Leica delays S-007?

[Theodoros]

I'm Napoleon !

I'm not sure that your doctor agrees, but since his suggestion is to answer "yes" to your symptoms, there is no other way but to agree... 

[peterv]

Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?

Hi Bernard,

Yes I agree with you. I never made that claim you mention. We'll have to wait and see, is what I said. Though I see no reason to believe that the new S will disappoint.

I share your view about the excellent S lenses line up (with a question mark on the image quality KPI relative to the Otus) and have never written anything else, only that the coversge was limited compared to existing options for top wedding photographers, that I did clearly not limit to the 2 Otus, since there many other excellent options, both technically and from a look standpoint.

I absolutely agree that there are some excellent FF options out there. The probably soon upcoming Sony A9 and Canon 5Ds/sr will only make things better in FF-land for those who feel that FF is what/all they need. And Erik makes quite a few good points about the available lenses for 24x36. Indeed there are many good and useful lenses for that format, besides the two Otï.

Me, I'm happy with the results I get with my S2-P with S-glass. Yes, it's expensive compared to FF, and yes, a good 24x36 with a top dollar lenses can deliver images that are indistinguishable for most viewers.

Nevertheless, to me, the S system is worth it because in the past two years I can count on it to deliver, time and time again.

To each their own! 

BTW, nice photo, thanks for sharing!

[peterv]

AFAIK the Otuses have auto aperture.

Hi Erik, you're right of course. I'll correct my post, was thinking of Otus lenses on the Sony FE mount (spent too much time over at the FM alternative forum )

Again, from what I have seen, the Leica lenses are not fully corrected for axial chroma, that is they show fringing on out of focus areas while the two Otuses and the 135/2 APO don't have fringing.

I agree, especially the 70 mm can show some nasty axial chroma, especially wide open up to f5,6 in heavily back-lit tree branches and such. Luckily, most of it can be dealt with in Lr.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your comments!

I actually think the Otus would have automatic apertures on the A7x if used with a Metabones adapter, it even allows for AF. The Mirex adapter I am looking for allows T&S but has manual aperture, but it would work with my Hasselblad lenses.

Getting back to the Otuses I would believe that eliminating axial chroma is one of the main reason they are so expensive, the other reason is excellent performance at full aperture. Personally, I am interested in using something like 85 mm for short DoF type of work and an 85 mm lens with excellent performance at full aperture with no axial chroma is quite interesting.

The S (type 007) is not around yet, so I guess that we have nothing definitive about image quality. A qualified guess may be that it will be close to the S (type 006), but offer higher ISO and larger DR. Personally, I would prefer smaller pixels, as I am shooting at 3.8 microns on Sony Alpha 77 and I find that resolution a better match for the lenses I use than the 6 microns on my Sony Alpha 99 or the 6.8 microns on my P45+.

I think that the Leica S is a very fine camera, if one can afford it. But full frame 135 has some awesome sensor and some very good lenses matching those sensors at a much lower price. On the other hand, if perfection is sought and cost doesn't matter nothing beats MFD technical cameras with lenses designed for digital.

Now, cameras like the Leica S, Pentax 645Z and the Hasselblads may be good compromises, and a good compromise is not a bad thing.

I would assume that both Nikon and Sony follow Canon's lead into 50 MP pretty soon. To me those 50MP cameras paired with the best optics seem to be pretty competitive with the smaller MFD formats.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, you're right of course. I'll correct my post, was thinking of Otus lenses on the Sony FE mount (spent too much time over at the FM alternative forum )

I agree, especially the 70 mm can show some nasty axial chroma, especially wide open up to f5,6 in heavily back-lit tree branches and such. Luckily, most of it can be dealt with in Lr.

[Theodoros]

I don't think that the people in Leica consider pixel count as being an important factor for image quality, nor I believe that they consider DSLRs as threatening competition for the S-series. I don't think that possible customers will hesitate (or change their mind) to invest on the S-007 because of Canon's introduction.

In fact I believe that the 5Ds won't be a major success among professional photographers, I expect it to have some appeal on amateurs that think of pixel count as the most important feature on a camera, but one has to admit that highest available resolution for single shot cameras was "only" up to 39mp 7 years ago and photography hasn't improved at all since then...

[BernardLanguillier]

I don't think that the people in Leica consider pixel count as being an important factor for image quality, nor I believe that they consider DSLRs as threatening competition for the S-series. I don't think that possible customers will hesitate (or change their mind) to invest on the S-007 because of Canon's introduction.

In fact I believe that the 5Ds won't be a major success among professional photographers, I expect it to have some appeal on amateurs that think of pixel count as the most important feature on a camera, but one has to admit that highest available resolution for single shot cameras was "only" up to 39mp 7 years ago and photography hasn't improved at all since then...

Agreed and the same an be said about 22mp 10 years ago. In fact 22mp, 37 mp and 50mp for that matter, are not that different for real world applications. 150~ mp starts to reveal new things.

The quality of pixels, the tones that one can generate with them and the look of the image generated by the lens are clearly more important.

The S is definitely an appealing system mostly thanks to its lenses portfolio and the 007 should bring it on par with DSLR from a usability standpoint for landscape (live view). The availability of leaf shutter lenses is clearly a major plus for artificial light photography.

Now, for a bit less money I have just decided to buy a pretty nice car. I guess I'll have to make do with my pathetic DLSR a bit longer.



Cheers,
Bernard

[BJL]

Never the less there is no such thing as photography without a print... Why? ...Simply because a photograph is by definition the print and nothing but the print! ... photography... which simply means create photographs... which means printed images on paper!

Then it seems I have only produced half a dozen "photographs" in as many years, and the hundred of other images that I display on computer screens and share through other media are not photographs.  What shall we call them then? "Photographics" perhaps?

I do agree that the end product of photography is something displayed, or at least which specifies with considerable precision what display should be produced from it: at a minimum, converted to a format like JPEG or TIFF with color space specified, or in a raw sensor output encoding format that is accompanied by a specification of how to convert for display, such a color specification and Bayer interpolation procedure.

[tjv]

No referene to a photograph needing to be a print to be a defined as a photograph here , or in the OED. Personally, I hate looking at photographs on screen, but these days I'm in the minority.

[Theodoros]

ΙΜΟ a digital file is a "captured (and processed) image" waiting to become a photo-graph... I believe that the word photo-graph it self, explains its meaning.... In consequence, I believe that photography is the art of creating photo-graphs...

[eronald]

Hi Bernard,

 That's an exceptionally nice image. Can you say how you took it?

Edmund

Agreed and the same an be said about 22mp 10 years ago. In fact 22mp, 37 mp and 50mp for that matter, are not that different for real world applications. 150~ mp starts to reveal new things.

The quality of pixels, the tones that one can generate with them and the look of the image generated by the lens are clearly more important.

The S is definitely an appealing system mostly thanks to its lenses portfolio and the 007 should bring it on par with DSLR from a usability standpoint for landscape (live view). The availability of leaf shutter lenses is clearly a major plus for artificial light photography.

Now, for a bit less money I have just decided to buy a pretty nice car. I guess I'll have to make do with my pathetic DLSR a bit longer.



Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi Bernard,

That's an exceptionally nice image. Can you say how you took it?

Thanks Edmund, very kind of you.

The key component are of course luck (!!!), raw talent and vision (), but if your question is about equipment, then it was shot in the field with a D750 and a manually focused 85mm f1.4 AF-S at f1.4 near its minimal focusing distance on an overcast day (the same lens your copy you didn't seem to like that much ). Conversion was done with C1 Pro 8.

Jokes aside, the key really is composition between focused and OoF areas in the image in terms of patterns, tones and colors. It's a bit hit and miss obviously because the lens with the sweetest bokeh will not be able to manage equally well all the frequencies of background/foreground objects depending on their size and distance. Here it works pretty well. A bit less well in the following images that are decent but probably lack some magic compared the first one IMHO:





I know this is nowhere near the quality a 007 would deliver...

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Bernard, yes, I agree the principal component seems to have been luck As they say it is better to be lucky than to be good.

Anyway, which 85/1.4 was it, the old or the new? 

Edmund

Thanks Edmund, very kind of you.

The key component are of course luck (!!!), raw talent and vision (), but if your question is about equipment, then it was shot in the field with a D750 and a manually focused 85mm f1.4 AF-S at f1.4 near its minimal focusing distance on an overcast day (the same lens your copy you didn't seem to like that much ). Conversion was done with C1 Pro 8.

Jokes aside, the key really is composition between focused and OoF areas in the image in terms of patterns, tones and colors. It's a bit hit and miss obviously because the lens with the sweetest bokeh will not be able to manage equally well all the frequencies of background/foreground objects depending on their size and distance. Here it works pretty well. A bit less well in the following images that are decent but probably lack some magic compared the first one IMHO:





I know this is nowhere near the quality a 007 would deliver...

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, yes, I agree the principal component seems to have been luck As they say it is better to be lucky than to be good.

Anyway, which 85/1.4 was it, the old or the new? 

The new one, although I have had it for years now.

We should probably stop here before someone complains this isn't about the Leica.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

The new one, although I have had it for years now.

We should probably stop here before someone complains this isn't about the Leica.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeah, a post that doesn't have Leica or Otus or D810  in it somewhere is not a real post
BTW, why d'you own that low-rez body?

Edmund

[mezzoduomo]

Why I show Imagery is simple.   That's what I spend most of my life working on.



IMO

BC

Unbelievable shots, especially the wide angle with piano. Just stunning....

Congrats.

[Theodoros]

That later one with the girls and the piano is indeed a great image... Real art!

[RVB]

Weren't you?

Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.

pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:

Cons:

-The Otus line offers faster lenses

Pros:

-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available

-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing

-Leica S lenses offer auto focus

-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture (further up in this thread, Erik points out that the Otus lenses do have auto aperture on Canon and Nikon)

-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle

I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.

Peter,don't forget the leaf shutters,which are a major bonus to anyone that shoots with flash,and two of the S lenses are APO,the 120 and 180!!

Rob

[peterv]

You're absolutely right, Rob. I did mention that in two other threads about the subject, but forgot about it here. Two of my three S lenses have the CS. Being able to use 1/1000 with flash has saved me from motion blur very often, since I'm not very steady handholding the camera.

Cheers,

Peter