What if faster MF focal plane shutters will be introduced to enable 1/250 sync?

[BJL]

I 'd assume shutters are not in house work, but procured from very few houses like Copal, no ?

I doubt it, especially for focal plane shutters, whose operation is highly coordinated with other parts of the body, and can represent a competitive advantage; I would think that they are designed and built in-house.

And after all, Copal does not even make Copal shutters anymore!

[Theodoros]

The laws of physics haven't changed in millions of years.  There have always been design tradeoffs that sacrifice one physical limit for another.  Sometimes new materials such as plastics or carbon fibers can be used to reduce mass in a shutter but always at a cost - manufacturing cost or durability for example - but our materials have to respect the laws of physics.  Accelerating a mass and stopping a mass requires forces and induces vibrations.  The faster you want the mass (shutter) to move the greater the forces and vibrations.  Big shutter + fast sync speed = big forces and lots of vibration.  It shouldn't be difficult to understand.

I don't think that anyone suggested to break the laws of physics, nor one suggested that it is an easy task that can be done without further research or keeping cost the same... But I believe that with today's knowledge & research on materials and if combined by lowering the mass of shutter leafs further by increasing the number of them, it is feasible at reasonable cost.

[Jim Kasson]

I doubt it, especially for focal plane shutters, whose operation is highly coordinated with other parts of the body, and can represent a competitive advantage; I would think that they are designed and built in-house.

And after all, Copal does not even make Copal shutters anymore!

The shutter in the Sony alpha 7 is made by Copal:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/01/the-a7r-teardown-a-look-inside-sonys-awesome-full-frame-mirrorless-camera

Jim

[BJL]

The shutter in the Sony alpha 7 is made by Copal:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/01/the-a7r-teardown-a-look-inside-sonys-awesome-full-frame-mirrorless-camera

Jim

Interesting.  I am tempted to say that this is what happens when an electronics company starts trying to make SLRs, and that I doubt a "real" SLR maker like Canon, Nikon or the like would stoop to such outsourcing.  But actually, this in part goes back to the Alpha system's Minolta roots; Minolta also outsourced some shutters from Copal.  So maybe FP shutter outsourcing is more common than I thought.

[telyt]

I don't think that anyone suggested to break the laws of physics, nor one suggested that it is an easy task that can be done without further research or keeping cost the same... But I believe that with today's knowledge & research on materials and if combined by lowering the mass of shutter leafs further by increasing the number of them, it is feasible at reasonable cost.

If it's such a great idea, patent it and sell it to the shutter makers.  I doubt they've thought of it [/sarcasm]

The same technology that has enabled FP shutter sync speeds to creep faster has also allowed leaf shutter sync speeds to do the same.  When FP shutter sync speeds on 35mm cameras were 1/60 sec or 1/125 sec, leaf shutter sync speeds typically topped out at 1/500 sec.  FP shutter sync speeds on 35mm-sized cameras are now often 1/250 sec and guess what, leaf shutter sync speeds are 1/1000 sec (or faster).  Still a 2-stop difference.

[telyt]

Interesting.  I am tempted to say that this is what happens when an electronics company starts trying to make SLRs, and that I doubt a "real" SLR maker like Canon, Nikon or the like would stoop to such outsourcing.

Nikon has been using Copal shutters since the mid-1960s.  AFAIK Canon first used Copal shutters in an SLR camera in the EF model.

According the Nidec (the maker of Copal shutters)

"A large number of these units are used for digital cameras of major manufacturers, and they have the overwhelming share of the world as the leading brand."

[BJL]

If it's such a great idea, patent it and sell it to the shutter makers.  I doubt they've thought of it.

That is my rather generic response, given that there are multiple competing camera makers, and I doubt the are all run by people who know less about their business than the average forum poster.  But with the issue of FP shutter speeds, there is a further issue: the place where there would be most benefit might be medium format getting beyond 1/125s (as opposed to 36x24 getting beyond 1/250s) but it seems that there is rather little R&D going on within the medium format companies; most progress seems to be "trickle up" from outside, like Sony's CMOS sensor.  With sales revenues probably around one percent of what the smaller format SLR systems bring in, the financial incentives or resources might not be there to push those big FP shutters much harder.

Can anyone point to the last improvement in FP shutter speed in MF, or summarize recent significant "in-house" progress or innovation in MF hardware, as opposed to what sensor makers have provided to MF camera makers?

[BJL]

Nikon has been using Copal shutters since the mid-1960s.  AFAIK Canon first used Copal shutters in an SLR camera in the EF model.

According the Nidec (the maker of Copal shutters)

"A large number of these units are used for digital cameras of major manufacturers, and they have the overwhelming share of the world as the leading brand."

To be fair, should have quoted my final more serious sentence, not just that somewhat sarcastic one!

So maybe FP shutter outsourcing is more common than I thought.

[telyt]

To be fair, should have quoted my final more serious sentence, not just that somewhat sarcastic one!

Yes shutter outsourcing is very very common.  Canon, Nikon, Leica, Phase, etc may each have an 'exclusive' focal plane shutter design, but in each case it's a Copal design tweaked to the camera maker's specs and made by Copal.  Much like Sony makes the majority of sensors, with CFA and other toppings tweaked to the camera makers' specs.  AFAIK Leica makes the shutter for their central-shutter ("leaf shutter") lenses.

[peterv]

Can anyone point to the last improvement in FP shutter speed in MF, or summarize recent significant "in-house" progress or innovation in MF hardware, as opposed to what sensor makers have provided to MF camera makers?

S-Magazine 1-2012 has an interesting article on how Leica developed and makes their own leaf shutters (they call them central shutters) in house. You could buy/order the paper magazine, or you can download it for free on the iPad App.

http://s-magazine.photography/ceemes/en/magazine.html

[Hulyss]

Well... I would have asked the inverse question. In my humble experience, LF's should be optimized and FPS forgotten. It is very nice and flexible to use a camera able to sync at 1/2000 without any mirror slap or curtain movement, like fuji X100, sigma DP and ultimately Sony RX1 (or Voight 667 at 1/500). I think we need to wait till we can get compact MF ala 7ii. We might see that within 5 years or less.

For that, Leica and other do it (but still, you have movements inside the camera even if your on LS).

I'm waiting a brand to pop out a camera without internal movement who work only with LS lenses.

This morning

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/03/30/phase-one-announces-the-worlds-smallest-80mp-medium-format-camera

I now think the door is open for a Mamyia 8 and that this discussion will turn to oblivion (because seriouselly, FPS sucks with high rez).

The question is : What part is the most expensive to change or repair ? A little Leaf shutter or a mirror box stuffed with lot of pretty complex mechanics ?

[BJL]

Some comments on the two replies so far to my question.

The Leica S system has indeed been the most actively developed in any format large than 36x24mm; in part out of necessity as it is still new, being the only such system introduced in the digital era.  Whatever the reason, Leica has put a lot more development effort into it than I see from any of the systems surviving from the film era (just Hasselblad and Mamiya 645 now?).  Even with its newly developed FP shutter and with its lower 30mm frame height, the focal plane shutter flash sync speed is only 1/180s, with Leica offering both leaf shutter lenses and High Speed Sync to go beyond that.

As to that Phase One announcement: leaving out all the bits that are not needed in a remotely operated camera is not a major or expensive technological advance!

Maybe Alpa is the other main innovator in camera bodies, with things like its contribution to the A-series.

[AlterEgo]

Interesting.  I am tempted to say that this is what happens when an electronics company starts trying to make SLRs, and that I doubt a "real" SLR maker like Canon, Nikon or the like would stoop to such outsourcing.  But actually, this in part goes back to the Alpha system's Minolta roots; Minolta also outsourced some shutters from Copal.  So maybe FP shutter outsourcing is more common than I thought.

we can just ask them (Lensrentals) a question - they seems to be nice people and they saw a lot of shutters in all kind of cameras, so if question posted to them they can answer...

[haplo602]

Will then Leaf shutter have a reason to exist? Focal plane (only) shutter cameras will be cheaper, lenses will be faster, simpler, cheaper & more reliable... 

When global electronic shutters get good enough, will mechanical shutters have a reason to exist ?

It's not only about sync speed ...

[BJL]

I now think the door is open for a Mamyia 8 and that this discussion will turn to oblivion (because seriouselly, FPS sucks with high rez).

What do you mean by a "Mamiya 8"?
Like a Mamiya 6 or 7 but with an even larger 6x8 format sensor?! A camera using Mamiya 7 leaf-shutter lenses and a roughy 645 size sensor?

[Hulyss]

What do you mean by a "Mamiya 8"?
Like a Mamiya 6 or 7 but with an even larger 6x8 format sensor?! A camera using Mamiya 7 leaf-shutter lenses and a roughy 645 size sensor?

Pragmatically, no. I rather think same shape but with handle and EVF or (but this will need a whole factory) making the body slimmer to follow the legacy of M6, M7, M7ii and range finder. Hard bet. Sensors will stay the same size for a while. We might see a 6x8 format sensor but not yet (I mean not yet like 10 years).

If the price of this camera is competitive, I'm sure some ppl over here will jump on it very very quickly.

[Chris Valites]

Pragmatically, no. I rather think same shape but with handle and EVF or (but this will need a whole factory) making the body slimmer to follow the legacy of M6, M7, M7ii and range finder. Hard bet. Sensors will stay the same size for a while. We might see a 6x8 format sensor but not yet (I mean not yet like 10 years).

If the price of this camera is competitive, I'm sure some ppl over here will jump on it very very quickly.

Take my money! I love my Mamiya 7II but I really haven't touched it since I started working with tech cameras. I would wonder if you'd be able to have the cooling and board layout space in something that small, without having the case balloon to be as thick as an old Sony Mavica though. The back technology we have these days just doesn't seem to be anywhere near able to fit into something that slim, or else you might have seen the S system be that narrow, for instance.

[Theodoros]

Mirrorless MF market was too narrow when film was around... It was a small percentage of what used to be a big market for MF SLRs... Now MF market is shrinking year by the year, day by the day... The maker that will "dare" to "invest" on MF mirrorless is for sure a dead duck... No point for it to exist at all... All it will ever do with respect to FF DSLR mirrorless is to (perhaps) increase quality a bit... Who cares? ...Improving quality (a bit) has nothing to do with improving photography...

[uaiomex]

I have high hopes that some manufacturer will come a a mirrorless DMF camera before this decade is over.

Eduardo

[Hulyss]

Take my money! I love my Mamiya 7II but I really haven't touched it since I started working with tech cameras. I would wonder if you'd be able to have the cooling and board layout space in something that small, without having the case balloon to be as thick as an old Sony Mavica though. The back technology we have these days just doesn't seem to be anywhere near able to fit into something that slim, or else you might have seen the S system be that narrow, for instance.

Because for me, MFDB brands are a bit on the "non investment " and "I take no risks" side. With the CMOS ships, cooling is less a problem. Phase just released a new "industrial" camera with back incorporated. It is two time slimmer than the previous camera and ... it is CCD. The size difference is huge:

Before


After


The 7ii is bigger or equal, volumetrically speaking
The Sony RX1, very tiny tiny camera, is full frame. Sony craft MF sensors ... logic say that it is possible that one day, sooner or later, sony will release a RZ1, the MF RX1 without any problem (battery maybe).

Mirrorless MF market was too narrow when film was around... It was a small percentage of what used to be a big market for MF SLRs... Now MF market is shrinking year by the year, day by the day... The maker that will "dare" to "invest" on MF mirrorless is for sure a dead duck... No point for it to exist at all... All it will ever do with respect to FF DSLR mirrorless is to (perhaps) increase quality a bit... Who cares? ...Improving quality (a bit) has nothing to do with improving photography...

You very wrong, by a large margin, but I take time to semi answer your biased affirmation. MF market is not very shrinking, it is transforming (and already transformed). On an another hand, photography generate less money than before so investment is slower for photographers. So the MF cameras are more and more RENTED, but they are bought by shops. Once the ROI reached, those shops buy a new unit and sell the used MF. This is a pretty stable market and I think some shop's owner can confirm that on this very forum.
Range finder 120 cameras are legion and was far less expensive (and heavy). 645,680 rf cameras have been sold like hot cakes for decades, more than MF SLR and the second hand market is awesome on it. It is still popular because of a simple esoteric fact: they are cheaper and lighter.

I have high hopes that some manufacturer will come a a mirrorless DMF camera before this decade is over.

Eduardo

Like a lot of people REFLEX MFs will still exist because of AF and more lenses options, MFDB will still exist because of technical cameras but, what is a FACT today, is that ppl want portable/discrete/tiny gear. Your high hope will transform into reality any-time soon and for that you can say thanks to Sony: Sony shake the market actually. You might say thanks to pentax too, because they shrink the MF price by a huge margin. They want people to stop "renting" MF but "owning" them. Then ppl will invest into their lenses (and you might notice that the new 645 lenses are absolutely not cheap).

So the whole interest in mirror-less MF and even fixed lenses MF is just huge. The threshold is the price and pentax/sony will just make it real (or push others to make it real). For example, if Pentax come with a fixed lens mirror-less MF, it will be cheaper than the 645Z. A LOAD of photographer will buy a unit. This is a mathematical fact proved by today market. Every ppl able to invest in a high end 35mm DSLR and lenses will have the possibility to buy MF (crop) at a cheaper price. A lot of units will sell, a real golden goat.