Leica delays S-007?

[bcooter]

This is the type of conversation I try to stay away from.

I'm not selling cameras or trying to move minds, I'm not paid for that and I'm definitely a pay for play person.

I also try not to damage brands based on rumor, or worship or well any reason other than to report a first hand issue.

That's just not important to me.

What I comment on, what I show, is based on what I use and my point is there is a lot of conjecture on this and other forums about what is "the best" based on nothing but reading the web, or someone else's review.

You know when the Nikon 800 came out the volume of "chatter" was so intense on this subsection and to me as big a turn off as the RED  forums I tired to  tune it out, which I've learned is impossible if your going to contribute.

I've rarely been moved by a forum post to buy something, but I'll admit the constant d800 noise really turned me off and though it didn't push me to buy a Leica, it didn't stop me either.

I could make a long list of why I bought a Leica, to most that's not important and that's cool.

To me it interesting that people think of Leica as only for the affluent.   When I put it on paper, it was a good professional option.

it iss the only camera that gave full functionality, including autofocus, to two other brand's lenses, and offered a dng file that allow me to walk over to any of our computer stations and open the file.

I love that and conversely loathe having to buy new software every time I add a camera.

I mention the RED's because I spend a lot more of my time shooting with them than any still camera and the REDs were a complete revelation to our work.  For the first time a company made a 35mm digital film camera that was affordable and gave close to the quality of 35mm film.

That was a huge leap that is difficult to quantify unless you work in motion imagery and more and more photographers have added or moved to some type of motion imagery, so I assume there is some relevance.

The strange thing is rarely does someone that  doesn't use a certain camera care why someone else choses to use, or worse just flame the brand because they learned how to type and their bored.

Why I show Imagery is simple.   That's what I spend most of my life working on.



IMO

BC

[Ken R]

The more I use my IQ160 with the H1 (and C1pro) the more I love that combination for Studio work and even location work. I was really bored of the Canon/Lightroom look. I do not love the Nikon color either. Yes I know one can manipulate almost any file to look like anything but the Phase system is so dialed to what I like that it makes it a pleasure to work with.

My point is that after a while one starts looking for different things. In optics its the same thing. So it is great to have options to choose from.

I know a lot of you here do not really understand this, maybe because you are so focused and wrapped up on the technical aspects of photography that you scorn at any subjective appreciation of photo gear.

Looking forward to seeing images made with the Leica S-007. Whenever it comes out.

Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is

[Chris Livsey]

Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is

For which I thank you profusely

[eronald]

The more I use my IQ160 with the H1 (and C1pro) the more I love that combination for Studio work and even location work. I was really bored of the Canon/Lightroom look. I do not love the Nikon color either. Yes I know one can manipulate almost any file to look like anything but the Phase system is so dialed to what I like that it makes it a pleasure to work with.

My point is that after a while one starts looking for different things. In optics its the same thing. So it is great to have options to choose from.

I know a lot of you here do not really understand this, maybe because you are so focused and wrapped up on the technical aspects of photography that you scorn at any subjective appreciation of photo gear.

Looking forward to seeing images made with the Leica S-007. Whenever it comes out.

Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is

thanks for your video, Ken. btw, if you don't like the SLR Lightroom look, you can use in-camera jpegs ...

Edmund

[JV]

Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is

Thanks for sharing!!

[paratom]

-lens quality
-smaller body with better ergonomics
-AF info on the chip-no need for AF fine tuning; no messing around with AF inconsistency
-central shutter for flash
-lens quality

[Theodoros]

-lens quality
-smaller body with better ergonomics
-AF info on the chip-no need for AF fine tuning; no messing around with AF inconsistency
-central shutter for flash
-lens quality

+ no need for DSLR anymore.... One system to serve them all...

[BernardLanguillier]

+ no need for DSLR anymore.... One system to serve them all...

It can cover a lot, but the lack of very wide, fast primes and fast tele lenses means that you typically still need a DSLR anyway, right?

On the wide side you could stitch with a normal lens to compensate for the lack of wide lenses, but I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Theodoros]

It can cover a lot, but the lack of very wide, fast primes and fast tele lenses means that you typically still need a DSLR anyway, right?

On the wide side you could stitch with a normal lens to compensate for the lack of wide lenses, but I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well.... maybe action photography is still not supported as well as with a DSLR, but one has to admit that with MF CMos sensors, the gap has narrowed significantly... I suppose that faster long lenses will start appearing as soon as future S models will be even more noise free at higher ISO and bodies will become even faster.

That said, I expect thousands of new customers for the S007 out of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers. Surely, they would like to (visually) differentiate themselves from the "mass" of "wedding/portrait photography" that is now offered to people, the new 100/2 lens seems to have exactly those in mind.... I also expect the second hand market prices for the Contax-Zeiss 140/2.8 & 210/4 to start rising considerably as long as the S007 appears in the market.

[AreBee]

Theodoros,

...I expect thousands of new customers for the S007 out of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers. Surely, they would like to (visually) differentiate themselves from the "mass" of "wedding/portrait photography" that is now offered to people...

I would have thought that the work of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers speaks for itself and that the photographers of it feel no need to visually differentiate themselves from the "mass".

[Theodoros]

Theodoros,

I would have thought that the work of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers speaks for itself and that the photographers of it feel no need to visually differentiate themselves from the "mass".

1. The better ones always want to improve further on their work... 2. The customers of them (in too many cases) don't have the aesthetics to appreciate better photography, they pay better what they think justifies the cost... 3. Most photographers want to add prestige on their work, it shows to the customer that they pay attention to the detail.... 4. Many photographers would love to shoot through  a large, bright viewfinder, it helps them to be more creative.... 5. The camera seems well specified for high quality video, for wedding photographers this ability is very important as they integrate their equipment for hybrid use having multiple solutions of maximum quality with minimum of equipment...

MO is that the S-007 will be the standard for hi-end wedding photography among the better (or the ones that will want to look as being among the best) photographers for all the above reasons. Let's not forget that there is a good number among the best wedding photographers that use MF film with Contax 645 camera for a part of their work... The S-007 looks perfect reason for them to sell all their DSLR stuff and integrate the S-007 (instead of an MFDB) in their existing stuff, with minimum cost (as selling the DSLR system can finance significantly the change), minimum of equipment of higher quality to be carried (very important for wedding photography), yet improving quality by a considerable margin.

[BernardLanguillier]

1. The better ones always want to improve further on their work... 2. The customers of them (in too many cases) don't have the aesthetics to appreciate better photography, they pay better what they think justifies the cost... 3. Most photographers want to add prestige on their work, it shows to the customer that they pay attention to the detail.... 4. Many photographers would love to shoot through  a large, bright viewfinder, it helps them to be more creative.... 5. The camera seems well specified for high quality video, for wedding photographers this ability is very important as they integrate their equipment for hybrid use having multiple solutions of maximum quality with minimum of equipment...

MO is that the S-007 will be the standard for hi-end wedding photography among the better (or the ones that will want to look as being among the best) photographers for all the above reasons. Let's not forget that there is a good number among the best wedding photographers that use MF film with Contax 645 camera for a part of their work... The S-007 looks perfect reason for them to sell all their DSLR stuff and integrate the S-007 (instead of an MFDB) in their existing stuff, with minimum cost (as selling the DSLR system can finance significantly the change), minimum of equipment of higher quality to be carried (very important for wedding photography), yet improving quality by a considerable margin.

You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...

As far as improving quality by a considerable margin, I am just curious what you base this on knowing that nobody has shot with the 007 and that excellent options such as the 5Ds will give access to a much wider array of lenses, including the Otus that lack AF but are probably at least as good as the S lenses?

Cheers,
Bernard

[peterv]

You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...

Weren't you?

I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.

Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.

pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:

Cons:

-The Otus line offers faster lenses

Pros:

-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available

-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing

-Leica S lenses offer auto focus

-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture (further up in this thread, Erik points out that the Otus lenses do have auto aperture on Canon and Nikon)

-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle

I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.

[eronald]

At this point I don't know what scares me worse -the shallow DR of the 5Ds, or the expense of the Leica 007- but I am afraid that I will have to pass on both because of a combination of demandingness and avarice. How sad!

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

AFAIK the Otuses have auto aperture.

It is quite right that there are only two Otus lenses, but there are more very good Zeiss lenses that come to mind, like 135/2 APO. The 25/2 and the Macro 100/2.0 are no slouches either, except the 25/2 having weak corners and the 100/2.0 having a lot of axial chroma at large apertures.

I have only seen a single comparison between the 100/2 macro on Nikon D800E and the Leica S2 using their 120 mm macro, in that case the 100/2 on the D800E had better corners and the S2 was better in the center.

Again, from what I have seen, the Leica lenses are not fully corrected for axial chroma, that is they show fringing on out of focus areas while the two Otuses and the 135/2 APO don't have fringing.

So, right now, I may feel that a high MP DSLR may give better sharpness than the S2, specially as it has live view, while the Leica S is limited to viewfinder focusing. That may of course change when the S (type 007) arrives.

One additional advantage of DSLRs is that they have a selection of T&S lenses.

Personally I am speculating on a 50 MP Sony A (perhaps A9) coming this year. The A7R is not what the doctor ordinated for me. I would combine it with the Mirex T&S adapter and buy the Zeiss 135/2 APO Sonnar and the Canon 24/TS lenses. I would keep my existing bunch of Sony lenses as they can be used with adapters on the Sony A-series.

I have no doubt that the Leica S system is excellent, and with the S (type 007) they will even have decent DR. But, I am pretty certain that high MP DSLR/Mirrorless will offer more bang for the buck, and for greatest bang we need to go with Phase One or Leaf.

Best regards
Erik

Cons:

-The Otus line offers faster lenses

Pros:

-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available

-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing

-Leica S lenses offer auto focus

-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture

-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle

I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.

[Theodoros]

You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...

How many are really world's top wedding photographers is one thing... Possible customers (out of wedding photographers) is another...

As far as improving quality by a considerable margin, I am just curious what you base this on knowing that nobody has shot with the 007 and that excellent options such as the 5Ds will give access to a much wider array of lenses, including the Otus that lack AF but are probably at least as good as the S lenses?

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't see "top" wedding photographers choosing ...another Canon (or Nikon) for their work! In fact I don't see any wedding photographer choosing the 5ds for the job (or other DSLR of that high pixel density)... I don't see them choosing a MF only lens either!

[BernardLanguillier]

Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.

pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:
...

I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.

Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?

I share your view about the excellent S lenses line up (with a question mark on the image quality KPI relative to the Otus) and have never written anything else, only that the coversge was limited compared to existing options for top wedding photographers, that I did clearly not limit to the 2 Otus, since there many other excellent options, both technically and from a look standpoint.



Cheers,
Bernard

[Hulyss]

The S07 will be the Germanic version of the 645Z. IQ wise, only Leica lenses will have an Edge... till Pentax churn out more new HD lenses (only two for now like Otus line). So going into S007 will be for the lenses. So yes, Leica have a better lens panel and compatibility. But pentax is working on it :

¤ HD PENTAX-DA 645 28-45mm F4.5 ED AW SR

¤ HD D-FA 645 90mm f/2,8 ED AW SR

[Theodoros]

Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard

I suggest that you define (in your own terms) "image quality standpoint"... To me (and most) it is highly questionable what it means... From an artistic POV, best image quality is the one that achieves the photograph that has been visualized... for some others it means how sharp a picture is... for some more it means "have the job that pays done"... for others it means "how much detail can I see"? ...for more others it means "have fun"... for some more it means "lets have a subject to talk in forums"...

There is no such thing as "image quality standpoint" ...see? It's pure taste that has to do with the appearance of the printed thing on paper... at least this is what it is for photographers... see? It's photographers who believe that "fat pixel magic" of 9mμ CCD backs "have something", it's others that think 33mp Dalsa MFDBs have the most faithful and color accurate result, it's others that like to judge "photography" with how sharp the leafs (or the stones) are in a landscape, others that look on how much "weight" there is on the clouds and some that think of how much detail there's on the bride's dress... Then there others that look on how lighting works on their pictures, how communicative the subject is, how much drama is presented, how much meaning there is presented for the recipient to appreciate the work done...

Never the less there is no such thing as photography without a print... Why? ...Simply because a photograph is by definition the print and nothing but the print! Now Erick (or you or anybody) may think that MY D800E is better than MY CF-39MS and he may also think that cameras are competed by their pixel count... one may also think that lenses are compared with how sharp they are... but at the end, a photographer chooses what is important to him... and photographers do photography... which simply means create photographs... which means printed images on paper! ...see?

[Hulyss]

"snip"

Yawn !