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Author Topic: Interesting post on "that other board..."  (Read 9735 times)

Rand47

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Interesting post on "that other board..."
« on: March 27, 2015, 10:23:16 am »

I read with interest a fellow's post "over there" (usually filled with not-so-helpful-stuff) that rang true in some ways for me.  It is too easy to get all wrapped around the axle over the gear side of photography - to the point where the "stuff" that should provide a broader capability becomes stuff that limits creativity.  This isn't exactly the central point of the post, but it was one of the take-aways for me.  In addition, I think this guy's experience is typical of what I sense at the root of a lot of what I see on photography web sites these days - people who have become addicted to technology rather than photography.  Since the craft requires technology "to do" this is a very easy slippery slope.  I read the "For Sale" section of this web site with amazement at the massive expenditures reflected, and now sold at a significant loss, by folk who are for the most part hobbyists.  (I include myself in this, by the way.)  That says something, I think.  There is a sort of squirrel cage of gear acquisition and subsequent sale fueled by the frequent release of newer and ostensibly better gear combined with a manic pursuit of "something" that isn't always about expression of our vision.   LOL  Anyway, just reflecting and thought some of you might find this fellow's post at least entertaining.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3817077

Rand
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 10:54:40 am »

It's quite easy to get stuck with the technical side of photography because it's easy to see "where to know" (that is, what you need to learn and what is for).

Much more difficult is engage non-technical sides (vision/composition/style/message and so on) because it's much harder to even define those sides and it's not so clear what to do to "get there".
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 11:05:34 am »

I've been photographing for some 60 years, and I think it was about 40 years ago I first noticed that every single time that I had "upgraded" my camera to a more modern and "sophisticated" one, the quality of my seeing took a significant hit, until I relearned what was important to me.

I still frequently feel the lust for the newest and greatest, but the camera that behaves like a well-worn old shoe gives me the best results.
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Isaac

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 12:28:23 pm »

… thought some of you might find this fellow's post at least entertaining.

The post is well done -- comic self-deprecation, with a feeling that many will recognize to some degree.

I agree with Diego, that it's simply easier to see technical limitations (although the dpreview post shows how well we can delude ourselves on-that-front).

It's much more difficult to examine and understand our own limitations, so that we may change through photography.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 01:11:07 pm »

I read the "For Sale" section of this web site with amazement at the massive expenditures reflected, and now sold at a significant loss, by folk who are for the most part hobbyists.  (I include myself in this, by the way.)  That says something, I think.  There is a sort of squirrel cage of gear acquisition and subsequent sale fueled by the frequent release of newer and ostensibly better gear combined with a manic pursuit of "something" that isn't always about expression of our vision.
Rand

Hobbyists photographers spending too much on gear and less on creating dynamic and interesting content?!

You haven't even scratched the surface. Posted this on another Lula thread but I feel it's appropriate to post it here...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1904321-colorimetry-research-cr-100-cr-250-experience-thread.html

Keep in mind these guys spend over $100K on equipment that doesn't create any content. All that gear and expenditure just for consuming content including our dinky little photos made with our $3000 camera rigs.

I don't think we have a problem here as photographers. At least we're making something.
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shawnino

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 08:50:22 am »

Good post by Lookingbill.

I must confess I overspend on gear, but in a sideways way it really motivates me to improve.

Suppose the image is crud.
I'm a logical guy.
It's very likely not the 36MP camera.
It's almost certainly not the fast prime lens.
It's not Lightroom's fault.

The only logical conclusion is that Somebody has to improve his craft :)
Good gear leaves me zero excuses when I underperform.
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Jimbo57

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 12:05:25 pm »

Good post by Lookingbill.

I must confess I overspend on gear, but in a sideways way it really motivates me to improve.

Suppose the image is crud.
I'm a logical guy.
It's very likely not the 36MP camera.
It's almost certainly not the fast prime lens.
It's not Lightroom's fault.

The only logical conclusion is that Somebody has to improve his craft :)
Good gear leaves me zero excuses when I underperform.

That ties in very neatly with my own rationale:

"If I own good equipment, the only thing I can blame for a poor photograph is my lack of skill."
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 02:59:46 pm »

To address the OP's linked dpreview confessional I was compelled to research this Sigma SD14 camera the ranter's having a hard time letting go by examining Imaging Resource.com full rez jpegs and have come to the conclusion he made the right decision switching to the Canon 5D even though it must've been very painful letting go of his "baby", the Sigma.

I couldn't examine Sigma Raw files because it requires downloading their software. But I can say with confidence from this confessional and similar discussions describing a camera's "tonality" I've now come to the conclusion most folks by and large have poor judgement in determining true color rendering and/or image quality.

The sample jpegs on Imaging Resource compelled me to download and edit them but to no avail due to the fact I can't increase saturation and bring out all that tonality on ashen looking color especially on IR's "Pine" image. I didn't see anything special about the color and in fact it made me appreciate even more my cheap Pentax K100D's Sony sensor which produces far sharper and more realistic color by comparison.

But I do understand the attachment to a piece of hardware by constantly defending it on account of others bashing it's poor quality. Sometimes you just have to let go.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2015, 04:28:39 pm »

I couldn't examine Sigma Raw files...

I'm not sure that looking at jpegs file is of any use is examining faveon's virtues and flaws.
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Telecaster

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 04:32:27 pm »

But I do understand the attachment to a piece of hardware by constantly defending it on account of others bashing its poor quality. Sometimes you just have to let go.

It's a fundamental tribalist error, made whether the particular piece of gear has serious issues or not. I belong to this group, therefore I must defend this thing. I'd suggest it accounts not only for most bad behavior in 'Net photo forums but, defining "thing" in a broader sense, for the majority of human antagonistic & irrational behavior.

-Dave-
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Iluvmycam

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 05:35:04 pm »

I wrote a review at DP for Leica M240. They refused to post it and banned me after I put some of my pix on my gallery.
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BJL

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assess cameras via "negatives" (raw) or final products (JPEG, TIFF)?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 07:04:07 pm »

I'm not sure that looking at jpegs file is of any use is examining faveon's virtues and flaws.
In the end, images have to be viewed and judged via conversions to display/print formats like JPEG or TIFF, so it make sense to me that "bottom line" comparisons involves the whole image production chain including conversions to those formats.  And perhaps the fairest comparison is done by using conversion tools provided by each camera's maker, giving them the best chance to present their cameras' capabilities in the best light.  I am skeptical of insisting on comparisons done with the same conversion software, because that software might be better tuned for some cameras (in particular ones from the biggest brands) at the expense of others (in particular with Sigma's Foveon X3 and Fujifilm's X-trans, with their unusual raw conversion needs.)
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: assess cameras via "negatives" (raw) or final products (JPEG, TIFF)?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 07:10:57 pm »

In the end, images have to be viewed and judged via conversions to display/print formats like JPEG or TIFF, so it make sense to me that "bottom line" comparisons involves the whole image production chain including conversions to those formats.  And perhaps the fairest comparison is done by using conversion tools provided by each camera's maker, giving them the best chance to present their cameras' capabilities in the best light.  I am skeptical of insisting on comparisons done with the same conversion software, because that software might be better tuned for some cameras (in particular ones from the biggest brands) at the expense of others (in particular with Sigma's Foveon X3 and Fujifilm's X-trans, with their unusual raw conversion needs.)

The only problem is that the "image production chain" that produced the images you viewed may not be neither optimal nor showing the strength and weakness of the faveon design.

For example, comparing the jpeg from a canon sensor with that from a Sony sensor you may not notice the striking difference in shadow noise.
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BJL

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Re: assess cameras via "negatives" (raw) or final products (JPEG, TIFF)?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 07:27:07 pm »

The only problem is that the "image production chain" that produced the images you viewed may not be neither optimal nor showing the strength and weakness of the faveon design.

For example, comparing the jpeg from a canon sensor with that from a Sony sensor you may not notice the striking difference in shadow noise.
I know that it adds that extra degree of variability, but that variability is there in the final print or on-screen image, so it cannot be ignored; that us why the only fair way I see around this is to give the camera maker the opportunity to make its strongest case, by using the raw conversion software and procedures that it provides, or a third party product that it recommends.  Tests should of course include difficult scenes like ones of high subject brightness range (so-called high DR), so such comparisons should include whatever resources and guidance the maker provides for handling such scenes, so to assess the shadow noise that you mention.

If the camera maker fails there, it is not much use buying a camera with an allegedly wonderful sensor and raw files that even its maker cannot turn into a good final, viewable product.

To me, what I propose is akin to judging a film primarily by developing and printing according to the maker's instructions, not by imposing some standard development and printing procedure, or somehow examining the _undeveloped_ film.  (Raw files are more like undeveloped film than developed negatives or transparencies.)

On the other hand, I can see why some tech. fans who are interested in exploring, comparing, and debating technologies, rather than assessing the actual photographic capabilities provided to them by various tools, might want to spend their time analyzing raw files.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 07:34:18 pm by BJL »
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: assess cameras via "negatives" (raw) or final products (JPEG, TIFF)?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 07:34:51 pm »

I know that it adds that extra degree of variability, but that variability is there in the final print or on-screen image, so it cannot be ignored;
The variability of the process is in the final print/image only if you use that process.
If you use another process that variability is not there.

Is exactly the same thing of the white balance: you cannot judge the color rendition of a sensor from a in-camera jpeg because the camera may have apply the wrong white balance.

For such judgement you need the raw file.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2015, 08:21:59 pm »

I've been photographing for some 60 years, and I think it was about 40 years ago I first noticed that every single time that I had "upgraded" my camera to a more modern and "sophisticated" one, the quality of my seeing took a significant hit, until I relearned what was important to me.

I still frequently feel the lust for the newest and greatest, but the camera that behaves like a well-worn old shoe gives me the best results.

Very true.

There is always an important learning curve, which means time, when acquiring something new.

It is not impossible to overcome, but you'd better be sure you are willing/able to spend the required time before buying new stuff. It does apply to some extend to lenses also by the way.

It is also true that photographers often buy stuff because of want rather than need, sometimes in quest of that magic silver bullet. I would lie if I claimed that that never happened to me... ;)

Then in the end what matters is to be clear about the expected benefit relative to one's work and to ensure that it is indeed achieved after the piece of equipment is deployed in production. I have found that this feedback mechanism helps controlling future buying impulse... no perfect though but it has, for example, so far prevented me from investing again in medium format digital, which is a victory in itself from an expenditure soundness standpoint (if not from a photographic outcome as well)!  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 08:33:09 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 10:38:16 am »

I'm not sure that looking at jpegs file is of any use is examining faveon's virtues and flaws.

I'ld agree with you overall, but I've inspected quite a number of downloaded jpegs & Raws from a wide range of camera models from P&S's to $3K systems and most of them render color quite similarly with expected image quality. Each has their slight nuance to WB interpretation and how they record memory colors such as blue skies, forest greens, a red bell pepper & skin tones but nothing that would distort color constancy as noticeable as I've seen in the Sigma images. I would expect to see scouring the internet at least one unedited jpeg off this camera that looked right as I do with most cameras.

However, I do remember years ago being quite impressed with the first or one of the early Sigma models examining a jpeg of a close-up of a woman's freckled face that showed a lot color detail and depth. What I saw off the SD14 was a totally different camera or maybe a color rendering engine.

One thing I'm sure of I wouldn't take that camera if it was for free.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 10:44:45 am »

I'ld agree with you overall, but I've inspected quite a number of downloaded jpegs & Raws from a wide range of camera models from P&S's to $3K systems and most of them render color quite similarly with expected image quality. Each has their slight nuance to WB interpretation and how they record memory colors such as blue skies, forest greens, a red bell pepper & skin tones but nothing that would distort color constancy as noticeable as I've seen in the Sigma images. I would expect to see scouring the internet at least one unedited jpeg off this camera that looked right as I do with most cameras.

However, I do remember years ago being quite impressed with the first or one of the early Sigma models examining a jpeg of a close-up of a woman's freckled face that showed a lot color detail and depth. What I saw off the SD14 was a totally different camera or maybe a color rendering engine.

One thing I'm sure of I wouldn't take that camera if it was for free.

Once again, you should check RAW files from faveon's sensor to have a more complete judgment.
But if you say you wouldn't take the camera even if it was for free I wonder how unbiased is your evaluation.




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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 03:52:45 pm »

Once again, you should check RAW files from faveon's sensor to have a more complete judgment.
But if you say you wouldn't take the camera even if it was for free I wonder how unbiased is your evaluation.

My problem is I can't find any good SD14 samples. Why don't you find me a finished SD14 Raw image converted to jpeg and posted online that you think has top shelf color rendering. I'll see if I can scrounge one up over at Pixelpeepers. They usually supply a decent Raw format selection. One other site I found with Raw downloads gave a caveat that did not recommend Lightroom (no reasons why, WTF!), but only Sigma's supplied Raw converter.

I shouldn't have to download Sigma proprietary software whose color engine renders the very same jpegs I'm not so fond of. I have no beef against any brand of camera. I chose my Pentax K100D back in 2006 because it was the cheapest DSLR with on body image stabilization. It has its color quirks as well but not as bad as what I'm seeing from the SD14 online and that's rare for me to describe of any camera when most of them deliver decent color.

So all things being the same...blah, blah, blah!...with all the freakin' competition out there I shouldn't have to have this much trouble examining a camera. Am I making myself clear enough for ya'!? Are you gettin' my point now!? GEEZ!

I can assure you I'm the least biased and most honest person on the internet. I have no skin in the game what-so-ever. Over 10 years discussing these sorts of issues I'll own that one.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Interesting post on "that other board..."
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 04:10:43 pm »

My problem is I can't find any good SD14 samples. ...
That doesn't change the fact that in order to evaluate a sensor you should have the RAW files.
If you can't experiment with them, how can you see how good the sensor is?

The shadow noise of Canon sensor about which I talked earlier is a perfect example: look at the jpegs e you wouldn't notice it.


I can assure you I'm the least biased and most honest person on the internet. I have no skin in the game what-so-ever. Over 10 years discussing these sorts of issues I'll own that one.
Well, if you said you wouldn't take the camera even if it was for free, let me doubt about the "least biased" thing.
On the honestly I have no intention at all to doubt it.
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