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Author Topic: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea  (Read 2550 times)

Michael Erlewine

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Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« on: April 02, 2015, 04:00:26 am »

My struggle with stacking focus has been going on for years. Lately, mostly because of the advent of the new Zeiss Otus series of apochromatic lenses, I have segued into deciding should I stack at all. What I have been doing recently is stacking photos at a wide-open (and fast) aperture and, after the stack, I also take a separate traditional single-shot photo at the highest aperture I can get away with. I compare the two results, the stacked image and the single-shot photo. The results are fascinating and somewhat disturbing.

Before I sing whatever praises I may have of focus-stacking, let me explain what I find disturbing about this comparison. For one, unfortunately the process of stacking images alters the color in the image somewhat and I find it very difficult to match that color later in post. Until I started taking (along with a stack) a single-shot photo at high apertures, I was mostly unaware of the differences between the two because I am not in the habit of developing the stacked-layers before I stack them, but only the final stacked image. In other words, I seldom see what the developed layers for a stack look like compared to the final stacked image because I never develop them.

Aside from a color-shift between the stacked and none-stacked photos in the comparison, the single-shot image also seems to have more luminance. Another effect (I may be imagining) is that the stacked shot has more trouble softening reflective-light (highlights) resulting in a bit of unwanted (and unneeded) contrast. The resulting effect is that the stacked image is a little crude or harsh compared to the traditional single-shot photo.

As for the merits of the stacked image, with it I am better able to control what is in focus and what is bokeh. That is the advantage of focus stacking. And most of all, by stacking at low apertures, I can keep the subject in sharp focus while having the background be whatever I want it to be, like a lovely bokeh. I can’t do that with a single-shot photo at high apertures because the increased depth of field also overwrites any sense of bokeh that is present, so, once again, there is no free lunch.

One compromise I could try is to take a single shot photo at high aperture and a second shot wide open and paint in the bokeh background from the second shot into the first in post. However, I don’t like the artificiality of this approach, not to mention the endless retouching it brings into play. I do enough retouching with stacked images as it is.

In summary, I feel I have pretty much explored the possibilities of shooting at low and high apertures, stacked or not-stacked. Perhaps this exercise could be more conveniently described as developing my technique. In that case, after all these years consider my technique more-or-less developed. Perhaps I am finally ready to take some photos.

Here is a stacked photo and a single shot photo taken at a high aperture. Note that the stacked one has a slightly more limited view because the stacking process, especially on a focus rail (as this one), restricts what is in frame. Notice the loss of contrast in the stacked image. It is also less bright. I know. I am probably splitting hairs here.

My takeaway so far is that I will be taking more single-shot photos going forward. However, as this separate stacked photo demonstrates, I also will continue stacking. Stackers out there, what are your thoughts and your experience with this conundrum?


Nikond D810, CRT Nikkor-O lens, Zerene Stacker
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 05:51:50 am »

For one, unfortunately the process of stacking images alters the color in the image somewhat and I find it very difficult to match that color later in post.

Hi Michael,

I use Helicon Focus for stacking, so maybe there are some differences in results due to that, but it is known that the different stacking algorithms have different effects on color and contrast. HF offers a choice between 3 methods (similar to the ones ZereneStacker uses) which can handle different issues, but method A tends to preserve color best, followed by method B and then method C. I try to use method A when possible, but sometimes the edges produce artifacts which another method handles better. It then is rather simple to combine two rendered stacks, and combine the best parts, one for the surface colors and one for some of the edges/occlusions.

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Aside from a color-shift between the stacked and none-stacked photos in the comparison, the single-shot image also seems to have more luminance. Another effect (I may be imagining) is that the stacked shot has more trouble softening reflective-light (highlights) resulting in a bit of unwanted (and unneeded) contrast. The resulting effect is that the stacked image is a little crude or harsh compared to the traditional single-shot photo.

This may be related to the fact that you are using a camera without optical low-pass filter (OLPF), and since there is no defocus blur in the in-focus stacked slices, the resulting aliasing may give the harsh look. I assume that Topaz Detail (which is great in modifying multiple detail sizes and can do wonders on macro shots) might be able to take a bit of that away. Also you method of downsampling will make a difference, but I assume you are taking about full size images now.

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As for the merits of the stacked image, with it I am better able to control what is in focus and what is bokeh.

I agree, and it's hugely underestimated by many that do focus stacking (they try to get everything in focus).

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My takeaway so far is that I will be taking more single-shot photos going forward. However, as this separate stacked photo demonstrates, I also will continue stacking. Stackers out there, what are your thoughts and your experience with this conundrum?

It's hard to say in general, because there are many different types of subject and subject sizes. Often the lighting quality makes a lot of difference as well. In non-staged setups, the distracting backgrounds can be very well suppressed by using stacking, or one could use tools that apply photorealistic blur based on a depth map. But when DOF is required, nothing beats the level of control you gain with stacking, as your wonderful images demonstrate.

Thanks for sharing your observations, it can help a lot of others as well.

Cheers,
Bart
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 06:13:27 am »

Thanks for the comments.

Zerene Stacker has the same modes, one that does its best to preserve color, and a more detail-oriented mode that preserves fine detail, and for my work better than other software.

The absence of a low-pass filter does just the opposite IMO; it makes everything more natural. I would never go back to the filtered version.

I have a short tutorial on retouching stacked images here:

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/4/c/6/4c6193d44fe51bdf/Retouching_Stacks_V3.pdf?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d06ca803ed6c85e09f8&c_id=8384732
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muntanela

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 07:31:26 am »

The area out of focus of the inner flower in the first photo is very irregular and noticeably artificial,  it is much better in the single shot photo.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 07:54:24 am »

This is analogous to what happened when music CDs began to replace vinyl. The vinyl proponents claimed that because CDs are sampled-sound, that the sound that was not sampled amounts to something of value. Just because our ears could not hear it, something was lost, etc. That argument.

In the case of focus-stacking, the traditional one-shot photo represents the analog case and the stacked image that sampled, because focus-stacking is just that: sampling. Some parts of the image are sampled, while the rest is thrown away. However, with stacking photos, the artifacts are much more obvious than with CD or DVD sampling.

The result is what this post in reminding us of, the various tradeoffs between analog and digital, between a one-shot image and a stacked image. Perhaps some of you have ideas on how better to solve this or, better yet, perhaps some of you have actually acted and come up with interesting compromises. Let’s discuss it, if there is the interest. I’m interested.
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muntanela

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 09:02:36 am »

More than artifacts there is an imperfect blending with a patchwork effect. I was unsatisfied with Photoshop "stupid" blending, and its unpredictable errors and wanted to buy a focus stacking software, but if the results are these... The only compromise I know is manual blending, it's very boring, I know, and perhaps it needs a neurotical disposition...
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 09:53:00 am »

You may be right. However, this example was taken with a very sharp lens, but not one highly corrected, so there is a difference there. I will continue to experiment and see what I can come up with.
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 09:59:18 am »

Interesting. I do not do a lot of focus stacking but when I do I use the Helicon program and a CamRanger to automate changing focus planes by refocusing the lens

A couple of thoughts Michael:

-Are you racking focus with the lens or moving the camera and lens combination?

-Why are you shooting wide open when stacking?  Surely stopping down 1-2 stops will improve the performance of the lens, any lens, won't it?

-How tight are your distances between shots?

-While I am sure it varies with the subject and subject depth, on average how many images are you stacking (this and my question about stopping down relate to my third question and to the comment about the similarity between sampling in the digital music world and stacking focus planes.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 10:36:07 am »

“-Are you racking focus with the lens or moving the camera and lens combination?”

I do both, depending on the lens.

“-Why are you shooting wide open when stacking?  Surely stopping down 1-2 stops will improve the performance of the lens, any lens, won't it?”

Not with many of the industrial lenses I use, plus the new Zeiss Otus APO lenses are good wide-open. Shooting wide open with a fast lens gives me a very sharp, but narrow, depth-of-field with which to paint in any areas I want in focus, leaving the rest of the image in maximum bokeh.

“-How tight are your distances between shots?”

The increments depend on the subject, often very tight, but sometimes looser. Spherical object demand the smallest increments, of course.
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smahn

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 10:45:40 am »

I thought I'd prefer the single shot, but of course the bokeh is too wonderful on the stack. What I'd like to see (if it were my experiment) is a single shot at lower aperture, and a single Tilt/Shift shot.

I don't know what T/S options there are for the Nikon, but I suspect the right chip/lens combo for T/S might seal the deal.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 11:26:10 am »

Here is a quick and sloppy experiment. A shot taken at f/16 with the Zeiss Otus 55mm (with 8mm of extension) on a Nikon D810 and a second shot taken at f/1.4. I then painted in the f/1.4 as background to achieve better bokeh than f/16 would give me. It approximates what I am after. I would have to retouch it better than I have time for right now. How wonderful it is that this age-old physical law of diffraction, etc. has us still between a rock and a hard place. It gives me something to explore, if nothing else.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2015, 03:26:59 am »

Thanks for sharing.  In the samples you posted, I perceive the single shot to have more 'life' than the stacked image.  Both images are nice enough, but I prefer the single shot image at least on screen. Perhaps when printed bigger, I might change my mind?  I don't have enough current experience with the stacking programs and output but when I had used them, enough changed in physical size and shape that it wouldn't be possible to overlay for example the color of the single shot with the luminosity component of the stacked image.   I'm just wondering if there is a way to take the best of both files?
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2015, 02:33:01 pm »

Here is a quick and sloppy experiment. A shot taken at f/16 with the Zeiss Otus 55mm (with 8mm of extension) on a Nikon D810 and a second shot taken at f/1.4. I then painted in the f/1.4 as background to achieve better bokeh than f/16 would give me. It approximates what I am after. I would have to retouch it better than I have time for right now. How wonderful it is that this age-old physical law of diffraction, etc. has us still between a rock and a hard place. It gives me something to explore, if nothing else.

Very clever. Smart too. Thank you for sharing this idea.
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armand

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Re: Stacking: Caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2015, 11:16:04 am »

Very clever. Smart too. Thank you for sharing this idea.

+1

This I might be able to actually do myself
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