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Author Topic: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!  (Read 91786 times)

ajz

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M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« on: April 02, 2015, 05:42:26 pm »

Once in a while I pull out either of the two above cameras and shoot film - love it. I can print on my 3800 to 13 x 19. I have been getting conflicting advice from the camera shop that process the film as to the best resolution at which to scan the 35mm and the 120 film negatives in order to get at least 16 x 20 prints at 300dpi as a minimum.

Should it best be 300dpi x the 20" length? Or, is this excessive?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated...

ajz

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Paul Roark

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 10:58:01 am »

With my film scanner, I always use the top optical resolution of the scanner for any serious work.  You might also consider using multi-sampling/scanning to reduce the electronic noise.

That second lens in the image path is always going to reduce the quality of your image.  It's a major reason to go direct to digital.   A top quality drum scan may be the only way to get most of the information out of those negatives.  That said, my Nikon 8000 does a reasonably good job.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 11:48:34 am »

With my film scanner, I always use the top optical resolution of the scanner for any serious work.  You might also consider using multi-sampling/scanning to reduce the electronic noise.

That second lens in the image path is always going to reduce the quality of your image.  It's a major reason to go direct to digital.   A top quality drum scan may be the only way to get most of the information out of those negatives.  That said, my Nikon 8000 does a reasonably good job.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I did a test recently where I scanned a negative on a drum scanner and an Imacon 949, but also on a Epson V750. You can see the difference here http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/scanner/scan-compare.html
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ajz

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 03:28:21 pm »

Very much appreciate both of your comments... I will look into it - thanks.

ajz
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Paul Roark

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 11:10:39 am »

That's an interesting scan comparison.  The drum v. Canon film scanner reminds me of the comparison of a point source enlarger v. a diffusion head.  The drum definitely has the sharpness edge (one needs to download the images and equalize the resolution to see clearly), but when it comes to overall signal to noise ration and which is more pleasing, the film scanner looks like the top choice to me.

I have never used a drum, but I take it from what I've read that there are adjustments of aperture size (?) that might affect the extent to which grain is rendered.  I, personally, went the film scanner route, in part based on cost, but also based on tests I'd seen.  In the wet darkroom I also went with diffusion over point source or condenser enlargers.

As an aside but related observation, I used to process my 100 ISO film with dilute Microdol-X and relatively long periods between agitation.  This made for sharper prints under the enlarger.  (I actually used Tech Pan the most, and it has different issues.)  Now, scanning those 100 ISO films and having Photoshop digital sharpening (and noise reduction) tools available, I wish I'd developed my film for lower grain, accepting the realities of lower sharpness under the enlarger.  I find it easier to sharpen in PS than to reduce grain.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2015, 11:48:25 am »

I find it easier to sharpen in PS than to reduce grain.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Do agree on that. Right now I create a new layer, make an edge mask to protect finer details on that layer, and then open that layer in Camera Raw and use the noise reduction in Camera Raw. I find the noise reduction algoritms in Camera Raw superior to most filters that I have tested.
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Dave Gurtcheff

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 04:48:20 pm »

Do agree on that. Right now I create a new layer, make an edge mask to protect finer details on that layer, and then open that layer in Camera Raw and use the noise reduction in Camera Raw. I find the noise reduction algoritms in Camera Raw superior to most filters that I have tested.

I recently recovered my father's negatives that were lost for 72 years. All were shot with a Zeiss Super Ikonta "A", with 70mm f3.5 Zeiss Tessar lens (uncoated). 645 size negatives, 225 rolls, 16 per roll, all developed by my father before he died accidentally in May, 1940 at age 29 (I was three). I have been working for almost two years scanning on a Nikon 8000 and printing, mounting and framing prints up to 24"x32" for a two man show in June. Photokit Sharpener 2 is a god send for me. It has a module for capture sharpening where you can select 6x6 B&W negative film. After using capture sharpening, I then resized to final print dimensions, and applied Photokit output sharpening. The prints are wonderful. If you are curious to see my father's work from 1935 to 1940, go to my web site and look at the page "ALEXANDER GURTCHEFF". Amazingly, if you then look at my B&W page, you will have a tough time deciding whose images are whose! And I never saw the negatives until two years ago.
my web site:
www.modernpictorials.com

Best regards to all.....
Dave in NJ
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 05:08:46 am »

Beautiful images. Texture, composition, contrast. Must be very rewarding to bring your father's images to the digital age.

I have been using 6x6 and 6x9 folder cameras in the transfer period between 35mm film reflex cameras to a Canon 5D II digital SLR.  Scanning the large negatives is much more rewarding than scanning 35mm frames. The folders fitted my coat pocket. Even with the Canon around I used them, used the last 120 film about a year ago. For scanning I also use a Nikon 8000 but like the results of the Epson V700 as well. Wet mounting the negatives in both cases. Scan with Vuescan, export as RAW DNG (which is actually a Tiff in this case without any Vuescan influences but the the tone range inversed to positive), develop further in Photoshop ACR. Deconvolution sharpening. Reduce the grain (Tri-X etc in Rodinal 1:50) to half with Neat Image in Photoshop and do the last edits also there. Print with Qimage Ultimate with its nice resampling and smart print sharpening routines. I do not aim at low grain with the film and developer choices, the Rodinal can be stored for long periods and I find it more convenient to develop with a Jobo Autolab. I also overexpose for more shadow detail, see below.

The Epson V700 reduces the grain more by its oversampling than the Nikon does and the Nikon blows out shadow detail in some images, probably because the wet mounting improves the light transmission too much. Vuescan allows me to select just the green or blue LEDS on the Nikon for B&W scans and can alter sample exposure time but even then on thin negatives (usually not mine) the shadow detail is compromised. For color negatives etc it is the better scanner though.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots



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Herbc

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 08:25:40 am »

He did beautiful work.  I really regret losing all my earlier work from the 1940's and 50's. :'(
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Misirlou

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 04:46:40 pm »

Man, every time I read about one of these recovered photo stories, I know I'm going to spend a lot of time looking. I just love these things.
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Dave Gurtcheff

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 05:19:53 pm »

Thanks for the kind words about my Father's work. Recovering his lost negatives after 72 years is a blessing to our family. I was only three when he died, so I do not remember him. Printing his negatives, dodging and burning as he would have done, gives me great pleasure.

Like Ernst, I use Vuescan with the Nikon 8000. It allows multiple passes and multi exposure (supposedly to enhance shadow detail). I was lucky to find on ebay an 8000 with the very hard to find glass negative carrier for medium format roll film. Now get this: before I made my first scan, I sat on the carrier and broke the glass. To the rescue: there is a supplier in Florida who can supply 100% replica replacement glasses, the top glass being special anti Newton Ring Glass. It was affordable. All is well.
Best regards
Dave Gurtcheff
Beach Haven, NJ
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pfigen

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Re: M6 & Rolleiflex 2.8E to Digital!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2015, 03:08:29 am »

Most film doesn't benefit from scanning over 4000 ppi, but some films with very sharp lenses and images shot with impeccable technique can benefit from higher resolutions. Unfortunately, more pixels doesn't always equal higher resolution. There are only two scanners I'm aware of that can actually come close to 8000 ppi in the scan - an ICG and a Howtek/Aztek 8000, both of which use a 3micron aperture to determine the resolution. The Heidelberg drum scanners, which were designed for prepress and not necessarily for fine art, use somewhere around a 10 micron aperture, which effectively limits the maximum resolution, regardless of what you think you're getting.

In addition, drum scanners, when you're at the upper end of the resolution ladder, generally jump - and this is for the Howtek for sure - from 8000 ppi down to the next step at 4000 ppi, then down to 2667 and then to 2000. ICG's number will be slightly different depending on the specific apertures they use, but the principle is the same. When the scanner "sees" the film through a hole that is 3.175 microns in diameter effectively - well, multiply that by  8000 and you arrive at 25.4 mm. That's how you get your 8000 ppi. Any drum scanner that uses a larger aperture can make finer increments in the stepper motor to get the steps in one direction, but is still interpolating in the other. That's why the Heidelbergs max out around 5000 ppi in real world tests and the Howtek/Aztek can hit the mid 7000's.

Now, the films that can actually take advantage of that are things like T-Max 100, Kodachrome 25, Technical Pan and maybe a well shot Velvia 50, and even then only when shot under optimum conditions. For the rest 4000 is more than enough and for color negs, generally far less than that. But that's a whole 'nuther discussion. And we haven't even talked about tonality at all yet.
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