue in terms of importance (and I am not suggesting that the example you mentioned is trivial) would merit a prize IF it is done in a photographically impressive manner. To give you an example, look at the Eugene Smith's Minamata image. It was a documentary about industrial poisoning in a particular Japanese region, but it survived in the history of art on the strength of photographic expression, not the strength of the cause.

[spidermike]

it survived in the history of art on the strength of photographic expression, not the strength of the cause.

I wish I could have put it so succinctly.

[elliot_n]

There's no doubting the strength of Gene Smith's photographic expression. But I think Zanele Muholi is having a good crack at it too. Here's a film about her:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aiufq04dp0

[NancyP]

OK folks.

I think that it is clear that the mere act of doing formal portraiture of this population is the novelty. There's no technical innovation. The portraits are low-key, allowing the subjects to present themselves, instead of being directed to pose on a fantasy set a la Kehinde Wiley.

Let's have OTHER nominations.

I think it may be impossible to separate one's knowledge of a photograph's documentary (news) importance from the esthetic importance.

I am not sure what the prize should represent. It strikes me that contributions to the medium of photography could be technical, could be within a specialized domain such as scientific photography or commercial photography, could be in representations of neglected subjects, could be in unique style.