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Author Topic: Religious Freedom Act  (Read 62583 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #320 on: April 04, 2015, 10:06:56 AM »

$842,592.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #321 on: April 04, 2015, 10:23:35 AM »

On the other hand, the Other tend to explain the other Other's positions  as a result of a. mental illness (hence all the psychoanalyzing in this thread) or b. lack of education (hence the lecturing). There is no possibility that sane, educated people might have a different opinion. It leaves the Other in utter disbelief that two equally sane and educated people, when presented with the same facts, might interpret them differently. The expectation is that we all must arrive to the same conclusion, the same PC conclusion, that is. The inevitable result is totalitarianism, and that is where most left movements, which start with oh-so-noble ideas and lofty goals, end up anyway.

mezzoduomo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #322 on: April 04, 2015, 09:50:24 PM »

you mean when founding fathers did not consider females and negroes as human beings ?

"By the quotes, letters, and documents they left behind, it is clear that most of our founding fathers wished to see slavery ended, though they did not believe it possible for it to happen in their lifetimes. Some of them, most notably Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay, were very supportive of the rapidly growing abolitionist movement. Benjamin Franklin was President of the Pennsylvania society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery, which included Jay and Hamilton. The year he died, he signed a petition for the abolition of all slavery. He died before he got to see it become a reality. Alexander Hamilton grew up with a deep rooted hatred of the slave trade that fueled his work as an avid supporter of the abolitionists his entire life."

Source: Revolutionary-War.net

Do your homework, AlterEgo. The founding fathers were clearly hypocrites, since many owned slaves, but you're wrong in asserting that they did not consider blacks to be humans. From its inception, 60% of the early United States did not allow slavery, and perhaps you've heard of the Civil War.
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Plateau Light

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #323 on: April 05, 2015, 12:44:14 AM »

Well it appears to already be a federal law that was rewritten to a state law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act

Rand47

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #324 on: April 05, 2015, 11:44:42 PM »

Well it appears to already be a federal law that was rewritten to a state law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act


PLEASE ... do not spoil this splendid "dialog" with facts.

Rand
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NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #325 on: April 06, 2015, 10:30:35 AM »

The federal RFRA concerned the interaction of the Federal Government with various religious minorities.
Many state level RFRAs are close copies of the federal law and thus concern ONLY the interaction of the State Government with various religious minorities.
The Indiana and Arkansas RFRAs covered not only state governments but also any interaction between two private parties, specifically including for-profit corporations. The implications for employment law are significant. To name something that affects heterosexual white men, it would be perfectly supportable to fire a man who divorced and remarried, or to refuse to hire someone with a "Jewish" name, or to hire "only" Catholics -for a job at a bank or milling machine company or other completely secular for-profit company. The ability to actually perform the job is irrelevant.

Fear of the Other (stereotyped group)  is common and present in varying degrees among the population. It is part of the human condition, original sin if you will. It can range from a relatively minor bad habit (if governed by rational risk assessment for each individual of the group),  to the standard knee-jerk "implicit association" racism that is present in American society, to criminality (KKK) or psychosis (as part of paranoid schizophrenia). Believe me, having grown up in an all-white environment during the Civil Rights era, it took me a while to lose the "pearl-clutching"* white-lady alarm when dealing with black strangers, but after a while I got over myself, primarily by living and working in a city with a large black population and large black educated health-care workforce (ie, colleagues). Consequently, life has gotten a little more comfortable, and I have made and am making friends who I would not have expected to know when I was a kid.

asterisk: I love the movie "Hairspray", and there's a funny scene where the mother of a friend of the protagonist goes into a black neighborhood in Baltimore to yank her kid out of a record (remember those?) store. The mother is comically panicky, providing amusement to the neighborhood.



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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #326 on: April 06, 2015, 11:18:16 AM »

...It is part of the human condition, original sin if you will...

Exactly, Nancy.

And yet you want to change humans from what they are into what you think they should be, by any means necessary, including terror and "starving to death." Quite a Marxist concept, btw.

digitaldog

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #327 on: April 06, 2015, 11:33:31 AM »

The federal RFRA concerned the interaction of the Federal Government with various religious minorities.
Many state level RFRAs are close copies of the federal law and thus concern ONLY the interaction of the State Government with various religious minorities.
The Indiana and Arkansas RFRAs covered not only state governments but also any interaction between two private parties, specifically including for-profit corporations.
Exactly! It's a significant difference that as you point out, and allows a huge degree of wiggle room to potentially discriminate.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #328 on: April 06, 2015, 11:41:04 AM »

"By the quotes, letters, and documents they left behind, it is clear that most of our founding fathers wished to see slavery ended, though they did not believe it possible for it to happen in their lifetimes. Some of them, most notably Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay, were very supportive of the rapidly growing abolitionist movement. Benjamin Franklin was President of the Pennsylvania society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery, which included Jay and Hamilton. The year he died, he signed a petition for the abolition of all slavery. He died before he got to see it become a reality. Alexander Hamilton grew up with a deep rooted hatred of the slave trade that fueled his work as an avid supporter of the abolitionists his entire life."

Source: Revolutionary-War.net

OK, we have an indirect reference about 3 people who btw owned slaves ... and how many founding fathers were there ? at least 3 dozen  ;D


Do your homework, AlterEgo. The founding fathers were clearly hypocrites, since many owned slaves, but you're wrong in asserting that they did not consider blacks to be humans.

sure, some of them (more educated) were considering them humans, biologically so to say...  :D, that again did not prevent them from being slaveowners ... I am sorry if you didn't understand what I meant  :D ...

From its inception, 60% of the early United States did not allow slavery, and perhaps you've heard of the Civil War.

let me remind you that we are talking about "founding fathers" and 18 century... not about mid 19th century... and let us go back to 18th century - slavery was legal and practiced in each of the Thirteen Colonies, was it not  :D ? Vermont didn't when it joined US in 1791 = http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/hus-vermont.htm = "the first State of the Union to abolish slavery" ... so which "60% of the early United States" in terms of the actual states (and not some "territories") we are talking about at the time when (hint - no not early 19th century, not mid 19 century) "founding slave owners" did their founding acts ?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:44:02 AM by AlterEgo »
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #329 on: April 06, 2015, 01:40:27 PM »

AlterEgo,

I have no desire to split hairs with you and Google stuff that bolsters me and undermines you. IMHO, there's far too much of that on LuLa already.

I was reacting to your blanket comment that the founding fathers considered blacks and women as non-human. Clearly some did, and some did not. In 1789, there were 5 free and 8 slave states, and a greater number of Americans lived in free states vs. lived in slave states. Bottom line, among whatever number of 'founders' one might want to evaluate, there were significant minorities who were ardently anti-slave from the beginning (whatever year you think marks 'the beginning'), including those who hypocritically owned (and procreated with) slaves.

I think you wanted to paint this entire group (America's founding fathers) in a bad light, and I don't think that's entirely accurate. And, hair-splitting aside, the ensuing 50 years brought rapid and unprecedented social change to America, and that doesn't happen without a persuasive and committed group of leaders we generically call the founding fathers.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #330 on: April 06, 2015, 02:17:08 PM »

AlterEgo,

I have no desire to split hairs with you and Google stuff that bolsters me and undermines you.

just because you have nothing to say :-)...

I was reacting to your blanket comment that the founding fathers considered blacks and women as non-human.

absolutely they did...

Clearly some did, and some did not. In 1789, there were 5 free and 8 slave states

which ones ? let us see what actually was happening as of 1789...

1 Delaware = http://slavenorth.com/delaware.htm = "By 1810, some 78 percent of Delaware's blacks were free (as opposed to 63 percent in New York and 42 percent in New Jersey in the same year), and unlike other northern states, it had been done voluntarily, without legal requirements. By 1840, only 13 percent of the state's blacks were enslaved, and slaves made up a mere 3 percent of the total population. " = SLAVE STATE

2 Pennsylvania = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Pennsylvania = "Slavery ended in Pennsylvania in 1847, when the state legislature passed a law voiding the property rights of Pennsylvania slaveholders", "The first U.S. Census in 1790 recorded 3,737 slaves in Pennsylvania (36% of the Black population). By 1810, the total Black population had more than doubled, but the percentage who were slaves had dropped to 3% and 795 slaves were listed in the state."  = SLAVE STATE

3 New Jersey = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_New_Jersey = " New Jersey state legislature was the last in the North to abolish slavery, passing a law in 1804 for its gradual abolition.[18] The 1804 statute and subsequent laws freed children born after the law was passed. African Americans born to slave mothers after July 4, 1804 had to serve lengthy apprenticeships to the owners of their mothers. Women were freed at 21, but men were not emancipated until the age of 25.[19] Slaves who had been born before these laws were passed were considered, after 1846, as indentured servants who were "apprenticed for life."  = SLAVE STATE

4 Georgia = no need to bother checking, slavery till Civil War  = SLAVE STATE

5 Connecticut = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Connecticut = "Connecticut abolished slavery in 1848."  = SLAVE STATE

6 Massachusetts = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Massachusetts = this one was free by 1791 = FREE STATE

7 Maryland = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Maryland = "by 1860 Maryland's free black population comprised 49.1% of the total number of African Americans in the state"  = SLAVE STATE

8 South Carolina = no need to bother checking, slavery till Civil War  = SLAVE STATE

9 New Hampshire = http://slavenorth.com/newhampshire.htm = "Slaves were removed from the rolls of taxable property in 1789, but the act appears to have been for taxing purposes only. The 1790 census counted 158 slaves; but in 1800, there were only 8."... ok, let it be a little pregnant one = PREGNANT WITH FREE

10 Virginia = no need to bother checking, slavery till Civil War  = SLAVE STATE

11 New York = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_New_York = "In 1817, the state freed all slaves born before July 4, 1799 (the date of the gradual abolition law), to be effective in 1827. It continued with the indenture of children born to slave mothers until their 20s, as noted above.[6] On July 4, 1827, the African-American community celebrated final emancipation in the state with a long parade through New York City."  = SLAVE STATE

12 North Carolina = no need to bother checking, slavery till Civil War  = SLAVE STATE

13 Rhode Island = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Rhode_Island = " In February 1784, the Rhode Island Legislature passed a compromise measure for gradual emancipation of slaves within Rhode Island. All children of slaves born after March 1 were to be "apprentices," the girls to become free at 18, the boys at 21. By 1840, the census reported only five African Americans enslaved in Rhode Island."...  = SLAVE STATE

you probably can't comprehend that prohibiting import and making newborns free does not constitute a "free" state  ;D , likewise a slave owner is a slave owner - founding father or not...

so what do we have with the issue of WMD in Iraq actual slavery in those 13 founding states in 1791... oops... 1 free state (MA), one little pregnant (NH) and 11 genuinely slave states... eh ;D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 02:19:30 PM by AlterEgo »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #331 on: April 06, 2015, 03:17:53 PM »

Name-calling aside, don't you know think that boycotting anti-gay businnes is quite a good deal?
This pizzeria got almost 500.000 USD in a few days.
Eh? I thought the market was going to solve all the probles?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #332 on: April 06, 2015, 03:22:14 PM »

It is certainly fascinating to dive into all that historic information, though that would have very little to do with the thread subject. I do not see any point in applying today's standards to those from several centuries ago. Those guys lived in their time, with all the good and bad associated with it from today's point of view. Some of them were certainly ahead of their time in thinking, perhaps decades ahead, but it is hardly reasonable to blame them for not being hundreds of years ahead. We shall forever be grateful for them for what they did, not blame them for what they did not do. And what they did was certainly way ahead of their time in terms of basic human rights, abandoning the European divine authority doctrine in favor of "We the people..."
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 07:35:40 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #333 on: April 06, 2015, 07:24:41 PM »

Agreed that commonly held ethical standards change with time. Also agreed that slavery, women's rights, non-landholder's rights were controversial in the US Colonial and Revolutionary eras. I am not one of these people who downplay the amazing achievement of the Constitution. I don't think the Constitution was perfect, but it had the capacity to grow with the times. First the Bill of Rights, then the amendments extending suffrage to those who had been excluded in the original Constitution.

Slobodan, I have never advocated "terrorizing" or "starving to death" - my natural bent is ridicule.  As in:    ::)
Not buying pizza from some stranger hardly constitutes "starving to death" that business. And if various other strangers have seen fit to give $800,000.00 to the pizzeria, well, I just don't care. That's up to the donors.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #334 on: April 06, 2015, 07:34:28 PM »

... Slobodan, I have never advocated...

I often use a rhetorical "you," so no, I did not have you personally in mind for those extreme measures, as I already explained in several previous posts.

NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2015, 06:53:03 PM »

Yep, thread has gone on long enough to forget most of it.  :P
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michael

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2015, 08:18:26 PM »

I think it's time to close the curtain on this discussion.

Michael
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